Bad feeling about Verizon's next Droid update

[CRPercodani]

I love you! couldnt find that. I feel better now lol....

On a side note... cannot you not just some kind of packet sniff, or packet changer, and change the header of the packets leaving your computer to be the same as the headers leaving your phone to prevent you from getting caugt? I'm fairly sure this is how they do it

Just use PDAnet, it basically does what you said and completely disguises it as if you were just using data on your DROID and not tethering.

 

[superdesi]

Well after reading everyones post here I guess i was a lil paranoid for nothing. Open source ftw!

On the other hand....what else could this mysterious January update from Verizon be?

 

[allanlaw]

These features cannot be used to tether your device to laptops, personal computers or other devices for any purpose other than syncing of data; any other use is not permitted using these features.

Taken from Feature Detail

Verizon certainly doesn't make it easy to figure this out. It seems to me that if you add the "unlimited usage" feature ($44.99) to your regular voice plan, you can tether to your heart's desire. The exclusion you cite is from the agreement applicable to "email" plans, which I believe refers to the "email and web for smartphone" feature ($29.99) that you add to your regular voice plan and which gives you allegedly unlimited data and email usage. This is what I have. So, it's really a $15/month difference.

 

[colnago]

Thats a scary thought haha. If that happens I will cancel my verizon contract pay the 350 early termination fee, sell my droid and buy a MyTouch 3G or something on T-Mobile.

Or just buy a Milestone and you're back to a DROID anyway...except the data plan will only be $10/mo. on T-Mo.

 

[Deeter]

Verizon certainly doesn't make it easy to figure this out. It seems to me that if you add the "unlimited usage" feature ($44.99) to your regular voice plan, you can tether to your heart's desire. The exclusion you cite is from the agreement applicable to "email" plans, which I believe refers to the "email and web for smartphone" feature ($29.99) that you add to your regular voice plan and which gives you allegedly unlimited data and email usage. This is what I have. So, it's really a $15/month difference.

This is slightly incorrect. I will break the plans down as there seems to be some confusion with the plan prices and tethering....
The $44.99 data package for PDA/Blackberry is only slightly different from the $29.99 plan. On a Windows mobile device the more expensive package allows you access to the Wireless Sync program, and for the Blackberry it allows you access to the BES. The Wireless sync and BES options are controlled in the Verizon switch. So if you have the cheaper plans, you will not be able to access Wireless Sync or the BES. For the $44.99 you do not have any tethering access, it is available for $15.00 additional. That makes your total access $59.99 if you have the data plan and plan on tethering....... For the $29.99 email and web plan, you get what it states...email and web on your smartphone. On the Blackberry you get your BIS emails and on the Windows phones/Droid you get your normal access as well. The tethering option is $30 on top of the plan, which gets you right back to $59.99. The catch to the cheaper plan is if your on an exchange server you are "supposed" be on the more expensive plan....but there is nothing in the system on Verizons end to block this. The tethering is an a la carte feature.

 

[allanlaw]

This is slightly incorrect. I will break the plans down as there seems to be some confusion with the plan prices and tethering....
The $44.99 data package for PDA/Blackberry is only slightly different from the $29.99 plan. On a Windows mobile device the more expensive package allows you access to the Wireless Sync program, and for the Blackberry it allows you access to the BES. The Wireless sync and BES options are controlled in the Verizon switch. So if you have the cheaper plans, you will not be able to access Wireless Sync or the BES. For the $44.99 you do not have any tethering access, it is available for $15.00 additional. That makes your total access $59.99 if you have the data plan and plan on tethering....... For the $29.99 email and web plan, you get what it states...email and web on your smartphone. On the Blackberry you get your BIS emails and on the Windows phones/Droid you get your normal access as well. The tethering option is $30 on top of the plan, which gets you right back to $59.99. The catch to the cheaper plan is if your on an exchange server you are "supposed" be on the more expensive plan....but there is nothing in the system on Verizons end to block this. The tethering is an a la carte feature.

Maybe, but the restriction on tethering would not be in your agreement if you have the $44.99 plan, so that running third-party tethering software would be fine. It may be that you wouldn't have access to Verizon's tethering software (VZAccess Manager). That was what I was trying to say. You'd think they could spit the rules out on their website so that mere mortals (or even lawyers with 40 years experience) could understand it.

 

[Deeter]

You'd think they could spit the rules out on their website so that mere mortals (or even lawyers with 40 years experience) could understand it.

Nah, that would be too easy...

Although I am sure that a description written for a small child would still confuse some people.....your a lawyer, you know EXACTLY what I am talking about

I know that a lot of people use PDAnet, and to be honest unless the usage was alarming, they would not really bother to monitor. I have been in tech support for quite some time....and in my years I have never seen a customer shut off over usage unless they had the tether option and were going over the 5GB cap consistantly. Both plans do have the fine print of not tethering unless for PIM transfer, but I have yet to come across an account that was shut off or had a customer complain about it that used PDAnet or a like feature.

But on a lighter note......the update coming out soon just fixes bugs and more exchange support.....I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt that a program like PDAnet would be stopped after a SW update.....

 

[superdesi]

But on a lighter note......the update coming out soon just fixes bugs and more exchange support.....I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt that a program like PDAnet would be stopped after a SW update.....

THAT is AWESOME news! Thank you sir for clearing up misconceptions (mostly the ones I started ).

 

[Deeter]

THAT is AWESOME news! Thank you sir for clearing up misconceptions (mostly the ones I started ).

No worries, I think its only natural for people to be hesitant about a Verizon phone and software updates, but this is the first phone Verizon has not had their hands all over. Its a great phone and just the start of whats to come on Big Red here shortly...

 

[CRPercodani]

Verizon certainly doesn't make it easy to figure this out. It seems to me that if you add the "unlimited usage" feature ($44.99) to your regular voice plan, you can tether to your heart's desire. The exclusion you cite is from the agreement applicable to "email" plans, which I believe refers to the "email and web for smartphone" feature ($29.99) that you add to your regular voice plan and which gives you allegedly unlimited data and email usage. This is what I have. So, it's really a $15/month difference.

Maybe, but the restriction on tethering would not be in your agreement if you have the $44.99 plan, so that running third-party tethering software would be fine. It may be that you wouldn't have access to Verizon's tethering software (VZAccess Manager). That was what I was trying to say. You'd think they could spit the rules out on their website so that mere mortals (or even lawyers with 40 years experience) could understand it.

Unlimited Smartphone and BlackBerry Plans and Features
These WirelessEmail plans and features cannot be used: (1) for access to the Internet, intranets or other data networks except as the device

 

[allanlaw]

A little tricky to find, but not that hard...Terms & Conditions scroll down past all the bold text and you'll see it.

For a retail consumer product, there's a lot of drilling down to do before you get there. It would make an interesting class action if push came to shove . . . but I really don't disagree with the ultimate conclusion, tethering is not permitted on the "WirelessEmail" plans.

 

[CRPercodani]

It's not permitted on the unlimited data plan either (the $45 one). The piece I quoted above is from the T&C for Unlimited Smartphone/Blackberry plans. Basically you have to get the extra $30 tethering add on when they make it available, or just use PDAnet or WiFi Tether when it becomes compatible with the DROID.

 

[sooper_droid12]

If VZW blocks tethering on an open platform, expect a mass exodus of customers, especially those who were waiting for VZW to have Android.

 

[littledroid]

Where can I find the $30 and $45 plans mentioned in this thread? I only see the following PDA/smartphone plans on Cell Phones,Smartphones,Mobile Cell Phone Plans - Verizon Wireless.

PDA/Smartphone Nationwide Email
Monthly access starting at $79.99

PDA/Smartphone Nationwide Email & Messaging
Monthly access starting at $99.99

 

[Deeter]

They are add on features for the stand alone plans. The bundled plans you see are offered on the website, but I am not sure if the website allows you to break it down. I know you can if you call in and talk to someone, maybe the website just cant handle it. $39.99 + $29.99 is cheaper than $79.99 ( if my public school math is correct...) so its pointless to pay $10 more... now if you have a blackberry and are connected to the BES then the 79.99 is a savings of $5.

 

[bnuge942]

the last guy is right. The smart phone data packages are add ons, that are automaticly added when you add a smart phone to your plan. they run $29.99 for basic or $44.99 if you need an intranet BES access. thethering is $30 extra for the $29.99 and $15 for the $44.99, making both $59.99. BUT teathering isnt ulimited anymore, you only get 5 gigs through VZW. they dropped the unlimited a few months ago. Goes the same for the air card and MIFI units too.

 

[Mapex]

When I look on the My Verizon app, there are two options. One for $29.99 and one for $44.99. The latter being internet tethering.

Don't mind me if this has already been stated (my phone's battery is about to die so I couldn't search for this in formation), but tethering will cost you $60 total regardless. Either you pay $30/month for data + $30/month for tethering as an end user, or you pay $45/month + $15/month as a corporate user. Also, I believe the tethering counts as a second data plan, meaning that the 5GB cap becomes 10GB, but don't quote me on that.

Also Verizon risks their partnership with Google if they violate the "Google Experience," as in if they attempt to lockdown or force apps onto this phone. Google "Google Experience" if you need confirmation about such phones being immune to crippling.

 

[superdesi]

I was unaware of this whole Google Experience initiative but now that you guys have explained it in detail, it helps me sleep a little more easier at night

 

[John Frykman]

There will be ways around it. AT&T still does not allow tethering the iPhone 3GS, but mine was jailbroken and I was tethering the whole time I had the phone. Any phone company wants to find ways to justify nickel and diming their customers but if you really want to tether without paying for it, there will always be ways to do it if you are willing to do a little work for it.

Charging for excessive data is not nickel diming. It costs many millions to build the infrastructure to allow internet access on a network. If everyone started tethering, it would choke the system and everyone's smart phones would slow to a crawl. Tethering is cheating, and Verizon has every right--even a duty to their other customers--to make people who want to tether pay a reasonable price for it. By the way, it is VERY easy for them to find out who is doing this. There is a 5 GB limit on the "unlimited" data plans. It gets very spendy if you go over that limit. Your assertion that there will always be ways to get past those limits is questionable. You may be able to tether. Getting away with it is entirely different.

 

[ICANSEEYOU7687]

Charging for excessive data is not nickel diming. It costs many millions to build the infrastructure to allow internet access on a network. If everyone started tethering, it would choke the system and everyone's smart phones would slow to a crawl. Tethering is cheating, and Verizon has every right--even a duty to their other customers--to make people who want to tether pay a reasonable price for it. By the way, it is VERY easy for them to find out who is doing this. There is a 5 GB limit on the "unlimited" data plans. It gets very spendy if you go over that limit. Your assertion that there will always be ways to get past those limits is questionable. You may be able to tether. Getting away with it is entirely different.

I disagree... tethering does not require any more bandwidth then using your phone. Your under the asumption that because people can tether they are giong to be using it all the time. Where from myself, talking to others, and what i've read online, most user would only use this sparingly when they needed it.

Having it there in case its needed is much more reassuring to people then not being able to do it. There is a 5gb cap, and this is put in for protection on their servers. But even if you tether, and stay below THEIR limit I do not see the harm. If I pay for 5gb of bandwidth I want to be able to use it.

And for the most part, even if I tether, 95% of my data usage will still come from my phone. Im not going to plug it in to my laptop to check my email, or my daily failblog.org checking... thats silly.... But if im away at from work, and cannot get internet access, and someone from work just posted a must read file, or something, sure I might use the phone to download it to my PC to check it out... But nothing thats going to "Harm" their servers in any way

 

[John Frykman]

What other reason would you have to tether if it weren't to use it for a significant amount of data usage? What's the point? Your "legitimate" scenario seems pretty unlikely. I do customer support for POS systems over the internet on a DSL connection and have NEVER been unable to provide that support in 9 years because of a failed connection. Could happen, but the building might burn down, too.

By the way, I never suggested a concern for Verizon's servers. I hope they are more secure than that! That isn't the reason for the prohibition on tethering. If you are in such a mission critical position then your company shouldn't mind popping for the charges to legitimately pay for tethering or anything else you need to do for your job.

It's easy to meter voice usage, and you are required to pay for the minutes you use at a premium if you go over the allowed usage. Data service is no different, except you are not charged for minutes...you are charged for data. The two services may use the same bandwidth, but they are used in very different ways. You can be online for hours and use very little data if you are merely reading a very long document. But if you are downloading huge files to your PC, you could easily surpass the very liberal 5 GB limit in a few days. If you are talking on your cellphone, being on hold takes the same amount of resources as yakking a mile a minute.

Do you feel that you should be able, on your own, to determine legitimate use of your Verizon service? Verizon has explicitly banned tethering unless you PAY to do so, as do virtually all other carriers to my knowledge. If you don't like the TOS (which you agreed to) then go to a service whose TOS are more to your liking. Or maybe get together with a bunch of other folks who want to tether for free and build your own network. Then you would find out, I'm sure, that it costs money to build, operate, and maintain a service such as Verizon's and have enough left over to go to the bottom line.

When you have your own network, then you can make the rules. Until then, you are stuck with the rules of the network whose services you use.

Sure, you can ignore them and as long as you stay under the 5 GB limit, they may not catch you. But if they do, they can unilaterally terminate your service and charge you for the rest of your subscription obligation. It's in the fine print.

 

[superdesi]

Sure, you can ignore them and as long as you stay under the 5 GB limit, they may not catch you. But if they do, they can unilaterally terminate your service and charge you for the rest of your subscription obligation. It's in the fine print.

Cant argue with that!

 

[ICANSEEYOU7687]

What other reason would you have to tether if it weren't to use it for a significant amount of data usage? What's the point? Your "legitimate" scenario seems pretty unlikely. I do customer support for POS systems over the internet on a DSL connection and have NEVER been unable to provide that support in 9 years because of a failed connection. Could happen, but the building might burn down, too.

By the way, I never suggested a concern for Verizon's servers. I hope they are more secure than that! That isn't the reason for the prohibition on tethering. If you are in such a mission critical position then your company shouldn't mind popping for the charges to legitimately pay for tethering or anything else you need to do for your job.

It's easy to meter voice usage, and you are required to pay for the minutes you use at a premium if you go over the allowed usage. Data service is no different, except you are not charged for minutes...you are charged for data. The two services may use the same bandwidth, but they are used in very different ways. You can be online for hours and use very little data if you are merely reading a very long document. But if you are downloading huge files to your PC, you could easily surpass the very liberal 5 GB limit in a few days. If you are talking on your cellphone, being on hold takes the same amount of resources as yakking a mile a minute.

Do you feel that you should be able, on your own, to determine legitimate use of your Verizon service? Verizon has explicitly banned tethering unless you PAY to do so, as do virtually all other carriers to my knowledge. If you don't like the TOS (which you agreed to) then go to a service whose TOS are more to your liking. Or maybe get together with a bunch of other folks who want to tether for free and build your own network. Then you would find out, I'm sure, that it costs money to build, operate, and maintain a service such as Verizon's and have enough left over to go to the bottom line.

When you have your own network, then you can make the rules. Until then, you are stuck with the rules of the network whose services you use.

Sure, you can ignore them and as long as you stay under the 5 GB limit, they may not catch you. But if they do, they can unilaterally terminate your service and charge you for the rest of your subscription obligation. It's in the fine print.

I still disagree with you on most of your points. First of all the majority of the users who have cell phones and dataplans prob could not even set up or need to tehter.

Second your assume that people who have the ability to tether are going to use it non stop. Unfotunately most houses, workplaces, hotels, motels, even resturantes offer free wifi access. This is not new, and the majority of the time I have perfectly acceptable wifi connections.

In addition, you are assuming that people who tether are going to go over the 5gb limit, which I dont think they will, but if they do verizon is basically going to charge them an arm and a leg for it, or throw on a tethering package without informing the customer. If this happens then by all means

And just cause you agree to some ToS doesnt mean you cant get around them. Since PDAnet changes the header files of the packets, you cant get caught from verizon. And from what i've read online about the droid and PDAnet very very few people have gotten caught.... which means... the majority of those people arent affecting verizon at all

 

[John Frykman]

I still disagree with you on most of your points. First of all the majority of the users who have cell phones and dataplans prob could not even set up or need to tehter.

Second your assume that people who have the ability to tether are going to use it non stop. Unfotunately most houses, workplaces, hotels, motels, even resturantes offer free wifi access. This is not new, and the majority of the time I have perfectly acceptable wifi connections.

In addition, you are assuming that people who tether are going to go over the 5gb limit, which I dont think they will, but if they do verizon is basically going to charge them an arm and a leg for it, or throw on a tethering package without informing the customer. If this happens then by all means

And just cause you agree to some ToS doesnt mean you cant get around them. Since PDAnet changes the header files of the packets, you cant get caught from verizon. And from what i've read online about the droid and PDAnet very very few people have gotten caught.... which means... the majority of those people arent affecting verizon at all

I don't think you understood my post at all. The points you discuss in your post were not the points I addressed.

The last point YOU made is that because you might be able to violate your promise and maybe not get caught, presumably, that is just fine with you. Is that what you think of contracts in general? That they don't mean anything if you don't get caught violating them?

Using that logic, your insurance company should be able to walk away from reimbursing you if your house burns down because they might be able to get away with it.

In short, you believe that if a law or rule doesn't suit you, you are on perfectly high moral grounds to ignore parts of the rule, or the entirety of the rule, even though you agreed to it. Isn't that what sociopaths (google it) do?

That seems to be the whole point of your post. Or did I miss something?

 

[CRPercodani]

If your going to tether then you have to accept the fact your breaking the ToS and could be subject to fees, fines, and punishment. We don't really need to go into morals here, but a good debate is welcomed. If you rarely tether then you shouldn't have any worries but if in the rare case you absolutely must do it then please don't abuse the network, do what needs to be done and then disable the connection. If you need tethering all the time then either add on the tethering feature, buy a MiFi, or get a USB data stick/card.

People can do plenty of damage to the network with the smartphones available today, so arguing that is pointless.