An issue destorying our country.


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  1. Snow_Fox

    Snow_Fox Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

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    Ladies and Gentlemen.. I am writing on an issue that I want anyone reading to seriously consider. Unfortunately many people do not think rationally on this subject.. why should they? They have been told what to think about it since they were in 5th grade or even sooner. They have seen countless statics and information everywhere about it and in general there is no real reason to think otherwise.

    From 1920 to 1933 in the United States of America the creation, sale and consumption of alcohol was deemed illegal. During this time crime rates soared higher than ever, Thugs were able to kill policemen and afford better weapons than the cops were given. Corruption ran rampant within the government. Due to the fact that alcohol was illegal and in high enough demand.. there were huge profits to be made from bootlegging it. What makes this situation even worse is that once illegal.. more potent alcohol became an even higher seller meaning it was the most profitable, thus bootleggers were even more inclined to make what was most potent in order to make even more money. For many of you I may be speaking history you are already aware of for the rest of you I would like to say that the situation got so bad that prohibition ended.

    How does this affect us today? We are in the exact same position right now as we were back then, although you could argue it is even worse. Right now there is a "war on drugs" being consistently waged. The war on drugs is highly detrimental and destructive in several ways.

    The war on drugs has no positive effects at the moment. 13 billion dollars spent in the course of a year to combat drugs is a lot of money. Up till now I have no included any links because I do not want you to just take my word for it.. or click a link to some website.. I want you to research this issue yourselves.. but, I do want to back up my 13 billion dollar point Office of National Drug Control Policy -- Publications -- Budget FY 2009 . That is 13 billion dollars that is for all intents and purposes wasted on a yearly basis however, that is not all the money that is lost. Because drugs can not be sold legally taxes can not be collected off of them which creates further loss.

    In addition to creating loss on a financial level for our country drugs being illegal creates more crime than it stops believe it or not. Due to drugs being illegal, there is incentive for drug cartels to come into the country illegally. These cartels are more powerful than I think the average person understands.. These cartels have done such horrible things that I really don't want to go into details.. However, for those of you with the stomach.. look up columbian necktie. I will say this... Drug cartels have paid off police in mexico.. and if cops don't accept payment their heads were cut off and placed on pikes outside police stations. There has been more than one innocent caught in the crossfire here. So long as drugs are illegal these people have a source of income that is probably more valuable than gold because, they have NO competition so they can charge whatever prices they want to meaning they can afford whatever weapons they want.

    Now at this point.. I am sure some of you probably think I am either A. crazy or B. some addict preaching for his own personal cause. I am neither. I do not drink alcohol, nor smoke cigarettes or marijuana. I do not snort coke or meth nor do I inject heroine, I do not swallow "x". Now.. I did lie in some fashion when I said I'm not an addict.. I can't get by without some coffee, sweat tea or sweet food on a pretty regular basis.. and I am an avid gamer way past what I should be. However, the point I am attempting to make is this. I have *nothing* personal to gain from legalizing any one of those drugs. Alcohol kills 99.9% of bacteria and it is currently legal to consume it. Alcohol is one of the few substances in the world that will kill 99.9% of bacteria and people drink it as if it were perfectly fine and there were no repercussions what so ever.

    Now, I know some of you out there at this point are probably outraged... "What if someone does drugs and drives!" and "what about the chaos that will be caused by people doing drugs" and "what about all the negative effects on the human body!

    First. If someone is going to inject heroine and drive.. they probably already do it. If your a responsible law abiding citizen and you do heroine, odds are your not going to drive. If your an addict who is already breaking the law to get a fix.. nothing in the world is going to stop you from driving.

    Next. A lot of people out there seem to have a belief that if drugs are legalized, everyone will turn into deranged maniacs bent on getting the next fix. There are a lot of misconceptions about the addictiveness of drugs. *IF* drugs were so addictive that you could become instantly addicted and willing to do whatever it takes to get more.. why do drug deals not hold a gun to your head and force you to try the drug once? bam.. you'd be hook'd for life.

    Finally about the negative effects on the human body.

    This is a major topic of interest and should be thought about heavily. I am not encouraging everyone in the world to go do whatever feels good. I am encouraging people to be accepting of others to make whatever choice they want to with their body. I Choose to carry a cell phone around which may or may not have long term effects on my health. Millions of women tan either in the sun or a tanning booth which may cause cancer, Every people drive automobiles which if they are uncareful will kill not only themselves but, innocent people as well. Are there negative effects to drugs? ABSOLUTELY! THERE IS NO DENYING THIS FACT! However, how severe are the effects? probably less than what you would imagine. In experiments rats were given the option between administration of heroine and food... They usually ended up killing themselves. Now.. many of you will read that and say "well what more proof do you need heroine is bad?!".. to which I will reply this. A large number of people have played video games until they died. It is easy to say "addiction" is the problem.. but, any given addiction is a symptom of another problem. What was never looked at in the experiment with the rats was "if they are given food and heroine will they still eat?"

    Now I want to point out a few things about drugs and health besides just the damage they may possibly do to your body. At the moment there is huge incentive to mix drugs with other substances in order to make more profit. So at the moment.. if a person is to buy drugs.. not only are they paying a lot of money.. they are paying a lot of money for something they can't judge the purity of. The chemicals added do not contribute to the safety of the user. the ultimate problem here aside from whatever being added to the drugs, is there is no standard for purity meaning it is incredibly easy to overdose.. Just imagine if you couldn't tell how much alcohol was in the drink you order at the bar? sure some mix drinks you can't tell.. but, if your buy a bottle of wine there is some content information, a beer from the store tells you what your getting. This way you at least have the option of finding out how much alcohol your consuming and consume a steady amount. Imagine if one beer was almost non alcoholic and the next one out the same pack was undrinkable because the alcohol content was too high.

    Legalizing drugs is a necessity for these reasons.
    A. To stop the militant cartels which at the moment are completely unchecked. if we manage to stop one.. Another is going to take its place in a heartbeat. There is too much money to be made by these people to stop.

    B. To Decrease crime rates. With legalized drugs the burden on the prison system will be eased.

    C. To protect people who want to do drugs. At the moment in order to get drugs an addict has to go meet dangerous people in dark allies in order to get a fix putting their own life in danger. If drugs are legalized and regulated this keeps children and underaged people from getting them. This also means they can buy them safely and do them safely in their own house. There are huge decreases in the chance of overdose when standards are put into place.

    E. 13 BILLION a year an go towards fixing REAL problems. Child porn, rape and the overwhelming deficit come to mind. Not only would that be 13 billion a year that could be saved or better used in tax money that would be a HUGE source of revenue for the government when reasonable taxes are applied.

    F. Drugs can be used for research again. Before being made illegal "x" and many other drugs were actually prescribed by doctors. "X" was a drug given to couples to help them work out martial problems. However, at the moment any drug put on a certain classification is deemed to have "no medical use" which in a lot of cases has already been proven wrong.

    G. We are fighting a war on an idea. You can not win a war against an idea. If you can not win, then you will ultimately lose. At the moment children can get drugs easier than alcohol and have just as much temptation to try it why? its illegal!.

    H. We can use the money gained to treat addiction and really help people solve their own problems. I theorize that even without addicts.. there would still be many people who try drugs on purely recreational level which they should have every right to. People who are addicted to drugs could stop being looked down upon and receive help.

    This is not about the legalization and regulation of marijuana. This is about legalization of most drugs across the board. This is an almost exact repeat of what happened in 1920 to 1933.

    The more the government tried to control the illegal alcohol trade the more people died. Innocent people died prohibition against alcohol because the government took steps to prevent production of alcohol.

    Now... let me add a huge disclaimer here.. I DO NOT ENCOURAGE OR RESPECT THE ILLEGAL USE OF DRUGS NOR IS THIS THREAD IN ANY WAY SUPPORTIVE OF BREAKING THE LAW!

    The only point I am attempting to make through out this entire thread is that if we do not have the right to control what substances go into our bodies, what right do we have? We have every legal right to drink a substance which kills 99.9% of bacteria as if nothing were wrong in the world however, pour some marijuana, heroine, cocaine, meth, "x", or even pcp on germs and you won't kill 99.9% of them. I personally think this makes a very, very interesting point on the dangers of things which are already perfectly legal and acceptable. Alcohol is a drug after all.. But, we even make different phrases to seperate it and justify it as though it were not a drug.. "he is an alcoholic" not "he is an addict" "drug and alcohol awareness" it is time we stopped making exceptions for alcohol which is one of the hardest drugs out there.

    It is time we stopped looking down on drugs and addicts. Yes people do use drugs to escape from their problems which does lead to addiction. Yes some people are physically addicted as well as mentally. However, if a person is legally allowed to be an alcohol, caffine, videogame, and nicotine addict why should we frown upon people just because their addiction isn't the same as ours? If a person can get heroine for a reasonable price, it will not ruin their life any more than alcohol, video games or anything else.

    If at this point you have read the whole thing, I want to take a moment to express my gratitude whether you agree or disagree and hope we can have a civil discussion on the issue.
     

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  2. Isthmus

    Isthmus Well-Known Member

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    Boy that was one mighty big meatball. I think I want to go #2. :p

    eedless to say I completely disagree with this. even the most permissive societies when it comes to the use and legalization of drugs for recreational use (the netherlands comes to mind), place severe restrictions on the use and distribution of drugs beyond a certain type. To compare powerfully addictive drugs such as crack cocaine or meth to things such as alcohol abuse is ludicrous. these drugs are far more adictive, work far faster and their effects run deeper and are much stronger than anything except perhaps raw alcohol (which can kill you as easily as an overdose).

    Personally, I believe that drug producers, and especially traffickers should be treated in much the same way as we currently treat terrorists. nations that tolerate them should be held to account, and if they prove too much to handle, we should make it clear that a military option is always available to help clear their problem.
     
  3. aminaked

    aminaked Well-Known Member

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    The hypocrisy that permits alcohol and prescription drug abuse is what makes the war on drugs a farce. It's just a ploy to spend money on law enforcement and throw people in jail. Alcohol and drug companies are anti-drug for selfish reasons. The people who want illegal drugs will always be able to get them regardless of any laws. The cat is out of the bag. I say legalize it, regulate it, tax it.
     
  4. Snow_Fox

    Snow_Fox Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

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    thank you for doing so respectfully
     
  5. Thefoodman52

    Thefoodman52 Well-Known Member

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    I was expecting obesity... but okay.
     
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  6. ElasticNinja

    ElasticNinja Well-Known Member

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    Extremely good point

    But selling cigarettes is legal, and 20% of US&C/EU people smoke, and smuggling is rife [in Ireland]

    I personally think that tobacco is a more potent drug then ecstasy (second hand smoke)
     
  7. Snow_Fox

    Snow_Fox Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

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    Is it illegal to smoke in Ireland?

    I'm curious as to why people smuggle tobacco in Ireland... bizarre custom..
     
  8. aminaked

    aminaked Well-Known Member

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    A doctor told me that smoking cigarettes doesn't increase the cancer risk as much as you'd expect. He said it was very little, although I don't have the numbers to back this up. Emphysema, though, is basically guaranteed.

    I think alcohol is the biggest drug problem. It is legal, addictive, causes impaired driving, depresses yet can cause aggression. Compared to weed: mostly illegal, non-addictive, causes little impaired driving (studies vary), doesn't depress, doesn't cause aggression. That's a big hypocrisy.
     
  9. JAL

    JAL Active Member

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    walls of text imho
     
  10. momoceio

    momoceio Well-Known Member

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    Why would you want to increase your risk for cancer at all? Even if it was by 1%...cancer is already becoming much more common. I don't understand people who smoke, drink excessively, partake in drugs...etc. I don't try to understand them either...but legalizing crack, meth and heroine sure as hell isn't the answer. Just because people rebel and illegally produce should have absolutely no baring on if you legalize it. Rubbish.
     
  11. Snow_Fox

    Snow_Fox Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

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    First, I listed more than one reason they *should* be legalized.

    Next, What is different between Prohibition and the war on drugs?

    Finally why *shouldn't* they be legalized?

    What you deem "rebellion" I deem a guerrilla war between drug dealers and the united states. A war that will go on forever and end up costing far more than it is worth socially due to crimes, economically due to cost/loss profit, and if you are that against ending it I would like to see some real counter arguments as to why.
     
  12. aminaked

    aminaked Well-Known Member

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    Because it's fun. Why live long if your life is boring?
     
  13. Pop Korn

    Pop Korn Member

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    You ever see those people on cops that are high on drugs and damn near unstoppable? I don't think we need a lot of them running around our streets. I don't think that we are that far off from legalizing marijuana across the board and not just for medicinal use. Take a look at California. They are about to vote to make it legal for anyone 21 and older. It may get over turned by a judge after it passes. My point is that crack, heroin and meth are bad for everyone. Marijuana good for you, me and the government. I think our country could save and make a lot of money from it
     
  14. ElasticNinja

    ElasticNinja Well-Known Member

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    Northern Ireland has no/little tax sovereignty and the Brits have a low tobacco tax so its the same in NI :(
    IRA makes a fortune out of smuggling cigs to the republic

    Its illegal to smoke inside buildings here thankfully

    I'm astmathic so hate cigarettes :crying:
     
  15. byteware

    byteware Well-Known Member

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    I was reading that the majority of the drug cartels' money comes from marijuana. It has low growing, processing, and transportation costs (they are currently growing it here in the national parks).

    I think if we legalize and tax marijuana, then we'll make it much more difficult for the drug cartels to do business.

    It's expensive to process cocaine and move it across the border from Columbia. They will still make some money, but not like they are now.
     
  16. AndroidSPCS

    AndroidSPCS Well-Known Member

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    LOL obesity is destroying this country... sadly.
     
  17. Familyguy1

    Familyguy1 Well-Known Member

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    The problem with America is how overly medicated of a country we are, we are told(and believe) that if you take a pill for something, it will help you, when in most cases it will sure for a small amount of time, but not for life(also the cost of prescrip drugs is crazy).

    I read these articles in TIME and wanted to share them:
    The New Drug Crisis: Addiction By Prescription - TIME

    Study: ADHD Checklist Too Easy to Fake - TIME NewsFeed

    Pharmaceutical-Company Settlements: Are Fines Effective? - TIME

    It saddens me in these times that the drug companies are no worse(Some, not all) than the Tobacco companies.

    This is the biggest issue facing our nation today.

    I still do not see the reason why Marijuana is not legal because there are scientific studies done to see how Medical Marijuana affects certain cancers, diseases and so forth. So far all of the ones I have read are in favor of legalization because it can seriously help people with diseases that Prescription Drugs cannot help, or they are only short term, plus have awful even debilitating side-effects that can harm the body more than save it.
     
  18. batgeek

    batgeek Banned

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    correlation does not imply causation
     
  19. kingkerna

    kingkerna Member

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    Clearly you haven't seen any close friends suffer from the prick of a disease that is cancer. You can have 50 years of excitement but if your last year is spent battling, and ultimately losing against cancer then you would think again.

    On the 'issue' that this is about, if you want your already pathetic health system to crumble even further then sure, legalise everything, or maybe go into an emergency ward on a Saturday night/Sunday morning and see the horrendous damage that drugs do to society.

    Posted from Australia 'the lucky country'
     
  20. aminaked

    aminaked Well-Known Member

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    Ah, Australia, basically the biggest nanny state in the world. How's that Internet filter coming? Can you even read this message?

    I know cancer is bad. If we follow your train of thought let's ban:
    -antiperspirant
    -brake pads
    -anything to do with fire (car engines, campfires, cooked food)
    -the list is endless

    Why stop there? Why don't we all walk around with helmets on?

    You might welcome more Australian nanny-ing, but here in the U.S.A. we like our freedom. It was a hard won fight against your king and we don't want to give it up.

    Freedom takes responsibility. People are free to make mistakes, but the benefit is that it allows for happiness and creativity. Down with dictatorship!
     
  21. infil

    infil Well-Known Member

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    Speaking as a former addict, I can say some drugs do have numerous benefits.

    Marijuana is one that I do strongly support legalization of. I do not use it, nor any other substances anymore. My father, a high level quadroplegic, benefitted greatly from its use to calm muscle spasms, and increase his appetite to the point that he was able to actually eat and keep food down. Also for general pain management, and countless other benefits.

    On the same token, substances like PCP, Meth, Cocaine etc are, IMO not productive enough to outweigh the addictive qualities and negative effects.
    PCP is a big one for a post I saw above regarding unstoppable guys on cops, believe me, from first hand experience you dont feel crap on PCP as far as pain, and not much will slow you down. I shattered most of the bones in my right hand on that crap and kept on going in the fight I was involved in, and it took 5 cops to get me down to the point where they could cuff me. I was 14 years old at the time, and weighed all of 100lb soaking wet. Nasty stuff.

    Meth is the same way, just not as potent. Plus i've dumped around $10,000 into my mouth for implants, root canals, bridges etc to repair the damage that wonder drug did.

    I dont have any excuses, I did it to myself. I am eternally grateful to the individuals who essentially forced me to get cleaned up when I woudl have none of it.

    Back to the topic at hand, I think that medical testing and research should absolutely be done into possibly modified forms of some narcotics, which can improve quality of life for a great number of people. Quadroplegia, Paraplegia, Amputees, cancer victims, and other individuals who do suffer from real conditions such as lack of appetite, chronic pain, phantom pain, extreme insomnia etc, can benefit, as im sure numerous others can.

    Bathtub varieties of some of these drugs do absolutely need to be shut down, however targeting street level dealers will never accomplish that, and there is no effective means to get these dangerous, sometimes fatal substances off our streets. Throwing money at the problem obviously hasnt done anything, nor has incarceration. While there is money to be made, someone will be there to make it.
     
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  22. infil

    infil Well-Known Member

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    i'd be up for brake pads......who needs em :p kids on staten island seem to drive by braille anyway :p
     
  23. Sid Bonkers

    Sid Bonkers Well-Known Member

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    I dont know the figures in the US but here in the UK far more people die from alcohol abuse than drug abuse but alcohol is legal.


    Its a mad mad mad mad world :rolleyes:
     
  24. Familyguy1

    Familyguy1 Well-Known Member

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    Yep. Alcohol is the most widely used "drug" that causes fatality, do we give a shit and will we do something about it? It sadly seems we will not.
     
  25. Snow_Fox

    Snow_Fox Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

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    You mean see the horrendous damage that drugs being illegal with no regulations on purity and completely lacking quality control do to society?

    *edit* and no I would not think again.

    I would rather die young and live a high quality life.. than to live crappily forever.

    Speaking as someone who can say he hasn't enjoyed a large portion of their life and works to change it.
     

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