Church Burning Holy Korans

[aiz4andy]

You've apparently missed my posts about the murderous "Crusades," and other religion based atrocities; I'm not attempting to lift organized religion above atheism in terms of governing morals.

What I'm doing is showing that atheism is used in the same manner as religion to vilify "the enemy" and declare him not worthy of existing in groups in that regime.

But you cannot support the case that atheism was the sole driving force in regards to any atrocities you may be talking about. For example, the way you link it to Communism is ridiculous. Just because communism may have certain atheistic essences - this does not make all atheists communist - or vice versa for that matter.

In short, the driving force was not atheism. I cannot say the same about religion.

 

[Frisco]

As stated by the regime itself, and its founder, Karl Marx, "religion is the opiate of the masses."

Throughout Marx and Lenin's writings are references to the "necessity of atheism to further the socialist progress of all working people."

You're mistaken about atheism not being the reason for those regime's atrocities; it is the reason as adopted by the leaders of said regimes in an exact similar fashion as gods have been adopted by regimes world wide as the reasoning for their particular agendas.

It doesn't matter what the banner is, it'll be carried into battle to foreign countries and it will also be hoisted high over the oppressed at home, be it the "forward thinking atheist" or the "warriors for Allah" or the "Crusaders for Christ."

 

[Frisco]

Incidentally, it's interesting how, no matter the belief system of the participant in a discussion such as this one, some will become quite hot-headed and there will at some point be no differences at all in the aggressions being thrust upon each of them by their opponents.

Some atheists, at some point, want to silence theists with as much venom as they can muster as theists want to shut them up.. ad infinitum.

A reminder: the majority on both sides of these discussions are peace minded, respectful folks; it is the loudest ones that most often get all the public attention and distort the image of the average person on either side.

 

[aiz4andy]

I've already answered this in my previous post.

Atheism is not dependant on communism. Communism is not dependant on atheism.

In this case, although I will agree that atheism was a factor, the main driving force was communism. This does not mean that whenever an atheist government is elected (I'm humouring you here), they will be communist by default.

 

[Frisco]

I've already answered this in my previous post.

Atheism is not dependant on communism. Communism is not dependant on atheism.

In this case, although I will agree that atheism was a factor, the main driving force was communism. This does not mean that whenever an atheist government is elected (I'm humouring you here), they will be communist by default.

Well, it appears we're in agreement.. something got snagged a bit ago and I'm not sure what it was.. I'll try to be more concise:

I think I speak for the majority on both sides of the atheism vs theism debate when I say that the other side is no less legitimate as citizens, teachers, leaders, etc in society.

For some reason, many societies elect or allow to be elevated to leadership roles people who use their beliefs to subjugate either (or both) the home populace or neighboring states with different belief systems.

The belief system of the totalitarian thinking leader(s) is not relevant: they'll use it to do their evil deeds, it's all throughout history.

 

[aiz4andy]

I can agree with all of that, I don't think what a person/governing body believes is necessarily a problem. But how they act in relation to those views can be.

I think the statement that threw me was when you said:

"Once atheists get into government, all hell breaks loose and to an extent on a par with extremist religious regimes."

This sentence just seemed like you were suggesting that an atheist political party, or a party who did not necessarily accept any form of religion (again, I prefer to use the term "secular") could not govern as they would always wage war on religion, when this is clearly not the case.

 

[highdefinition]

I think that is ridiculous. What does burning a Quran do for anyone? Most Christians aren't like this but there are a few that think they are doing "what God told them" when really they put blinders on their eyes and try to rid the world of everything they don't think is right, or conflicts with their beliefs. The most important thing is to love, its something that should be placed above all other things in a Christians life, and is preached all over the Bible. Now this obviously is an act of hatred and I am a Christian and don't agree with the Quran but this is extremely offensive to me. And on top of that this gives all Christian's a bad name when a majority aren't even like that.

Look at the Westboro Baptist Church (The one that has been all over the news), they protest homosexuality and Military funerals. Where is the love? And where in the Bible does it say spread hate? No where! I love how they burn the Quran cause its something they think is wrong, yet no where in the Bible does it condone this behavior, in fact if anything I think it would condemn it. Thats just my personal opinion

 

[aiz4andy]

Actually, it does condone this behaviour. In fact, this is tame compared to the Bible.

 

[mrqs]

As stated by the regime itself, and its founder, Karl Marx, "religion is the opiate of the masses."

and as stated by gregory house (m.d.), "religion is the placebo of the masses"
i find that statement much more accurate

 

[amd7000]

Well, you can stick all the religious books in that bonfire. There all a waste of trees.

 

[imtoomuch]

Well, you can stick all the religious books in that bonfire. There all a waste of trees.

Exactly! They're just fiction novels.

They may have started out based on history events, but after religious nuts got ahold of the books and changed them to fit their beliefs and their religions who knows how much truth is left in them.

 

[Weazol]

Well, you can stick all the religious books in that bonfire. There all a waste of trees.

throw all books in the fire, movies are better

 

[Frisco]

throw all books in the fire, movies are better

I like that. All adherents to Catholicism, Islam and Judaism must, from now on, see King of Kings, Mohammad Messenger of God and The Ten Commandments, then they get to decide which faith to reach their adopted God with.

 

[Weazol]

I like that. All adherents to Catholicism, Islam and Judaism must, from now on, see King of Kings, Mohammad Messenger of God and The Ten Commandments, then they get to decide which faith to reach their adopted God with.

Don't forget the Mel Gibson movie.

 

[macprv]

humans need to put their faith in something non physical, with no name, no face and no color... that would solve lots of problem in earth

 

[Weazol]

humans need to put their faith in something non physical, with no name, no face and no color... that would solve lots of problem in earth

... He does have a name

 

[gallandof]

humans need to put their faith in something non physical, with no name, no face and no color... that would solve lots of problem in earth

that is essentially what religion is(or was meant to be), and for some, works. but for others this causes more problems. I know personally I have an extremely hard time understanding religion and when people try to explain (preach) it to me it just doesnt make sense. I need physical evidence, scientific proof, something so I can go "see look here feel this, thats why it happened"

back on topic, the burning of any religious/sacred text is unacceptable on so many levels. sure you may not agree with it but that doesnt allow you to take a figurative crap on someone elses beliefs.

it doesnt help that religious/spiritual services now a days have become perverted into cash cows, and have lost touch with their origins. The best church event ive ever gone to was one of my brazilian friends churches, they met in a public field, no chairs nothing and sat around in a circle discussing spirituality and how God is there to help them and guide them through there life. This to me is how religion should be handled, no money income no one person if more prominent than the others, all are equal and have just as much to contribute as the next person.

 

[JQwerty91]

Good riddance. That book is nothing but loads of crap. Them justifying their existence by building a mosque near the world trade center where my loved one died? A muslim who I just heard today 8/9/2010 who poisoned and killed my dad's business partner in Malaysia so she can acquire all the wealth? I'm sorry mods for being really aggressive but I just hate what they believe in, what they stand for. praising an allah before they blow themselves up? that that killing a westerner would automatically lead them to heaven? And the thing that aggravates me the most is having to hear the pathetic chants they give off everyday when I wake up since their mosque is only a few blocks down from where I live. And I know someone here will try to justify their means saying that I'm wrong and what you say is immoral. Just try to live in our generation, our reality and even in my shoes for once.

 

[Frisco]

Good riddance. That book is nothing but loads of crap. Them justifying their existence by building a mosque near the world trade center where my loved one died? A muslim who I just heard today 8/9/2010 who poisoned and killed my dad's business partner in Malaysia so she can acquire all the wealth? I'm sorry mods for being really aggressive but I just hate what they believe in, what they stand for. praising an allah before they blow themselves up? that that killing a westerner would automatically lead them to heaven? And the thing that aggravates me the most is having to hear the pathetic chants they give off everyday when I wake up since their mosque is only a few blocks down from where I live. And I know someone here will try to justify their means saying that I'm wrong and what you say is immoral. Just try to live in our generation, our reality and even in my shoes for once.

Naive, even disgusting remarks. Those beliefs you cite are not those of Islam, but of terrorists who are very often enemies of their host countries of origin.

Those of us who lost loved ones in the 9/11 attacks lost them to criminals, not to Islam.

Suicidal terrorists do hold those beliefs, but Moslems world wide do not any more than Christians world wide feel that murdering abortion doctors should be church policy.

Disparaging their holy book, condoning that, is to perpetuate ignorance, which your post there is laced with.

 

[Fonseca]

As a Christian, I am appalled at this.

 

[Frisco]

As a Christian, I am appalled at this.

That's because you're a real Christian, in my opinion.

I have deep doubts that Christ Jesus would have condoned such action.

It's one thing to express anger because of the acts which hurt us, but quite another to buy into the wholesale demonizing of the faith which a faction of the perpetrators claim to be doing their despicable things in the name of. That is so ignorant that I am always startled when I see it expressed.

 

[Steven58]

Personally, I think that we should take the high ground here and show respect for devout Muslims. I find it strange that a pastor would take such an aggressive (violent-ish) stance. Jesus said to "Love your enemies" not mock them.

One thing the pastor said on TV was that Islam was a violent religion. He said that they're response to this (death threats and threats of retaliation against US soldiers) proves his point. I can see his point there, although provocation is a strange way to prove it.

However, after listening to him (he sounds like a sane and rational man, from what I saw), I thoroughly disagree with what he is doing. Even if you disagree with another religion, I don't see it as a ticket to offend, blaspheme and mock them, especially if the people in question are so passionate about their faith.

The violence and provocation has to stop somewhere and someone or some group has got to take the higher road. Ghandi said something like, if everyone subscribed to "an eye for an eye" the entire world would be blind.

Thumbs down to the pastor of Dove World Outreach Center. I thought the Dove was a symbol of peace? That's at least one of the meanings.

 

[AnotherHiggins]

There were muslim victims of the terrorist attacks on September 11th. There were also muslim emergency responders.

'9/11 Happened to Us All'

So I guess what the pastor means is that he wants to remember some of the victims?

Al-Qaeda and other Islamic terrorists make up a tiny fraction of all muslims - Just like Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols (the Oklahoma City bombing), Eric Rudolph (several bombings in the late 90s) and other Christian terrorists make up a tiny fraction of all Christians.

 

[EmoTonyB]

i think anything violent or otherwise for the sake of religion is rediculous. that being said.. i do not make a point out of bashing others thoughts or beliefs so long as they leave me out of it. why burn a koran. doing that is just another symbol of hate. why not burn mohammed in effigy. same principal right? burn a french flag cause you dont like the french or a chilean flag if you dont like them. hell burn half of africa if yo u dont like africans. its all the same.

all it is is a way to cause attention to and cause a rift between peoples differences. it has been going on for millenia and will continue as long as humanity does

 

[tsp_2177]

While not fully agreeing with the pastor, I do see his point. Jesus said "Love your enemies" but Jesus also stood what he believed in, and never once did he cave to anyone, including the devil whether it "hurt their feelings/respected them" or not. Jesus told the Devil he was evil, he didn't say " I respect your believes and opinion and lets just agree to disagree." I see it kind of odd to burn their Koran but I'm glad that he's trying to take a stand against something.