Gay Rights


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  1. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra= VIP Member This Topic's Starter

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    In a thread about a parade, Iowa responded to a post by me:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frisco [​IMG]
    I'm in agreement with you as long as what you mean by "..in the work place.." is the job duties and working relationships with colleagues and co-workers.

    But if by "..in the work place.." you mean you're willing to give up your wife's right to medical and other benefits (retirement, etc) because of your sexual orientation, then we part company because that is what gay couples have faced for decades in the U.S.

    ..until they began to challenge their "work place" by demanding the same rights as we have.

    It's not about fraternizing, it's about equal rights, folks. This is not rocket science.


    Iowa responded:

    "Here's a big stab into your POV though. Marriage, is a religious thing, with religious origins. Why the state adopted it into legal matters is beyond me, but it still doesn't change it's a religious thing. And with Christianity, homosexuality is forbidden, hence the conflict with gay marriage. Until religion is completely wiped from the face of the earth, which I doubt will ever happen, there will always be prejudice against Gays."

    And my response:

    The marriage license is a legal right, not a religious one. Some people have the ceremony in a church, many do not.

    Also, if Christianity were the only religion with gay members, then you might have a discussion here about whether or not the Holy Bible condones homosexual unions.

    But, of course, there are gays everywhere on Earth, in every culture and religion.
     

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  2. Vihzel

    Vihzel Destroying Balls Everyday VIP Member

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    As I said in the other thread, I believe that the "marriage certificate" should be changed to a "civil union certificate" or whatever and have "marriage" be left as a "religious" ceremony. That way... EVERYONE will have the right to have a "civil union" and everyone will have the chance to be "married" by a pastor or whoever.

    That way... EVERYONE is happy. :) Problem solved!
     
  3. G.Armour

    G.Armour You know you want to. VIP Member

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    Ah, but that's just it.. not everyone will be happy with that... What about the church going people? Do you think they are just gonna sit around and watch what they consider a holy bond between man and woman tied together under God's eyes be, in which they would consider, mocked and changed so that 2 ppl could be joined together. Na, matter of fact, I honestly can't say I agree with it either.. And the reason why I don't is because just what Iowa said in the other thread, it was created by religion, why should they back down and let that be changed or taken away from them? Remember people, America was founded for the freedom of religion, not against it...
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  4. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra= VIP Member This Topic's Starter

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    I'm of the opinion that "the church going people" are the majority in the western world, the U.S. in particular, there are millions of us.

    And I find agreement amongst many of them as to my views on this subject.

    I believe it is a bit of an extreme lean to the right, politically speaking, to use Christianity to dissuade gay rights now days.

    Here in the United States churches have no business attempting to wreck or stifle civil rights for anybody, such they did to African Americans and are attempting to continue to do to gays.
     
  5. G.Armour

    G.Armour You know you want to. VIP Member

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    Exactly! Its the separation of church and state!!!! And marriage is just that a church thing! So, with that said, the government should not be able to, or shouldn't step in and say its ok for gays to marry, or change anything that the church has set forth!!
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  6. Vihzel

    Vihzel Destroying Balls Everyday VIP Member

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    The Founding Fathers also wanted to avoid people being oppressed by religion, so that's why they created Separation of Church and State (which has been abused). Marriage should NOT be in the legal and governmental system if it is purely religious. It's going against what the Founding Fathers originally wanted. By that logic also... you're alienating men and women who are atheists and agnostic.

    Marriage ceremonies will STILL exist. No one is taking that away. It's just simple lingo that should be altered in the system the governs ALL citizens. Unless... you want a "religious right" to affect ALL citizens whether they like it or not.

    By simply having a "civil union" certificate, it would include ALL citizens who should be treated equally. EVERYONE can have a "civil union" under the law and enjoy all of the benefits that the current marriage certificate brings (the benefits are not religious at all). If you want to have pastor marry you, that's perfectly fine. You will be married under the eyes of the Lord by the pastor. If you do that, but don't get a marriage certificate, then according to the government... you aren't married at all. So just by that alone... the certificate is incorrectly named "marriage certificate" considering you need to have a government official have you and your spouse sign a paper FOR the government and NOT for ANY church.
     
  7. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra= VIP Member This Topic's Starter

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    I disagree with that, of course.

    Marriage is a civil, legal institution needing a license from the state, county or country where the couple want to be legally bound to one another.

    The "church thing" that some couples opt to involve, is merely a ceremony.
     
  8. Vihzel

    Vihzel Destroying Balls Everyday VIP Member

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    My brother's best friend and her husband were NOT married by a church... ANY church. They're both atheists. Are they not married now?
     
  9. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra= VIP Member This Topic's Starter

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    They are legally married, of course. This church stuff really snags a lot of people.. a LOT of people.

    Equating marriage to religion is a shame and it stems from a time when the Christian Church ran the state, centuries ago; they made the laws of the land and enforced those laws.

    Well, most countries in the world, and all in the western world, broke that yoke hundreds of years ago, the U.S. included.

    If you want to live somewhere that to be married is to be bound together by the church, you can do that here as a pretense, but not as anything legally necessary. You'd have to live in a Moslem country to make sure everybody was married by the church.
     
  10. Vihzel

    Vihzel Destroying Balls Everyday VIP Member

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    I also just don't really understand what religions would be included. Is it only under the eyes of the Christian God? Or are religions without gods also included? Is Satanism also included?
     
  11. G.Armour

    G.Armour You know you want to. VIP Member

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    Please close thread!!!!
    The post under mine is right..
    It is to heated of a discussion and both sides will end up trying to hurt the other.. 3 things they always teach me not to discuss while I train ppl are, religion, politics, and race, I honestly believe that this is a topic that shouldn't be either.. I'm sorry if I offended anyone..
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  12. Vihzel

    Vihzel Destroying Balls Everyday VIP Member

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    Wow... I don't even know where to start. Let me just say this... as a gay man, you are completely incorrect in your "assumptions" about my "people". There are homophobic people on these forums, and I wont wait for them to start jumping on this thread since the passageway has been opened.

    Mod, please close this AND the other thread because it's only going to get ugly and hurt people. I know there are some people extremely offended.
     
  13. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra= VIP Member This Topic's Starter

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    What is heated about the discussion? Did I miss a post that got deleted or something?

    I thought we were doing quite well.

    ..haven't looked at the other thread, though, since I moved away from it to not drift off topic anymore. Is it getting personal in there?

    No need to do that, if that's what's happening.
     
  14. G.Armour

    G.Armour You know you want to. VIP Member

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    A
    Yeah, u missed a post that got deleted. I kinda went off a little bit.. didn't mean to, said I was sorry for what I said and now I'm jumping out of this discussion before I get in trouble.. When I get going, I don't know when to stop and people's feelings get hurt. So I'm gonna say I'm sorry again, and back out.. if this thread stays open have fun with it...
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  15. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra= VIP Member This Topic's Starter

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    Yeah, sometimes passion for personal beliefs about something can cause false flash points to come flying up.

    Wanting to subdue the other person in the discussion is when it becomes an argument then a fight.

    Good on you to recognize when it happened, etc.
     
  16. G.Armour

    G.Armour You know you want to. VIP Member

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    Yeah dude, it was weird, normally I can hold back and not lose my cool, but I couldn't help it.. But like u said, I realized it and deleted it. I didn't mean to hurt anyone or offend them, was just trying to get my point across. But I stepped over the line.

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  17. thekarens

    thekarens Well-Known Member

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    This topic used to yank my chain, but I've grown past all that.

    People assume that homosexuals aren't Christians and that marriage is somehow linked to Christianity. Well, I hate to disillusion anyone, but I'm both a Christian and a homosexual. I've been attending a Pentecostal church most of my life. Yes, they know I'm queer, but partner also attends the same church.

    If you want to throw the "Bible forbids homosexuality" thing (which I don't believe) you have to also throw the "Bible forbids divorce" thing as well. It amazes me when people want to use scripture to apply to others, but not themselves.

    Marriage is a legal right, not a religious right. If it weren't you wouldn't have people getting married multiple times, or on the first date. Why is it okay for Liz Taylor to be married 8 times, but it's unacceptable for my partner and me who have been together 10 years in a loving committed relationship to have the same legal rights.
     
  18. G.Armour

    G.Armour You know you want to. VIP Member

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    "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." —1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)

    "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." —Romans 1:26-27 (NKJV)

    "Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine," —1 Timothy 1:9-10 (NKJV)

    These three references indicate that homosexual passions and acts are unnatural, shameful, contrary to sound doctrine and deny entrance to the Kingdom of God. This being so they cannot be the basis of a Christian marriage sanctioned by God's Church. The Church exists to save people, not to bless the means of their damnation. No marriage can be sanctioned by the Church if the very basis of the marriage involves acts that put the couple outside of eternal salvation. No matter what our society may legislate, the law of God is clear -that a marriage is not a godly marriage if it is a same sex union.


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  19. Slug

    Slug Check six! Moderator

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    I think there's life left in this thread, if everyone treats each other with the respect they deserve. It should be possible to hold opposing views without coming to blows, surely? ;)

    We don't live in a religious society, though. Same-sex 'marriage' can be legally conducted by civil officials and are recognised in law, which is all that matters to many (both hetro- and homosexual). Remember too that "the Church" is a broad one, with many interpretations. The Church Of Scotland for example, probably one of the oldest Presbyterian churches in existence, allows ministers to perform same-sex marriages.
     
  20. G.Armour

    G.Armour You know you want to. VIP Member

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    No, but maybe if we were in that kind of society, things would be a better place to live...
    And think about it, if the entire world went gay... that would be the end of mankind.
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  21. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra= VIP Member This Topic's Starter

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    "Better?"

    Perhaps the certain people who interpret the Bible and their faith in ways which restrict certain rights to only certain classes of people would feel that "things would be better."

    That is the stuff of revolutions, my friend.
     
  22. inssane

    inssane Well-Known Member

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    OK, so -
    The "Homosexual Community" actually likes to be called gay, not homosexual and if you are gay, "queer" is acceptable in friendly banter. It's still taboo for a straight guy to call a gay guy queer. It's kind of like the word N!gg3r - it's acceptable by some and not others.
    So saying "gay" and "straight" is not offensive.

    Ahhhh,Church and State - a tedious debate.

    Marriage IS civil AND religious - if it is mandated. Personally, I was raised Catholic and hold these beliefs, but I am science-minded and can't quite buy Adam and Eve and a 70 year old man rounding up animals into a giant hulled boat. Big Bang and that's it.
    Anyhow...even so, I do not want to be married in a religious ceremony. It's a personal choice and doesn't mean I am going to hell.

    Fundamentalists, or "Bible bangers" (slapping your hand on a bible that is), always want to quote verses from the Bible such as:
    "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." (Leviticus 18:22)

    What people fail to realize is that the Bible was written hundreds of years after supposed events, and is open to interpretation. The homily of a Catholic Mass usually takes apart and interprets what was read out of the Bible, and usually real-life applications are spoken about in regards to the Bible passage that was read.

    So homosexuality is blasphemy right?

    "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel. " (1 Peter 2:18)
    -So I guess I can beat my slave and he should still respect me.

    "For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)
    -Interesting as many of us would have been killed at the age of 14.

    "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)
    -So my soul patch is unacceptable, so is a clean shave.

    My favorite:
    "If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched." (Mark 9:43)
    -Some countries apparently have it right.


    The above is why the marriage thing is crap. YES I understand that religious marriage is maybe not the best choice for gay marriage - but there is no reason that civil union is an issue then.

    Taking the Bible literally and thrusting a belief system on people's rights, that is selectively utilized that is, is crap.
     
  23. inssane

    inssane Well-Known Member

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    How would it be the end of the world? The world would be educated, employed, and smelling great!
    :p
     
  24. chrisinsocalif

    chrisinsocalif Well-Known Member

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    People may not agree with the Gay lifestyle they are still being discriminated against. To not give the gay community the same rights as everyone else is a step backward and unconstitutional.
    It's really sad in an educated society people can still think in such a close minded way. From the 19th century to the 1950's we had Anti-miscegenation laws which banned inter-racial marriage Those laws were defended in the past usually by racist interpretations of the bible. Now we see the similar actions with this law.
    If you want to argue Marriage has a religious origin, but so did Christmas which is celebrated by people of all types without a recognition of Christianity. Even then, we have a separation of church and state, which our founding fathers explicitly said "..make no law respecting an establishment of religion."
    Everyone should have the same rights regardless who they are.
     
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  25. aiz4andy

    aiz4andy Well-Known Member

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    Interesting thread.

    There are those on here who are claiming marriage as a blessing reserved for their own religion. Truth is that marriage is more of a natural and cultural institution that has many forms throughout the globe and within many religions and cultures.

    For those who say that homosexuality is unnatural - what the heck are you doing on a computer or using your mobile phone - its not natural! Ever flown in a plane? That ain't natural, either.

    But for the record, homosexuality is a natural occurrence, otherwise there wouldn't be homosexuals, would there?

    And don't try to use the Bible as a source of morality. That same book tells us its acceptable to offer up your own daughter for rape and sacrifice, and that its ok to stone each other to death.
     
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