HTC saying 30fps cap unbreakable?

[Dreamliner]

This is why I hate HTC. All of their issues...fps, h.264, 16 bit...all shotty programming that will never be resolved.

 

[MrX8503]

Actually both devices show signs of lag in that video..

Really? I see the Hero being smoother when scrolling. I think its pretty black and white.

Its even more prevalent knowing that the EVO has 1ghz, while the Hero is half that speed. Question yourself as to why an outdated phone is performing better with animations.

 

[EarlyMon]

Really? I see the Hero being smoother when scrolling. I think its pretty black and white.

Its even more prevalent knowing that the EVO has 1ghz, while the Hero is half that speed. Question yourself as to why an outdated phone is performing better with animations.

I'm very frustrated.

I've said the same thing as eieio, repeatedly, including in that link to my other post.

Yes. It's smoother. WE FREAKING GET IT.

But to me even the smoother one is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

And even though smoother, now eieio reports the same as me - he sees lag in both.

No where did either of us say - "given that they both lag, it's ok."

Nowhere.

Yet you always seem to answer the charge that way.

Why can we not communicate this to you? Where's the failure?

I do not need to ponder WHY a slower device is merely smoother. I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really don't.

Frustrated, ok?

 

[RoboMonkey]

Is it enough of an issue to make you give up on the phone?

That question is for anyone.
So what if HTC is blowing smoke.

 

[MrX8503]

Yes. It's smoother. WE FREAKING GET IT.

But to me even the smoother one is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

And even though smoother, now eieio reports the same as me - he sees lag in both.

Calm down.

The OS being slow is something that Google has to figure out (with Froyo most likely), but what I'm saying is that the EVO is not only slow but its also not smooth. A double whammy.

Under all circumstances this is not acceptable on EVO's part. Grab a Nexus1 or Incredible as a comparison. The Hero being laggy is coming from its inferior processor, the EVO doesn't have that excuse.

Is it enough of an issue to make you give up on the phone?

That question is for anyone.
So what if HTC is blowing smoke.

I don't think many people gave up their EVO, but I'm sure some people did, like myself. I ordered through wirefly and returned the device because of this issue. I may do a review of Wirefly's ordering process and post it here in the forums for other people to see their quality of service.

 

[CriticalCritic]

I'm willing to bet that the official 2.2 will resolve the stuttering issues.

This is why I hate HTC. All of their issues...fps, h.264, 16 bit...all shotty programming that will never be resolved.

I don't disagree with you (about the issue being shotty programming), but it still made me laugh b/c I can't imagine that there's any way the programming could be worse than when the Moment was released.

Shotty programing is what the Samsung Moment had upon release. Of course, never having owned a touch screen smartphone before, I didn't know any better at the time. The transition would stop momentarily when trying to flip between home screens. The scrolling was a serious stuttering joke (the Evo doesn't have sh*t on the Moment's stuttering issues). Trying to interact the phone in any way prompted half-second (at least) freezes. It took Samsung about 4 months to release a patch, and that still didn't take care of everything! yada yada, blah blah blah, you get the idea.

Now that it's running 2.1, the graphics are smooth and beautiful. But that's still doesn't mean it's a good phone. Sammy really dropped the ball on the Moment owners. I don't care to get into the specifics of the hardware issues that lockup the phone several times a day and cannot be resolved, but there's a reason Sammy has completely stopped working on the (still broken) Moment after 8 months.

As for the Evo, it's not as easy to dismiss as the Moment. The Moment was an experiment by Samsung, whereas the Evo is the new flagship for Sprint. I'm willing to bet that they will resolve the (software) issues in the 2.2 release. Otherwise Sprint will be publicly offering 1-obsolete android phone, 1-obsolete and inherently broken android phone, and 1 android phone with a quirky stuttering reputation. And they cannot afford to have another flagship phone go to crap after the pre-fail fiasco. I have confidence that they (HTC+Sprint) will resolve the problems.

 

[EarlyMon]

Under all circumstances this is not acceptable on EVO's part. Grab a Nexus1 or Incredible as a comparison.

Ok, all better and calmed down.

One more time - I do NOT find the lag on the Nexus1 running Froyo to be acceptable - just much less unacceptable than the EVO.

That said - it's one of the several weak factors outweighed by the other many strong factors, so I'm not losing sleep over it. I'm not a gamer.

I just have to go slower than my phone and I can't type quickly on it. (Yeah, checking out the Droid X s/w because of this forum's other users claiming that that fixes that... not sure which way I'll end up on that just yet.)

PS - Missed the part where you've returned your EVO. What's the replacement?

 

[eieio]

Really? I see the Hero being smoother when scrolling. I think its pretty black and white.

Its even more prevalent knowing that the EVO has 1ghz, while the Hero is half that speed. Question yourself as to why an outdated phone is performing better with animations.

Actually the lag on the moment seems worse than it does on the EVO.. The Evo does seem to stutter or hesitate a bit more.. The scrolling is not smooth at times

I doubt the FPS cap is causing it.. I am more inclined to believe its the O.S.

No stuttering or lag on the G-1 is probably because it is running an Android OS that has not been modified?

 

[ARR22]

I guess with the help of my little friend "patience" we will find out whether or not the 2 dot 2 update does anything for the choppiness. Untill then I will be having fun with my EVO. I come from WinMo so I really cant complain to much.

 

[Droidone]

This shows that the evo is not really upgradable even with froyo. One of the enhancements of froyo will be more than 30fps and since the Evo is locked at 30 then froyo will do nothing to make the phone better. The only enhancement will be a little speed. People are looking at this as it doesn't affect me now, but in reality it does affect you. When froyo drops and the comparisons are done, we will all see why this is so important

 

[NeoteriX]

This shows that the evo is not really upgradable even with froyo. One of the enhancements of froyo will be more than 30fps and since the Evo is locked at 30 then froyo will do nothing to make the phone better. The only enhancement will be a little speed. People are looking at this as it doesn't affect me now, but in reality it does affect you. When froyo drops and the comparisons are done, we will all see why this is so important

Google has been quoted that 60fps is and has always been the target for Android. I'm pretty sure I have not seen "fps" as a listed enhancement of Froyo. I'd welcome you to show me otherwise though.

(other performance enhancements, yes, but the addition of a new JIT Dalvik compiler is not a display-related improvement).

 

[EarlyMon]

This shows that the evo is not really upgradable even with froyo. One of the enhancements of froyo will be more than 30fps and since the Evo is locked at 30 then froyo will do nothing to make the phone better. The only enhancement will be a little speed. People are looking at this as it doesn't affect me now, but in reality it does affect you. When froyo drops and the comparisons are done, we will all see why this is so important

Or - once the underlying 2.2 work is done, then either by some genius at XDA - or even by HTC themselves, it's not in the least bit farfetched to expect to see a config option (Settings) like this:

• 60 fps, no HDMI
• 30 fps, HDMI enabled

The thing's been out for little more than a month - maybe the glass is only half-full.

PS - And that's assuming that they just can't bother to sense when the HDMI is connected and then and only then automagically throttle down to 30 fps, with a documented warning of the behavior. I mention this because one XDA thread said the thing couldn't auto-sense the connection, but after the 1.47.whatever update, another poster (sorry, forgot your name) corrected me that when he used HDMI, he got a message to that effect showing that its use was indeed sensed.

Either way - this is simply not that difficult a puzzle to solve.

 

[Aldo Junior Ao2]

I'm going to be honest with you i am overclocked at 1.1 ghz and can reach around 52fps and can't tell the difference between this and how it was stock wise. I don't have another Evo with me but if there is an Game for instance that you think would profit in a faster fps let me know and i will test it out or a 3d app that shows the frames per second and i will see how smooth it runs. I'll run it the way it is and then i'll run it stock to see if there is a difference .

 

[NeoteriX]

Or - once the underlying 2.2 work is done, then either by some genius at XDA - or even by HTC themselves, it's not in the least bit farfetched to expect to see a config option (Settings) like this:

• 60 fps, no HDMI
• 30 fps, HDMI enabled

The thing's been out for little more than a month - maybe the glass is only half-full.

PS - And that's assuming that they just can't bother to sense when the HDMI is connected and then and only then automagically throttle down to 30 fps, with a documented warning of the behavior. I mention this because one XDA thread said the thing couldn't auto-sense the connection, but after the 1.47.whatever update, another poster (sorry, forgot your name) corrected me that when he used HDMI, he got a message to that effect showing that its use was indeed sensed.

Either way - this is simply not that difficult a puzzle to solve.

I haven't updated, and I can confirm that my Evo knows when an HDMI cable is plugged in, and a message goes up in the notification bar.

 

[tmaxey1]

I dont think games are going to be different even if the cap is lifted. At least not 3d games. I doubt the snapdragon processor is capable of running 3d games higher than 30 FPS anyway. In fact i posted an link in the past to a game developers blog from an iphone perspective that mentions how developers keep games at 30fps to keep smooth performance. I think a game developed at 60fps would cause too much strain on a phone processor to get smooth performance.

From a game standpoint I think android has an issue with developers bringing the highest quality games. I think this will change very soon. I am not a gamer on my phone and really only enjoy the novelty games like Angry Birds (i know its not on android yet). I have a 60inch hd lcd and an xbox 360 (30fps also) to play games on. But to each his own.

However, with all of that said. I still would not want any frame restrictions on my phone. I dont see any advantage to being locked to 30fps. So i am not going to argue that its not needed. I want everything to be perfect. If the FPS cap is really causing the phone to operate jittery then sure i want it lifted. But i also dont see myself changing phones because of this. Especially because Samsung Epic or Droid X run faster on benchmark test. That isnt something to get that upset about. I wouldnt want to give up Sense UI for motoblur or touchwiz just because they run a benchmark faster.

 

[MrX8503]

Ok, all better and calmed down.

One more time - I do NOT find the lag on the Nexus1 running Froyo to be acceptable - just much less unacceptable than the EVO.

That said - it's one of the several weak factors outweighed by the other many strong factors, so I'm not losing sleep over it. I'm not a gamer.

I just have to go slower than my phone and I can't type quickly on it. (Yeah, checking out the Droid X s/w because of this forum's other users claiming that that fixes that... not sure which way I'll end up on that just yet.)

PS - Missed the part where you've returned your EVO. What's the replacement?

The EVO does have a lot of things going for it that outweigh some of its flaws, thats really up to the user to determine. I myself just looked for another phone. I ended up replacing the EVO with an iPhone 4, its my very first iPhone and I've waited for a very long time for a contender to give me the smoothest experience possible.

Working with video/animations, I cannot stand any kind of stuttering. I know that its an electronic device, but I want the UI to have an organic feel. What I mean by organic is that it snaps, stretches, speeds up, slows down, smooth transitions. All of these things are very difficult to implement into a UI and so far iOS4 is the best at it. Next time you bounce a ball, see for yourself how it reacts, you'll know what I mean by organic.

I know those points may seem trivial to others, but thats why I say its up to the end user to determine what they want.

Getting back to the lag

I think what is confusing people is the choice of words...lag, stutter, choppiness, blur, slow, etc.

To clarify this, we aren't really talking about speed, we are talking about smoothness. For example its how smooth something goes from point A to point B. The EVO is quick to dash from point A to point B, but the transitions are stuttery, almost like its running on a gimped leg.

To make this even more clear, here's an analogy.

Both you and an Olympic runner do a 100m dash, but the olympic runner is inside a room with a strobe light and you're just outside in day light. Although you finish the race last, your movements will appear smoother.

Speed isn't the EVO's problem, its smoothness. If HTC can fix this cap, then you'll have both speed and smoothness. Which in turn makes it an even better phone.

 

[tmaxey1]

I am wondering if the reason for the lack of smoothness is not about the FPS cap. My reason is that people have now raised the FPS cap with the help of XDA and i have not heard people say the UI is so smooth. In fact in this thread a member mentions that he is overclocked and has FPS cap lifted and he doesnt notice a difference.

Do we have any evidence of someone with a FPS lifted that can show a noticeable difference between uncapped vs capped? I am wondering if there may be a different reason for users seeing a lack of smoothness.

 

[Droidone]

There is clearly a problem and some just don't want to see it but by htc putting this cap, they are crippling an awesome phone. The word Restriction says it all. Phones like the Incredible, Nexus One and Even the Hero can do it but the super phone can't..... Why????

I don't think froyo will bring much enhancements other than speed when it comes to Sense due to this cap. I can't proof it right now but the reviews to come after froyo drops will proove some of these issues are a problem.

Capped Graphics
YouTube - HTC EVO Touch input lag
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE2S2Adj3Rk&feature=player_embedded

Uncapped graphics
YouTube - Evo 4g, uncapped graphics.
YouTube - Evo 4g Uncapped Graphics pt. 2

 

[RoboMonkey]

So are you taking yours back ?

 

[Droidone]

So are you taking yours back ?

If that is to me. I am not taking it back but will be doing hands on with the epic when it drops. This will be the true test of the evo and it's power and speed. I am not saying it's a bad phone but these limitations should not have been placed on such a nice phone. I give htc there props for thinking out the box.

 

[MrX8503]

I am wondering if the reason for the lack of smoothness is not about the FPS cap. My reason is that people have now raised the FPS cap with the help of XDA and i have not heard people say the UI is so smooth. In fact in this thread a member mentions that he is overclocked and has FPS cap lifted and he doesnt notice a difference.

Do we have any evidence of someone with a FPS lifted that can show a noticeable difference between uncapped vs capped? I am wondering if there may be a different reason for users seeing a lack of smoothness.

I think there are videos that show that the two are some how related. It seems like the EVOs that are uncapped no longer have the touch lag, responsiveness, and smoothness issues.

Currently the lag may not seem that big of a deal, if its not to users then thats fine, they are happy with it. I just think that over time (a short time), more and more phones are being released, faster, more powerful. The EVO will begin to show its age much quicker than say a...Nexus1 or the Incredible.

 

[Aldo Junior Ao2]

I never do this but for anyone who asked me does the scrolling feel better,games running smoother and i said No or i dont see a difference. Ummm I kinda ok i take it all back. Once i got the timing setting correct it made a vast improvement on smoothness in almost everything i did. FPS cap has crippled the phone but and this is a great but it can be greatly improved with XDA help or HTC can come through with the fix. Again i take it back for all i have said and my Evo is as smooth as a baby butt. I have tested it using dotty which can follow my fingers movement and it keeps up with me. Also i have tested using Gears and watched the difference in how smooth them gagagears turn.

 

[Droidone]

When I root, it's going to be the first thing that I do. I am still thinking the samsung epic over and don't want to root yet.

 

[MrX8503]

I never do this but for anyone who asked me does the scrolling feel better,games running smoother and i said No or i dont see a difference. Ummm I kinda ok i take it all back.

I think that was one of the main problems. A lot of people kept saying "Mine seems fine and doesn't lag at all".

If you own an EVO and its not rooted, then you have a lag problem on your EVO, Period. The reason people didn't see it is because:

A: They haven't seen another device to compare to
B: They are using the term, lag, slow, stutter, smooth, choppy incorrectly
C: They just aren't sensitive to transitions.

P.S. This wasn't a post to single you out, just making a point in that a lot of people were passing off what they "perceive" as smooth as truth, which was false and resulted in a delayed fix for this device.

 

[tardmobile]

This is why I hate HTC. All of their issues...fps, h.264, 16 bit...all shotty programming that will never be resolved.

I, too, am mad as hell about cathphrase-buzzword-I-read-online-somewhere-that-I-don't-fully-understand-and-haven't-done-any-research-about

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS, BRO