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Root _MrBirdMan_ is done

Truly all great points about open source... but in the spirit of open source, aren't these manufacturers allowed to do whatever they want with they want to do with it without complaint from the community?

No one is stopping you, or a manufacturer from creating a completely unlocked pre-rooted device running stock android... or from putting your own tweaks on it (Bing).

The fact is... Motorola is not the source and never claimed to be open... Google is.

Would everyone be so upset if the OG Droid was locked too? We probably wouldnt be having this convo

Without complaint from the community? Absolutely not. How else do we voice our preference in keeping these devices unlocked if we don't complain when they lock them? America is a free country, so in the spirit of being a free country does congress pass new laws without complaint from the community? The exact opposite is true, in the spirit of open source (the equivalent of freedom) the community is encouraged to voice their opinion.

The whole reason Android is where it is today is because of that freedom that the Android community enjoyed with their phones. If the phones had all been locked down from the very beginning, I don't think it would have ever achieved what it has. It would have just been an iPhone clone, not something revolutionary. Motorola was virtually saved from extinction selling the Android philosophy. And now they want to change the culture of the technology because the technology refuses to prohibit them from doing so.

But just because they can do it doesn't make it right. And anyone who has something to say about their opinion should not just keep their mouth shut simply because Android won't enforce a policy to keep their system open. Andy Rubin said he doesn't believe in drawing lines, but he said he believes over time manufacturers will figure out what the public wants to buy.

They will never know what we want if we don't tell them.
 
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Without complaint from the community? Absolutely not. How else do we voice our preference in keeping these devices unlocked if we don't complain when they lock them? America is a free country, so in the spirit of being a free country does congress pass new laws without complaint from the community? The exact opposite is true, in the spirit of open source (the equivalent of freedom) the community is encouraged to voice their opinion.

The whole reason Android is where it is today is because of that freedom that the Android community enjoyed with their phones. If the phones had all been locked down from the very beginning, I don't think it would have ever achieved what it has. It would have just been an iPhone clone, not something revolutionary. Motorola was virtually saved from extinction selling the Android philosophy. And now they want to change the culture of the technology because the technology refuses to prohibit them from doing so.

But just because they can do it doesn't make it right. And anyone who has something to say about their opinion should not just keep their mouth shut simply because Android won't enforce a policy to keep their system open. Andy Rubin said he doesn't believe in drawing lines, but he said he believes over time manufacturers will figure out what the public wants to buy.

They will never know what we want if we don't tell them.
Quit complaining before you get banned or jailed, it's not like we live in a democracy lol
 
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The whole reason Android is where it is today is because of that freedom that the Android community enjoyed with their phones. If the phones had all been locked down from the very beginning, I don't think it would have ever achieved what it has. It would have just been an iPhone clone, not something revolutionary. Motorola was virtually saved from extinction selling the Android philosophy. And now they want to change the culture of the technology because the technology refuses to prohibit them from doing so.

Unfortunately you might be missing the point here. Android is open source and therefore open to modification. Moto's app's on the phone are not. Motorola is well within it's rights to lock the phone down to prevent people from messing with MotoBlur. And that's my guess why that silliness is on the phone in the first place.

If, however, Motorola released a vanilla Android version of the Droid X then they'd be hard pressed to justify locking down the OS on the phone.
 
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So, Motorola made it pretty darn clear BEFORE 15 July about efuse and the locked down loader. And...people are pissed because? Because the hacker community arrogantly assumed they could crack anything those dummies at Motorola came up with?! People are pissed the efuse bit is doing EXACTLY what Motorola promised it would?

Great googily moogily, like it or not a developer delivered exactly what they said they would (regardless of whether you agree or not), and people are pissed? Who didn't walk eyes wide open into a DX? When is the last time a developer delivered exactly what they said they would? So, punish Motorola for delivering exactly what they repeatedly said they would....did I mention this is exactly what Motorola promised before any of us got the phone?

Am I in crazy town here?
 
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Maybe its my fault for not making myself clear. Am I pissed off at Motorola? No that's not the right phrase. You are right, they, as well as any other OEM is free to lock down their devices anyway they see fit. What we the consumer are free to do is say, "take these locked down devices, and shove em up ur ass".

It's the same way with congress. They have every right at this very moment to raise taxes to take 60% of your income and stick it in their coffers. It might piss you off, but that doesn't mean they can't do it. What all the people that such a tax hike would piss off can do however, is tell anyone who voted on that tax bill on the next election day, "good luck with your next job, we won't be needing your services here in congress anymore". And if the public didn't replace those members, then they would get the idea that the people liked paying 60% income taxes.

Since the entire Android community probably isn't going to demand this howrver, the only option left to those who do care about it is to vote for devices that aren't locked down by buying them. If Motorola wants to lock down some or most of their devices to sell to those who love Motoblur fantastic, if thats what the masses want these days then who am I to argue with the masses. But also offer some choices for the segment that doesn't want blur or a locked bootloader on their device. Because there are a lot of consumers out there that want to spend their money on such a phone. So who is going to step up to the plate and deliver that?

If not Motorola then we will have to take our business somewhere else. It may not be much of an option, but it's the only one we have at this point, unfortunately.
 
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Unfortunately you might be missing the point here. Android is open source and therefore open to modification. Moto's app's on the phone are not. Motorola is well within it's rights to lock the phone down to prevent people from messing with MotoBlur. And that's my guess why that silliness is on the phone in the first place.

If, however, Motorola released a vanilla Android version of the Droid X then they'd be hard pressed to justify locking down the OS on the phone.


All the code that hooks to the hardware is also the Manufacturer and they all think theirs is some super secret code no one else could write.
 
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While we're at it, I'm going to stop buying Volkswagens until they step their game up and offer some choices like a v8 hemi in their jettas. Shame on them for not respecting the small subset of consumers that want this feature. See the fault in this approach?

i see your point, however, I would say that since vw doesnt put a hemi in their jettas then doing so would be going out of there way to do something expensive to satisfy a small subset of people.

While I no longer have a Droid X I still like to follow this sub-forum to see what development is going on and the like.

the normal approach with android has been fairly open bootloaders, or at least the oems havent gone the extra mile that motorola has done. so in reality, motorola spent more research and money to stop a small subset of people (although by all accounts a group number) from modifying their phones.

I can't fault in them in that they have the right to do this I suppose, but what does it gain them besides animosity from a number of individuals. I posted earlier about the "evangelism" factor as I called it in promoting tech products, and if it hurts just a few hundred customers that are influential, that turns into a few thousand potentially influenced friends and family members. I have already had a friend come up to me and say, "since I'm not getting a Droid X or Droid 2 like you told me not to, which phone should I get?"

Motorola would say to that I'm sure something like theyre doing this to protect consumers from broken devices that cant be replaced because you voided your warranty. I have no statistical information to back this up but I would hazard a guess that more droid x were permanently bricked by their own 2.2 ota than by all the hacking done up to this point.
 
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While we're at it, I'm going to stop buying Volkswagens until they step their game up and offer some choices like a v8 hemi in their jettas. Shame on them for not respecting the small subset of consumers that want this feature. See the fault in this approach?
If you want a v8 in you vw you can do that, it won't brick your car. I've seen it done many times, mainly bugs though.
 
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So, Motorola made it pretty darn clear BEFORE 15 July about efuse and the locked down loader. And...people are pissed because? Because the hacker community arrogantly assumed they could crack anything those dummies at Motorola came up with?! People are pissed the efuse bit is doing EXACTLY what Motorola promised it would?

Great googily moogily, like it or not a developer delivered exactly what they said they would (regardless of whether you agree or not), and people are pissed? Who didn't walk eyes wide open into a DX? When is the last time a developer delivered exactly what they said they would? So, punish Motorola for delivering exactly what they repeatedly said they would....did I mention this is exactly what Motorola promised before any of us got the phone?

Am I in crazy town here?

Nope I'm pissed at how they have gone after the sbf and changing keys to turn it into a bricking device. If their efuse is so darn good what's all the beef with a few users themeing or rooting their phones and having a method to fix it if they mess up? They've been very aggressive with the lawyers and jusy seem customer unfriendly.
 
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just tell her that you are trying to get your phone to have the best possible voice quality so you can hear her lovely voice better. Then duck because something will probably be flying at your head.

No no ket me tell you how to work.

Take her out for a nice dinner, buy her some flowers, maybe a new rock. Wine and dine her then check into some high $$ motel and have a night of more drinking and crazy love making. Make sure to pay attention to her "special needs". Then after your night of fun and love tell her about the phone.

She'll still beat the sheet out of you but at least you got laid first :D
 
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If the phone is fine for you - great. Why do you guys come in here, knowing that people are frustrated at the current state of affairs, and preach?

I bought the phone knowing Efuse may never be broken but I'm still frustrated with Moto. Changing the keys was not called for. Google, ultimately, should be responsible for sorting this out. Every manufacturer should be required to provide a method for restoring bricked phones.

I'll play with my X till my contract is up (it's a great phone btw). But these shenanigans have left a bad taste in my mouth and I'll most likely move on to something else.

This is my opinion. Don't get too hot around the collar if you disagree lol.
 
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The real bottom line here is, you like the hardware and you want it hacked. Now that some of the development community is walking away your frustration has hit a boiling point. Motorola warned the hacking community that this phone would be more locked down than any other before it (witch they didn't have to do), the Milestone also already had been locked down. Motorola has the right to manufacture there products with whatever previsions they want (within reason) and they are within there license rights with google.

That being said, it is sad to see hardware manufactures turn there backs on the development community that may not have bought even 50% of the droid 1's out there but we did have a huge roll in why the Droid and g1 to name a few are so popular. I have said it before, but if you dont think "hackers" had an effect on sales then why did Verizon and Motorola launch that viral campaign on youtube where hackers could unlock magical powers in there Droid 1 to make stop lights turn green and hot girls fall in love with them?
Google isn't a saint but they are the lesser evil. Motorola definitely treated this community like a good one night stand. they got what they wanted from us and they chewed there arm off to get away before we woke up. HTC is also giving us the boot. We are just to small in numbers to effect there pocket books in a way to make them care
 
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The whole reason Android is where it is today is because of that freedom that the Android community enjoyed with their phones. If the phones had all been locked down from the very beginning, I don't think it would have ever achieved what it has. It would have just been an iPhone clone, not something revolutionary. Motorola was virtually saved from extinction selling the Android philosophy. And now they want to change the culture of the technology because the technology refuses to prohibit them from doing so.

Maybe I'm missing something but without even rooting and running custom ROMs, Android phones out the box are VERY different from iPhones out the box. The level of customization u can do on an Android phone without even rooting and running custom ROMs is unmatched compared to an iPhone thats not jailbroken.

Why is Android where it is today? Remember the general public is the majority...and the majority decided that Android phones are good; good OS and good hardware. It had nothing to do with it being more open than now. The general public probably dont even know what root and bootloader means.

I think we need to stop acting like these phones are no good UNTIL they are rooted and running custom ROMs..Android phones are good out the box...
 
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The real bottom line here is, you like the hardware and you want it hacked. Now that some of the development community is walking away your frustration has hit a boiling point. Motorola warned the hacking community that this phone would be more locked down than any other before it (witch they didn't have to do), the Milestone also already had been locked down. Motorola has the right to manufacture there products with whatever previsions they want (within reason) and they are within there license rights with google.

That being said, it is sad to see hardware manufactures turn there backs on the development community that may not have bought even 50% of the droid 1's out there but we did have a huge roll in why the Droid and g1 to name a few are so popular. I have said it before, but if you dont think "hackers" had an effect on sales then why did Verizon and Motorola launch that viral campaign on youtube where hackers could unlock magical powers in there Droid 1 to make stop lights turn green and hot girls fall in love with them?
Google isn't a saint but they are the lesser evil. Motorola definitely treated this community like a good one night stand. they got what they wanted from us and they chewed there arm off to get away before we woke up. HTC is also giving us the boot. We are just to small in numbers to effect there pocket books in a way to make them care

Then why are they spending so much time and money trying to stop it?
 
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While we're at it, I'm going to stop buying Volkswagens until they step their game up and offer some choices like a v8 hemi in their jettas. Shame on them for not respecting the small subset of consumers that want this feature. See the fault in this approach?

I actually own a Volkwagen Passat with a 1.8 liter turbo. If i wanted to shoehorn a V8 into the thing I could, because I own that car. If Volkswagen had a lock on their engines prohibiting their owners from swapping out motors and I was into Rally Racing and wanted the freedom to swap out motors then I wouldn't purchase any new Volkswagen's, and neither would any other Rally race car drivers. Therefore if Volkswagen wanted to have a presence in Rally car racing they would have to soften their stance on locking down their engines.

The answer is no, I don't see the problem with this approach. Because as it seems right now it's the only approach we can take. What is the alternative you suggest, just keep buying Motorola's anyhow? You are welcome to do so if you so chose, nobody is going to stop you. So I guess I don't see the point in telling anyone who doesn't want to buy a locked down phone that their choice is wrong?
 
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Maybe I'm missing something but without even rooting and running custom ROMs, Android phones out the box are VERY different from iPhones out the box. The level of customization u can do on an Android phone without even rooting and running custom ROMs is unmatched compared to an iPhone thats not jailbroken.

Why is Android where it is today? Remember the general public is the majority...and the majority decided that Android phones are good; good OS and good hardware. It had nothing to do with it being more open than now. The general public probably dont even know what root and bootloader means.

I think we need to stop acting like these phones are no good UNTIL they are rooted and running custom ROMs..Android phones are good out the box...

Actually most of them are bloated and running some customized BS launcher than makes them laggy and choppy as hell. And take this whole Bing thing on the fascinate . No one wants that(well maybe a few) and then they lock it down to prevent removal. Starting to sounds like iPhone to me. I've yet to see a phone that didn't get improved once rooted.
 
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I am very happy with my DroidX. I was well aware of the challenges to flashing it, before it was released. I have been happy with rooting and the semi-roms out there that that get rid of the worst of the bloat.

Would I love a true custom rom? Of course, I went through dozens on my last phone (Windows Mobile), I will take what I can get on the DroidX for now. The phone is a phone, so that is the most important part. As long as it works well for that and running the apps on it I am okay.

As a business owner (and a engineer), I understand (but don't agree) with Motorola's approach. If the user can't modify the phone beyond loading apps, then we will have less support calls and more importantly the calls will be with a known system state. Also, keeps faulty mods from having a negative impacts on the apparent quality of a Moto product.

So I understand the locking of the bootloader, don't like it or agree with it, but understand.

What I don't understand is the aggressive action of the lawyers. I would think the bad press would cause more of an impact on revenue than people hacking their phones.
 
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I know there is quite a large segment of smart phone users (Android included) who could care less about doing anything with their phone other than download a few apps, a game or two maybe, and leave it at that. I don't have a problem with them, I don't preach at them for being too damn lazy to customize their phone or for not owning it (making it their own) instead of living with a phone that everyone else has. Why would I care? Why would anyone care?

So what I really don't understand is those who come in here and preach at the community that does want ultimate control over their cellular devices... get over yourselves, why push your priorities onto someone else? I personally have never accused Motorola of overstepping their authority. In fact I've made it a point to acknowledge that Google doesn't prohibit such behavior, so both sides here agree that Moto is well within their rights to do what they did. Now, pull out your handbook and show us where it says we gotta like it.

This is how companies rise and fall, by way of consumer spending. They can do whatever they damn well please with their phones, I've ditched them before after the Motorola Q fiasco and went with Blackberry instead. Soon afterwards they were on the brink of bankruptcy... not because I jumped to Blackberry, but because the vast majority of consumers jumped to something other than a Motorola. They had failed to keep their customer base happy, and they paid the price by almost going out of business.

Now then, I'm not so egotistical that I believe my decision not to buy another phone with a locked bootloader is going to send Motorola back to skid row, all I'm saying is that if everyone who disagree's with this situation went out and bought another device that doesn't employ the same limitations as the X (and others), it might send a message to Motorola that there is money to be made in unlocked phones. They watch that sort of thing after all, consumer spending habits. That's how they decide what to produce and put on the market.

Microsoft is really trying to make a big splash with their new OS. I say if they're really smart they'll instruct the OEM's producing their phones to keep them open for optimization. Let the dev/hacker community take off with them and turn them into the next BIG thing. If they were to do so and Window 7 really caught on with the young crowd and those who want absolute freedom to do whatever they wanted to do with their phone without restriction, they could very well grow their market share and ride the same wave Android rode to the top when they were open and totally customizable.

It's just a theory, but if they were able to accomplish this... well nothing gets the attention of a company faster than watching a competitor eat away at their bottom line. And when they realized that the reason Windows 7 caught fire was because of the lure of their unrestricted devices, guess what? Ah yeah, money talks, bullshit walks.

Which is exactly what I've been saying about voting with my wallet. Nobody can argue with the fact that companies are influenced by consumer spending. The only question left is whether or not there are enough of us to make a dent at all. It's hard to answer that question now. We'll see what the landscape looks like in 2 or 3 years. If there were enough of us to make a difference we'll see the effects in what companies like Motorola and HTC are offering on the market at that time.
 
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