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  1. Crude

    Crude Well-Known Member

    As of this morning the national association of realtors reports the lowest sale rate in 15 years. Unemployment is at 9.5% nation wide. Taxes are up, wages ( compensated for inflation) are down.

    The stimulus packages failed to fix the housing bubble and unemployment. Guess the economists were right?

  2. Isthmus

    Isthmus Well-Known Member

    Well, the stimulus packages might not have helped to the extent that most hoped they would (not much of a surprise there), but at the same time one has to wonder how much worse the effect would have been had the government done nothing and allowed the ensure banking system to collapse, as well as several major industries. Sure everyone likes to blame the decissions made, but you rarely hear much by way of thought out replies regarding the alternatives.

    On the plus side, those with income in these bad times, are in a unique opportunity to find some serious bargains. home buyers are seeing a major buyers market with relatively depressed prices and cheap financing, while commercial buyers have a tone of available opportunities, just not much of a market to make a go of all the available businesses for sale out there.
  3. mcapozzi

    mcapozzi Well-Known Member

    Imagine how much better the stimulus could have been if we didn't waste a trillion dollars on a useless war in Iraq.

    As the old saying goes, a trillion dollars saved is a trillion dollars earned...

  4. Isthmus

    Isthmus Well-Known Member

    If at least we would ave admitted that the war was for oil and secured preferential rights to exploit it and discounted prices to buy it, but we didn't even do that.
  5. hakr100

    hakr100 Well-Known Member

    I don't recall anyone saying it was going to be easy recovering from the Great Bush Recession.
  6. mcapozzi

    mcapozzi Well-Known Member

    Exactly, what did a trillion dollars buy us. Nothing.

  7. hakr100

    hakr100 Well-Known Member

    What do you mean? It enriched defense contractors.
  8. copestag

    copestag Well-Known Member

    even 'he' knows not to post HUGE pictures in a forum
  9. novice_x

    novice_x Active Member

    The Bush recession, please. Bush atleast knew small business is what drives employment in this country. Obama is the only man naive enough to think he can tax this country out of debt, and not choke the economy while doing it
  10. Crude

    Crude Well-Known Member

    Taxes have ALWAYS hurt economies and tax cuts have always helped.....that is a fact. The great thing about this is that me and %40 of America knew this the day Obama was elected yet he was still voted in. At that point I knew America has a huge issue...and it wasn't Obama.
  11. WAdude

    WAdude Well-Known Member

    Sometimes I wonder, are we just numbers to the government, like, do we owe them or do they owe us. Cause I thought they served the people, I guess thats just to make us feel better now.

    And its sad that soldiers are expendable to the damn government these days. They need to start serving the people, not their own benefits. The war In Iraq was total BS.
  12. Crude

    Crude Well-Known Member

    oh, yeah. I almost forgot he promised to bring us out of the war in Iraq and look! Here we are knee deep in Afghanistan. Guess what America and France have in common? We both tried to conquer a state that others failed at taking. Lets hope we have a different outcome then Napoleon had.
  13. Hangdog42

    Hangdog42 Well-Known Member

  14. Isthmus

    Isthmus Well-Known Member

    I have a question on the tax debate. I'm as much for lower taxes as the next guy, but at what point does a tax break make sense? Are we talking about a true tax break, like eliminating income taxes, estate taxes and/or property taxes? or are we talking about a one or two percentage drop worth a few hundred bucks, that doesn't really impact anyone individual in any true fashion? Are we talking about programs designed to encourage specific types of behavior (such as tax breaks designed to encourage home ownership, or local enterpeneurship)?

    My point is that we can't have our collective cake and eat it too. government has to exist and has to provide certain services. Regardless of your views on what government should or should not do, I'm pretty sure most would agree that the government does a decent job of maintaining roads and infrastructure through out the country. yes, I know they could be doing a lot better and that a long list of projects are in dire need of maintenance. still, by comparison to most of the world, we are doing a pretty damn good job. To do all this the government needs the money so taxes of some sort are unavoidable.

    I think the real issue that most folks have is not taxes per se, but rather the degree of taxation and what that money should be used for. Personally I think that there are times that it is in the best interest of a country for its governments to become actively involved in promoting certain types of industries and behaviors at the expense of others. there are other times in which government is better off staying out or playing referee.

    Personally I think that the tax cuts that we experienced during the bush years, didn't really benefit anyone. they were financed largely through borrowed money that we are now having to pay back. yes we had a great time going on an 8 year spending binge, but it was not financially sustainable. While I might not agree with the current administration's policies, one thing is true, they were handed a plate full of crap and left to fix it or get the blame. As much as we all like tax breaks, The real issue here has been first, trying to keep the economy and entire industries from collapsing, and second stabilizing the economy before we can consider reducing government's involvement in certain obvious areas. I'm a big champion of a market economy, but every now and then it needs to be tempered and redirected, and IMHO this is just one of those times.

    As a disclaimer, I work in finance and I experienced a jump to a higher tax bracket under the new tax regulations. I don't like it, but I like the alternatives even less.
  15. Crude

    Crude Well-Known Member

    Nah, it's going to get worse. Our tax to loan ration is about to go up side down. Throwing money at the problem is a bandaid and once the effect is gone AND the money is gone it will start again. It's a viscous cycle and we are in it. Look at the housing market as a microcosm of what's going on. It failed so we lowered rates and it picked up briefly. Then it started to tank again and so we started the giving people money to buy a house. Take the money away and it's tanked again. The logical next step it to through more money at it.

    Reaganomics worked....why not do it again?
  16. Hangdog42

    Hangdog42 Well-Known Member

    It did? We got budget busting deficits from Reaganomics.
  17. copestag

    copestag Well-Known Member

    was gonna avoid this discussion as these always go the same route.......... blame bush blame bush blame bush...... despite us being 18 months into a new presidency which has alread made bush's spending look like a kids allowance.........

    but I did have to point out my ire whenever I see someone referring to a tax cut as borrowed money.......... cutting taxes on can not be borrowed money....I get so sick of people trying to say that......... even the notable Alan Greenspan who is supposed to be such a master of economics cant seem to wrap his mind around this simple fact.......

    taxes have nothing to do with borrowing money........ spending is the reason we borrow money........ if you dont want to borrow money you cut spending not raise taxes

    people like to associate lower taxes with borrowing simply because its usually the end result....... inevitably when we lower taxes its going to lead to borrowing with the idiots in our govt...... but this isnt because the taxes are lower its because they waste so much money on senseless crap

    it seems nobody actually learned any lesson at all from the housing collapse....... one of the major factors involved was people buying too much house.......... you dont buy a $800K house if you make $10/hr......... this goes the same for govt......... you dont waste money on foreign studies to find out why drunk hookers contract more diseases than sober ones, etc etc.........

    the govt can lower taxes all they want and not worry about borrowing if they stopped treating our money like a kid in a candy store
  18. hakr100

    hakr100 Well-Known Member

    The bush economic policies got us into the mess we are in...seems reasonably to blame him as we try to fight to a comeback.
  19. clutchy

    clutchy Well-Known Member

    bush had very little to do with this current nonsense... it started a long time ago and has alot more to do with the FED and other unscrupulous organizations...
  20. cjr72

    cjr72 Well-Known Member

    The roots of this mess has to do with misguided affordable housing policies that far predates the Bush years. Blaming Bush is the smokescreen to cover that up.
  21. clutchy

    clutchy Well-Known Member

    partially... the vast majority are in the mid upper ranges... people that are smart enough to realize the moral hazard and say screw it.

    it has do to most with the cheap credit available and low to no down payments.
  22. jamor

    jamor Well-Known Member

  23. Crude

    Crude Well-Known Member

    But we recovered right? Here we are with record increases to the deficit and NO recovery...I rest my case.
  24. Crude

    Crude Well-Known Member

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