New Pope thread

[SiempreTuna]

Looks like this Papal CEO will at least be fiscally responsible. Reports say that after he became Pope, he took the bus back to wherever he was staying before, instead of moving right into the palace.

A CEO who travels coach; I like that!

Let's see how long that lasts.

I know christians are supposed to be spurn worldly wealth and devote themselves to the aid of the poor, but let's just say that their record - and particularly that of the catholic church - is not too hot on that ..

Seems the board of directors decide to change the marketing if not the product - while his tone is much more attractive, as noted above, Francis (for St Francis Xavier, joint creator of the - much-mistrusted even in the church - Jesuit order) is just as big a bigot as the last two popes.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Let's see how long that lasts.

I know christians are supposed to be spurn worldly wealth and devote themselves to the aid of the poor, but let's just say that their record - and particularly that of the catholic church - is not too hot on that ..

Seems the board of directors decide to change the marketing if not the product - while his tone is much more attractive, as noted above, Francis (for St Francis Xavier, joint creator of the - much-mistrusted even in the church - Jesuit order) is just as big a bigot as the last two popes.

No, Christians are not supposed to spurn worldly wealth and devote themselves to aiding the poor. Common misconception. Some do and there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not accurate to say that all Christians are supposed to do that. The church's record on helping the poor is mixed at best.

Also, he took his name for St Francis of Assisi, not St Francis Xavier.

 

[Dngrsone]

Well your guarantee is no good. He did come from the Americus. Remember, the US does not represent all of America! :smokingsomb:

I am pretty sure that for the majority of people from south of the United States, calling them "American" would be in poor taste, if not downright offensive.

My guarantee stands-- the contextual implication of my statement clearly meant American as in citizen of the USA.

 

[SiempreTuna]

No, Christians are not supposed to spurn worldly wealth and devote themselves to aiding the poor. Common misconception.

That eye of a needle thing JC said? He really meant the eye of a needle. All those dodgy interpretations that somehow turn it into, it's OK to fleece people and make a fortune: nothing more than lies and hypocrisy.

I know it's very hard to be believe, but christianity was originally all helping the poor and less fortunate and loving thy neighbour.

Basically, it was socialism with a deity. How it ever got twisted into the avowed religion of a bunch of heartless bigots supporting extremist right wing economics is beyond comprehension - and way beyond hypocrisy.

The church's record on helping the poor is mixed at best.

Unfair!

There's no mixing: it's uniformly shameful.

Also, he took his name for St Francis of Assisi, not St Francis Xavier.

Really?

I stand corrected.

A lot of people far more familiar with the issue than me were saying it was Xavier on radio 4 this morning.

 

[A.Nonymous]

That eye of a needle thing JC said? He really meant the eye of a needle. All those dodgy interpretations that somehow turn it into, it's OK to fleece people and make a fortune: nothing more than lies and hypocrisy.

I know it's very hard to be believe, but christianity was originally all helping the poor and less fortunate and loving thy neighbour.

Basically, it was socialism with a deity. How it ever got twisted into the avowed religion of a bunch of heartless bigots supporting extremist right wing economics is beyond comprehension - and way beyond hypocrisy.

That's just not true at all. Jesus himself had a number of wealthy followers and he never told any of them to be poor and help the unfortunate. Nicodemus visited Jesus in John 3. He was a "ruler of the synagogue" and at the time would've been entitle to wealth and power. Jesus never condemned him for having either. If the whole point of Christianity is to shun wealth and help the poor then his disciples completely and totally missed it and, in fact, desecrated Jesus' body by burying it in a rich man's tomb.

Really?

I stand corrected.

A lot of people far more familiar with the issue than me were saying it was Xavier on radio 4 this morning.

One of the cardinals who was there (Dolan if I recall correctly) said he specifically stated he was choosing that regnal for Francis of Assisi. I think the Vatican actually issued a press release clarifying that but I'm too lazy to google it up. Not gonna lie.

 

[ElasticNinja]

There's a lot being made of the fact that he's the first from the Western hemisphere, the first from the Southern hemisphere, the first from the New World etc. But he's an ethnic Italian whose parents came from Italy, not Hispanic.

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

To be fair very few Argentinians would look Hispanic. Argentina is the second most white (pure Caucasian) country in the Americas, it would be the whitest if not for their own bit of colonialism in the 1800s. And Italian ancestry is very common there too. A lot of Argentinians wouldn't even look out of place in a small town in Bavaria.

I would say Argentina is the closest thing they could find to places like Italy when it comes to Catholicism, in the Americas.

 

[saptech]

He seems like he may be a good pope, with his heart in the right place and will champion for the poor.

It’s true that Jesus told the rich young ruler to give up his wealth and follow Him. On another occasion, Jesus said, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God”.
On other occasions, Jesus didn’t rebuke friends who owned property or command them to sell their homes and businesses. In fact, He often ate with people and stayed at their homes.

Jesus deliberately drew a ludicrous picture to make a strong impression on those who heard Him. He wanted His disciples to recognize that riches can be a great hindrance to salvation. Then, to make it clear that not all wealthy people reject salvation, He added, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Through the working of the Holy Spirit, even rich people sometimes acknowledge their spiritual poverty, repent of their sins, and follow Christ.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Don't Pope's usually champion the poor? This isn't the US, religious groups usually are fairly pro-welfare measures and such. The problem is that the Church is so illiberal.

 

[saptech]

Well I guess. I'm not catholic, so I don't really keep up. Only pope that really caught my attention and I felt he was sincere was Pope Jonh Paul II. For some reason, the last pope had an evil look about him, to me anyway. But hey, my name is nobody!

 

[A.Nonymous]

The story of the rich young ruler is often cited, but people miss the point. When Jesus asked the ruler to sell what he had and give it to the poor the man refused because he had great wealth. The man loved his wealth more than he loved God. That was the point. His problem wasn't that he was wealthy, his problem was that he loved his wealth more than God.

 

[Dngrsone]

The story of the rich young ruler is often cited, but people miss the point. When Jesus asked the ruler to sell what he had and give it to the poor the man refused because he had great wealth. The man loved his wealth more than he loved God. That was the point. His problem wasn't that he was wealthy, his problem was that he loved his wealth more than God.

"How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."


Jesus also told his disciples to carry no money, wear only the clothes on their backs and accept hospitality wherever it was offered.

This does not sound like an advocate of wealth to me.

 

[A.Nonymous]

"How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."


Jesus also told his disciples to carry no money, wear only the clothes on their backs and accept hospitality wherever it was offered.

This does not sound like an advocate of wealth to me.

So his disciples completely missed what he was saying and desecrated his body and his memory by burying him in a rich man's tomb?

 

[Dngrsone]

So his disciples completely missed what he was saying and desecrated his body and his memory by burying him in a rich man's tomb?

A) the disciples didn't bury him there, that was Joseph of Arimithea, as I recall.

B) would you rather they tossed his body in a well? How do you correlate burying him in a paid-for crypt with desecration?

 

[saptech]

It was Joseph a follower of Jesus who went to the Romans and ask for the body to be buried in his tomb. So he donated it!

 

[A.Nonymous]

A) the disciples didn't bury him there, that was Joseph of Arimithea, as I recall.

B) would you rather they tossed his body in a well? How do you correlate burying him in a paid-for crypt with desecration?

Joseph was one of his disciples (John 19:38). If Jesus was indeed against being rich like you said, then burying a guy who was against wealth in the tomb of a rich man is the ultimate desecration IMO.

 

[ElasticNinja]

So his disciples completely missed what he was saying and desecrated his body and his memory by burying him in a rich man's tomb?

In theory, probably.

 

[dontpanicbobby]

I can't believe you people are already trying to bury the new Pope. Where do you bury a Pope anyway?

 

[copestag]

in the ground

 

[dontpanicbobby]

:congrats:ound::congrats:

 

[Dngrsone]

Joseph was one of his disciples (John 19:38). If Jesus was indeed against being rich like you said, then burying a guy who was against wealth in the tomb of a rich man is the ultimate desecration IMO.

sigh

Not advocating, and being against are two different things.

You have a right to your opinion.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged."

... or the internet corollary: "Troll not, lest ye be trolled."

 

[A.Nonymous]

Well, I don't think mainstream Christianity advocates the prosperity doctrine so I'm not sure what your point is. There are groups within Christianity that do advocate prosperity over everything, but most don't. There do seem to be quite a few (usually non-Christians) who think that Christianity is about living as a pauper and giving everything to the poor and downtrodden. They then follow this up with a rant about how horrible Christianity/all religion is. They back this up by taking one verse completely out of context.

There are groups within Christianity who do practice giving all to the poor. There's certainly nothing wrong with that. But to claim that all Christians should live that way completely misses Jesus' message and isn't backed up by scripture at all.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Well, I don't think mainstream Christianity advocates the prosperity doctrine so I'm not sure what your point is. There are groups within Christianity that do advocate prosperity over everything, but most don't. There do seem to be quite a few (usually non-Christians) who think that Christianity is about living as a pauper and giving everything to the poor and downtrodden. They then follow this up with a rant about how horrible Christianity/all religion is. They back this up by taking one verse completely out of context.

There are groups within Christianity who do practice giving all to the poor. There's certainly nothing wrong with that. But to claim that all Christians should live that way completely misses Jesus' message and isn't backed up by scripture at all.

My local priests always advocated charity, helping the poor, etcetera. I remember in particular a group of priests getting the government to increase welfare assistance and such. From what I was indoctrinated with, Jesus was all for helping those who needed help, and some level of egalitarianism.

 

[A.Nonymous]

My local priests always advocated charity, helping the poor, etcetera. I remember in particular a group of priests getting the government to increase welfare assistance and such. From what I was indoctrinated with, Jesus was all for helping those who needed help, and some level of egalitarianism.

There's nothing wrong with helping the poor and downtrodden. I'm not convinced you can really help them if you're poor and downtrodden yourself though. Look at Mother Theresa for example. I'm told when she died she had two habits to her name. Certainly she didn't have much herself in the way of worldly possessions. However she did have the resources of the church behind her. How much would she have been able to accomplish with no resources at all?

 

[ElasticNinja]

There's nothing wrong with helping the poor and downtrodden. I'm not convinced you can really help them if you're poor and downtrodden yourself though. Look at Mother Theresa for example. I'm told when she died she had two habits to her name. Certainly she didn't have much herself in the way of worldly possessions. However she did have the resources of the church behind her. How much would she have been able to accomplish with no resources at all?

Mother Teresa actually had organisations behind her with an awful lot of money. But she would rather let people suffer for religious reasons I guess. Better than them dying on the street, but that money could have been used.

Also I don't understand your point about the poor not being in a position to help the poor. That is a given, even though it is expected in the US (what with all your rhetoric about families and friends helping each other out).

 

[SiempreTuna]

Joseph was one of his disciples (John 19:38). If Jesus was indeed against being rich like you said, then burying a guy who was against wealth in the tomb of a rich man is the ultimate desecration IMO.

I'd say, if Joseph was a believer he would clearly only have thought of it as a 3 day loan