An analysis of HTC's battery charging issues (Incredible)

[Gamesoul Master]

@sdrawkcab25: Thank you for that link. I've seen various stances on this situation, and while I knew that Lithium-Ion batteries operate as indicated in the first post of that thread, seeing all these "conditioning" suggestions from so many people had started to cast doubt on what I thought I knew.

Now I feel reaffirmed with what I knew and can breath easy again. I just got my Incredible (was a Sprint HTC Hero user for the last 1+ year), and in researching everything about it on here, I kept coming across this inaccurate battery information and started to have doubts. And while maybe there is something odd going on with how the Incredible charges/uses the battery, there is no denying the facts of how Lithium-Ion works.

With everything I've read, it seems the best thing to do is (as it always was) to charge my phone every night and not worry about it (beyond making sure not to let my battery get completely dead).

 

[Joe Eris]

You sir, are a genius. And thank you for serving our country.
I think what I may try, is buying the external charger and just pull my battery every night.

You just said exactly what I was thinking

 

[TheLurg1687]

You just said exactly what I was thinking

Same! Though not sure what one to get..

 

[Loner]

I have a DI with 2.2 with device time August 16, 2010 5:01 A.M. according to my systems panel info. I bought it Oct. 1. I recently charged it without bump charging. When disconected it regestired a charge of 100% on system panel. I played with some widgets and updated weather using the 3g mobile. At 2 and a half hours, it still registered a 100% charge and at 6 hours it had 99%. Just my singe personal observation.

 

[trowpa]

FWIW - this is the first phone i have ever owned that does not run off of the ac while plugged in. It is also the first phone that will not charge to 100% while plugged in.

Definitely no working the way it should.

 

[euph_22]

FWIW - this is the first phone i have ever owned that does not run off of the ac while plugged in. It is also the first phone that will not charge to 100% while plugged in.

Definitely no working the way it should.

Actually IT IS working the way it should, this was how HTC designed the charge circuit.

 

[Member110111]

Actually IT IS working the way it should, this was how HTC designed the charge circuit.

I think that might just be how they are trying to sell the problem. Why would they have designed only the Incredible and Evo to do that but not any of their other phones?

 

[sdrawkcab25]

HTC's mindset is probably better safe than sorry, it's better to have an undercharged battery than an overcharged possibly dangerous battery...who knows but it's definitely more likely that's the way the charging mechanism was designed than it is to believe they are going to "repair" everyones phone.

PS from other posts I've read on hear, you are better off taking the complaining to Verizon as they are likely to send you a free extended battery which will give you way more battery life than bump charging will.

 

[euph_22]

I think that might just be how they are trying to sell the problem. Why would they have designed only the Incredible and Evo to do that but not any of their other phones?

No. Unless every engineer at HTC failed "Physics 2", "Intro to Circuit Design" AND every single EE and Physics course afterwards, it's designed that way.

And they would design the Incredible and Evo that way, as opposed to their other phones because they're NEWER. MANY phones, and laptops, and other electronics are switching from the older charging circuit design to the newer one. It significantly improves the operating life of the battery.

HTC's mindset is probably better safe than sorry, it's better to have an undercharged battery than an overcharged possibly dangerous battery...who knows but it's definitely more likely that's the way the charging mechanism was designed than it is to believe they are going to "repair" everyones phone.

PS from other posts I've read on hear, you are better off taking the complaining to Verizon as they are likely to send you a free extended battery which will give you way more battery life than bump charging will.

Right on. They designed it that way, to improve the life of the battery. Also, running without the battery runnings the risk of accidentally shorting something.

 

[simshaun]

I've got the same issue as Medion mentioned earlier. I leave my phone on the charger overnight. When I wake up, it says 100% charge. Pull it off the charger and its at ~87% within a couple minutes (will have to see exactly how long it takes tomorrow). After that, it hardly drains at all until I start using it.

 

[Member110111]

No. Unless every engineer at HTC failed "Physics 2", "Intro to Circuit Design" AND every single EE and Physics course afterwards, it's designed that way.

And they would design the Incredible and Evo that way, as opposed to their other phones because they're NEWER. MANY phones, and laptops, and other electronics are switching from the older charging circuit design to the newer one. It significantly improves the operating life of the battery.



Right on. They designed it that way, to improve the life of the battery. Also, running without the battery runnings the risk of accidentally shorting something.

HTC's new phones don't experience the problem. MyTouch 4G, Mytouch Slide, G2, etc. So they must have thought it was a good idea for about 5 minutes.

 

[pwsfinest]

I'm just going to point everyone to this thread, pay attention to the posts by Sabrewings as he actually has the equipment to test the voltages coming off the battery when on and off the charger and explains all of the things people are complaining about.
http://androidforums.com/incredible-tips-tricks/69534-battery-charging-myths.html

Why don't you pay attention to JoeProcopio's post where he actually posts the numbers?

"If you charge your phone while powered on, the battery will charge to 4 volts...it will not reach the full 4.2 volts...i took my readings as soon as the phone hit green, powered it down, took the battery out, took the reading.....i then proceeded to bump charge the phone...powered off...when it hit green again, i took another reading...4.15...so bump charging the battery does indeed charge the battery more than just regular charging with the power on. I did my testing with 2 separate batteries, and the results were consistent."

If the Inc DOES fully charge when turned on and plugged in (but starts discharging as soon as it's fully charged, as you claim) then why doesn't HTC (or Cyanogen or anyone else) just fix this by automatically "bump" charging when the battery drops to 95% and still plugged in? This way, I never have less than 95% regardless of how I charge and it would eliminate me having to turn it off for 30 mins each morning to let it finish charging.

Furthermore, if what you say is true, if I charge my phone while on and don't unplug it, then eventually the battery would die and the phone would shut off even though I have it plugged in?

 

[gruss]

I gave up arguing about it with him, I have proof, and the link he posts doesn't even dispute it? Whatever pick up a spare battery and an external charger and swap when low. Don't know why I didn't start doing this with phones a long time ago!

 

[sdrawkcab25]

Wasn't really disputing what anyone said, was just pointing out that the things people are complaining about aren't really issues. People are making a huge deal out of 3% or 4% battery, when you account for the normal loss of a lithium-ion battery. The fact remains HTC/Verizon will not fix the "problem". You are better off complaining to verizon and having them send you a free extended battery, it is easier and better than bump charging. HTC erred on the side of caution to prevent over charged batteries.
@pwsfinest the battery doesn't stop charging forever, once the phone hits a certain voltage, it starts charging again, this has been proven by many people, if you take the phone off the charger the instant it turns green you will notice the same battery drainage as if you had bump charged, the cut off for charging again seems to be different for some people though. That's why some people's phone drop to 92% right off the charger and others only drop to 95%.

Seriously people do your own research on lithium batteries and the way they charge/discharge and how the battery left is calculated (it's really just an educated guess) before just feeding into the "science" people post on hear. One phone might decide 2.9 volts is 0% and another might have 3.2 volts be 0%.

 

[pwsfinest]

I'd LOVE a 3% or 4% drop in battery! But it's not. Everyone is complaining about a 10%-15% drop within the first 10 to 15 mins. I only get a 3% loss if I bump charge. I NEVER see 100%.

If it's as simple as changing the software to have the phone recharge at 95% or 98%, then why hasn't someone already changed it in a ROM? I've read just about every article I can find on lithium-ion batteries (some of the best information is at Charging lithium-ion batteries) and I'm aware of the rapid discharge at the top and bottom of the discharge spectrum. However, it has been shown (even in the link you gave us) that the battery never reaches 4.2v (full charge). So if I'm only starting at 4.0v and it cuts off at 3.0v (for argument's sake) to protect the battery, then I'm already losing 17% of by battery right off the bat and that's BEFORE I lose top charge that's inherent with lithium-ion batteries.

Charging only to 4.10V reduced the capacity by 10% but provides a longer service life. Maybe HTC did this to "protect the battery", however, it's also better to charge at .5A instead of 1A and doesn't add that much more charging time. The HTC charger is 1A, so if they were so concerned about battery protection, why 1A?

In the end, for some reason the battery gets a better charge when the phone is turned off or charged outside of the phone, therefor, there is a problem with some part of the charging process from within the phone. This is the "problem" people are complaining about. We should be able to charge the phone with it on, to full capacity, without having to do all the "bump" charging crap to add 2-3 more hours of phone usage.

 

[sdrawkcab25]

I'm not going to deny what you are experiencing, you might very well have a problem with your phone. But I'm on my second incredible and I own another, and I have zero need to bump charge any of them, I experience a 3-5% drop when unplugged. I don't drop to 89% for at least an hour, sometimes longer.
The problem people are complaining about is obviously hardware related and not a software flaw, which leads more credence to the fact it was intentional and won't be fixed.

 

[Medion]

@sdrawkcab25

You're missing the point still. The perceived issues with charging have nothing to do with the flaws inherent to lithium-ion. The battery could be made of rainbows and sunshine for all I care. The flaw is in the manner in which the Incredible (device, sans battery) actively charges whatever battery you choose to insert. It's well documented.

 

[sdrawkcab25]

@medion
As stated I don't experience the issues you have and neither do any of the 4 incredibles(2 amoled, 2 slcd) I have physical access to. So either your phone is manufactured wrong or the ones I've tested are.
I can only report on what I've seen, just like you have, so as far as i'm concerned we are comparing apples and oranges now.
Any comments I made about the lithium-ion batteries and their charging behaviors weren't directed at you only. It's obvious you are experiencing issues further than what is explained by the behavior of li-ion batteries. Those comments are for EVERYONE. Everybody doesn't know how batteries work and may think they are having a problem and they really aren't, and not everyone is experiencing the issues you state in your posts.

 

[gruss]

Wow! 4 incrdibles that don't drop 8 to 12 % in a few minutes? I wonder if it has something to do with the first builds? The 3 that I have seen all behave exactly like mine. I don't dispute the Li ion battery stuff, just weird the behavior differs so much.

 

[euph_22]

Wow! 4 incrdibles that don't drop 8 to 12 % in a few minutes? I wonder if it has something to do with the first builds? The 3 that I have seen all behave exactly like mine. I don't dispute the Li ion battery stuff, just weird the behavior differs so much.

It's possible his 4 batteries are more accurately calibrated than your's. Try recalibrating (Let the battery run down entirely, and then let it charge completely). That will probably help.

 

[gruss]

It's possible his 4 batteries are more accurately calibrated than your's. Try recalibrating (Let the battery run down entirely, and then let it charge completely). That will probably help.

been there done that...please see above where i compared battery charged in eris vs inc as well

 

[pwsfinest]

My wife got an inc the same time I did (albeit I got mine from the store and she got hers shipped) the day they came out. Hers has never had the same battery problems mine has. We both have the 1750 batteries from Seidio. She just got 28 hours of regular (moderate) use out of hers and just plugged it in with 24% battery remaining. I'm lucky to get 20 hours of use until shutoff WITH a bump charge. She NEVER has to bump charge hers. So there is obviously a problem with some of the phones. Whether or not HTC will ever acknowledge the problem (let alone FIX it), is what everyone is complaining about. It's not the battery. I do believe though, that if the world ran on rainbows and sunshine, it would be a much happier place.

 

[cortecds]

My wife got an inc the same time I did (albeit I got mine from the store and she got hers shipped) the day they came out. Hers has never had the same battery problems mine has. We both have the 1750 batteries from Seidio. She just got 28 hours of regular (moderate) use out of hers and just plugged it in with 24% battery remaining. I'm lucky to get 20 hours of use until shutoff WITH a bump charge. She NEVER has to bump charge hers. So there is obviously a problem with some of the phones. Whether or not HTC will ever acknowledge the problem (let alone FIX it), is what everyone is complaining about. It's not the battery. I do believe though, that if the world ran on rainbows and sunshine, it would be a much happier place.

Usage? My wife has a droid but she hardly uses it, compared to how often and how much I use my dinc.

 

[msjulie]

Just thought I would add something I'd heard before but just personally experienced. Normally my day includes being around wifi 90% of the time and so my phone is wifi-connected basically all the time. This holiday week I was at homes w/o wifi (or wifi I was not connected to) with the phone wifi still on. Everyone says the hunting for a connection costs battery; I add a resounding YES to that. I could almost see it draining and couldn't figure out what was going on... so first "fix" was to shut it off and that helped, later I just got connected.

The difference is really night and day.

Details on my phone: rooted, running stock 2.2 (no OTA installed, just the new kernel from the update), and setCPU to back down the processor when asleep.

Happy T day tomorrow..

 

[Deleted User]

Just thought I would add something I'd heard before but just personally experienced. Normally my day includes being around wifi 90% of the time and so my phone is wifi-connected basically all the time. This holiday week I was at homes w/o wifi (or wifi I was not connected to) with the phone wifi still on. Everyone says the hunting for a connection costs battery; I add a resounding YES to that. I could almost see it draining and couldn't figure out what was going on... so first "fix" was to shut it off and that helped, later I just got connected.

The difference is really night and day.

Details on my phone: rooted, running stock 2.2 (no OTA installed, just the new kernel from the update), and setCPU to back down the processor when asleep.

Happy T day tomorrow..

I hate using WiFi. I had my phone in my pocket for 9 hours straight with WiFi on (not supposed to use phones at work) 100% at 8 AM and DEAD by 5 PM. I am doing what ever I have to do to keep this phone usable until VZW gets some phones with 4g, ≥ 1.0 GHz, ≥ 4.0" screen, and front facing camera. Hopefully the Incredible HD will be better as far as charging goes, it is rumored to be 4G with 4.3" screen and maybe even a FFC.