Offering bounty sprint-virgin :)


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  1. xbrokdikdogx

    xbrokdikdogx Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

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    With the announcement yesterday of a $25 all you can eat data plan using sprint's network I am really concidering this. If only I could transfer my Hero over to Virgin I would be all over this. I know Sprint/boost will activate certain sprint phones on Boost, only after you have created the boost account with a boost phone first. Anyone know a way to do this on Virgin also? Will they ever let us use Android on prepaid services???
     

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  2. cooolone2

    cooolone2 Well-Known Member

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    Well, if the phones work on the same frequency band... the ESN could be changed to make the Hero look like the Virgin Mobile phone. You wold need the Virgin mobile phone 1st. Alas... mimicking or cloning ESN's is illegal so I can't tell you how to do it. Just sayin, it "IS" possible.

    (the illegality is debatable if you own both accounts and are not stealing services)

    Regards
    :cool:
     
  3. cooolone2

    cooolone2 Well-Known Member

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    double post??? Don't know how that happened...
    DELETE
    :cool:
     
  4. xbrokdikdogx

    xbrokdikdogx Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

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    That double post is because the feds have cloned your phone using the ESN and are monitoring you. Lolz, anyway, changing the ESN wouldn't be a problem for me, I could get it done, but is that all that would really be needed? As for Virgin, yeah Sprint used to license the network to them, then they outright bought them last year. So now they own 3 prepaid cell companies along with sprint and nextel postpaid.

    I thought about getting the Boost Mobile $60 everything plan on CDMA, but for the small price difference I wouldn't want to lose Android. However with the new Virgin Mobile plans,
    Sprint Lures Text-Obsessed With Cheaper Mobile Plans (Update2) - BusinessWeek

    ,$25 bucks a month and still having the Sprint network is a smoking deal. Especially when you take into account that my $69.99 plan then adds all the surcharges and fees on to make it actually come out to like $83. Hardly use voice, and if need be I could always rig up sipdroid for when I am home and on wifi.

    Anyway, if it is only the ESN that would keep me from using my Hero on Virgin, buying one of their new phones on the 12th and swapping ESNs and then locking the virgin phone in my safe in case I ever needed it to prove I wasn't cloning for free phone calls and so on....

    Jeez, this law seems kinda silly to me. I understand cloning phones to get free phone and or data service should be illegal, especially for wiretapping purposes but come on, if you own both phones doesn't this law simply protect the carrier so that they can keep their network closed off??? There are plenty of legitimate uses for being able to change your ESN, but I guess I don't have as many lobbyists as the cell companies. :rolleyes:
     
  5. xbrokdikdogx

    xbrokdikdogx Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

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    For the life of me I can't find one thing that clearly states that there is no legal reason or method to change an ESN. I could be mistaken, but follow me on this for just a second.

    When someone comes on a forum and says it is illegal to alter the ESN they almost always refer to this page.

    FCC: Wireless Services: Cellular Services: Operations: Fraud

    The first thing it says though is:
    But if you own both phones they are your property and you should be able to authorize the modification. Since you are not modifying the service that does not apply. Ok, then:
    So if you sign up for the service with your legally purchased phone and provide truthful info about who you are this would not apply. Ok, now onto:
    Ok, so if you have two phones that you own and service that you legally obtained, then you SWAP the ESN and MIN so that they are both unique then you are not walking around with a cloned phone and this part does not apply to you.

    Now further on it states:
    Now I may be missing something here but when I look up section 301 it pertains to cable act reform, once again this does not apply to modifying your ESN. Here is a link to the text of the act from the FCC's website.

    http://www.fcc.gov/Reports/tcom1996.txt

    Now the final part of the FCC's stance is:
    However when you read this law summary, link posted below, you get a different story:
    Global Legal Information Network

    Uh, thanks FCC for leaving out that part! As long as you are not modifying the ESN and MIN so as to obtain service without authorization this wouldn't even apply! However it goes on to state:
    So if you modify your ESN and MIN in connection with a lawful purpose, such as using the device you want to on the network you want to, then it is perfectly legal right??? I may not be a rocket scientist, but I honestly can't see how this is illegal. You own both phones, you modify both so as to ensure that they both have unique ESN and MIN, just to be safe you establish service using the original phone and then switch it after so that you are just choosing which device to use. So long as you never attempt to use both phones on the same network using the same ESN and MIN at the same time, hence making them unique, then no laws have truly been broken. Any legal eagles out there that have more insight into this?

    By the way, I am not posting this info to get something started here, such as talk about how to modify your ESN. I am trying to get a conversation started to see opinions on the law and so on. This post by me, and any other post in this thread by anyone else, should not be considered legal advice nor discussion of how to break any laws. I truly hope the admins and mods will allow this discussion since it is something that usually is only discussed in the dark corners of the internet. It would be nice to be allowed to have an honest discussion out in the open. Thanks.
     
  6. RKMJ

    RKMJ Active Member

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    Since there are literally tens of thousands of pages of FCC and FTC legal documents which reference things like this, I'm not even going to speculate on the legality of this issue in the eyes of the Federal government and the U.S. Justice system. The chances that anyone would bring a fraud suit against you are very slim. What I do know is that it is definitely a breach of the terms of service and terms of use agreements for both Sprint and Virgin mobile. This will get your service terminated and you "blacklisted" by Sprint and its subsidiaries.

    These days, with smartphones especially, the ESN is no longer the only identifier. While it does provide the model of the phone, the phone number, and the main tie to your account, there are a few other identifiers that would conflict with the ESN if you were to clone the ESN of another phone. On dumbphones, there isn't that much more to identify them, but on Smartphones, there is. Also, you have to take into account that there is a hell of a lot of information being exchanged between the network controllers and the phone itself. Running a smartphone with a cloned ESN on a network and constantly using data would only increase your chances of getting caught.

    If they agreed to run an unlocked phone on their network, they would enter the ESN, and the ESN would then match all the other identifiers for said unlocked phone. The hardware profiles and addresses would match up. If you program your Hero to clone the ESN of a feature phone like the LG Rumor Touch, the hardware profiles and addresses will be way off, and there will even be ones for the Hero that don't exist for an LG Rumor Touch. These discrepancies could set off some red flags.

    Essentially, Virgin Mobile says that they will only run Virgin branded phones. Running anything but a Virgin branded phone without their approval is a violation of the terms of service and terms of usage. You could find yourself with more of a hassle than any of that would be worth.

    One last thing to think about would be the actual service. Virgin is a subsidiary of Sprint, and there is a reason why their service is going to be cheaper. You're going to get less of it. I have a friend who has been with Virgin for the past 3 years and while his service has, for the most part, been on par with mine, he has encountered issues. We have been in places together where I have full data service and he has had none. This is mainly because we were in places where Sprint service did not extend. As a Sprint customer, with a Simply Everything Plan, I can roam for free, (which means that I have the benefit of Verizon's data coverage as well as Sprint's.) As a Virgin Mobile subscriber, he does not have that benefit. As Virgin states on their FAQ "If you leave our coverage area, all your text messages will be saved for up to 72 hours. Voicemail messages will be saved until you return." This is because both Texts and Voicemail notifications run over data service, and they don't provide data roaming. Just to be clear, they do provide voice roaming, they don't provide data roaming.

    Also, the Visual Voicemail on your Hero will cease to work entirely, since that service is not set up to work with Virgin's voicemail server.

    If you want to do it, go for it. If you can get your Hero on Virgin...more power to you, but you have to take into account that you will have reduced functionality...if you're lucky.

    Prepaid has always had less functionality and less service than contracted service. That's the way it's always been. If you think about it, it really wouldn't be a very business-savvy move to give the same level of service for a much cheaper price. No company will undercut its own business. You are paying less, but you are getting less.

    Good luck with whatever you choose.
     
  7. xbrokdikdogx

    xbrokdikdogx Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

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    Well my last post wasn't really meant to be a can I do this and get away with it post. Cooolone2's post got me to thinking about the legality issue of modifying your property in order to use it where you want to. So after doing a little research I posted my findings just to see if anyone else dared to discuss it further.

    As for using my Hero to do this, not sure I would right now but not sure I wouldn't either. I do get what you are saying about losing some of the service going to prepaid, but for some people losing a few features and dropping your cost by more than 2/3rds of the price is something to consider. It's not like my Sprint plan is breaking me and to be honest Sprint postpaid already offers the lowest prices available and gives more benefits and features than any of the other carriers. So I love Sprint, bad customer service and all. :)

    Losing roaming isn't a big deal to many people who never use it, like me. I have never had my roaming indicator show on any of my phones. I had actually used Virgin Mobile back in like 2004 or 2005 for a couple months after I moved and no longer got service with t-mobile at my new house. Ended up going with Verizon and hated it. Long story and not relative to this discussion anyway. :) So you lose roaming, not a big deal to me really.

    Visual voicemail, while I love visual voicemail, it's not really necessary when you have google voice. That voicemail actually is better because you get a decent to good transcription right in your mailbox. The only hitch here would be if Sprint will not allow for the free forwarding of voicemail to google voice. I am gonna tweet at virgin mobile real quick and see if they know if you can do this on their service, but Sprint does do this so I am hopeful. Either way, if visual voicemail is necessary I could just, as I already do mostly, give out my google voice number instead of mobile number. This also ensures texts come in over data since google voice sms is over data.

    While I sort-of agree with this, I think Sprint is in a different position here. Sprint has been undercutting their own business for awhile now and I believe it is because Sprint has seen the light and had a realization of the future. Sprint already gives more features than any of their competition and charge much less all while providing nationwide service on their and Verizon's network. Even with all these positives Sprint has been losing customers hand over fist for years. Then they started doing something interesting, Prepaid.

    Sprint had Boost Mobile, but they made that even better by adding a cdma Boost product. Of course they are trying to stop new service on that but it is probably because they Bought Virgin as their CDMA prepaid product last year. With Boost you get unlimited talk, text, web and walkie-talkie for $50 a month. That is with either cdma or iden boost but for cdma boost you must buy one of the phones before they run out because they are not going to ship any more cdma only iden. So Boost already undercuts Sprint and uses either the Sprint or iden networks. Now they have Virgin, and starting on the 12th they offer the Beyond Talk plans. These plans offer unlimited data, text and a limited number of voice minutes. They also offer blackberry service for $10 a month, so for $35 a month you get 300 minutes voice, unlimited blackberry, unlimited web and unlimited text and all on Sprint's network. That is an insanely good deal to someone who doesn't use voice as much as they do data and folks who want to live in the BlackBerry world. Sprint also has another prepaid service that is subsidized for low income families. It offers a free amount of minutes per month and is in select cities now, but supposedly will be available in 25 states by the end of the year.

    So sprint owns 2 post-paid services and 3 pre-paid services and rumor has it they may be working on adding yet another pre-paid service soon. So what does all this mean as far as subscribers??? Well they still lose subscribers every time new data comes out but breaking it down by services shows they lose subscribers in post-paid but gain in pre-paid. No wonder they are focusing on Pre-paid now huh??? They appear to have a good idea of how to work it too, but creating multiple products that cater to different type of customers. We customers like to have things our way after all don't we?

    So if you are a voice heavy user sign up with Boost and get unlimited voice, the main drawback being that data is not as nice as the phone selection limits it's usefulness. If you use a lot of data and less voice, go with Virgin and enjoy the better data service with more data-centric phones. In the future the main thing keeping post-paid subscribers could very well be the access to the latest and greatest phones.

    The last thing I'll say right now is that regardless of what the carrier says about restricting usage to certain devices they are wrong. Anyone remember when they were auctioning off bandwidth not too long ago and device access and network openness became an issue? Verizon was the worst about only allowing devices they crippled to be used on their networks. Well this isn't the year 2000 anymore and there is no reason to think it is right for a carrier to be able to tell you not to use your phone that is compatible with their network.

    The way I see it is this, Sprint owns both services and offers the Hero and the LG Rumor Touch on their network. So is there any reason they should be allowed to tell you that you can't take the phone you own, lg rumor touch, and activate it on virgin? No, there is no reason they should be allowed to force you to buy a new phone when the one you have is compatible. How is any other phone offered from Sprint any different? This is tantamount to your cable company telling you that in order to use their internet you have to purchase a new computer from them and for their cable to work you have to buy a new tv from them. Actually, since Sprint owns both services, this is more like the cable company making you buy a tv from them to watch their basic service and then when you decide you want to change the service to digital or HDtv or whatever then they make you buy the exact same phone model again. There is no reason Sprint, or any carrier should be able to legally do this.

    The carriers should have open networks that allow access to all different kinds of devices. Instead of thinking networks are a closed ecosystem they eventually need to embrace the openness we all expect in the other facets of our lives.
     
  8. xbrokdikdogx

    xbrokdikdogx Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

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    By the way, just looked and the LG Rumor Touch actually has a better user rating on Sprint's site than does the Hero, albeit with a much lower amount of reviews. 4.7 to 4.5 from the users. Interesting...
     
  9. balazer

    balazer Active Member

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    To continue with a purely academic discussion of the legality of cloning: (I am certainly not advocating cloning)


    Though the FCC has taken the position that cloning is not allowed even for otherwise legal purposes, I can find no federal statute barring it. United States Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 47, section 1029 (as amended in 1998) talks about intent to defraud and unauthorized access, but does not otherwise forbid cloning. It also talks about hardware and software used to perform cloning, but these are only forbidden when configured so as to allow a device to obtain services without authorization.
    United States Code: Title 18,1029. Fraud and related activity in connection with access *devices | LII / Legal Information Institute

    California penal code section 502.8 forbids the possession of phones with modified serial numbers, but only if such modification is to "avoid the payment of any lawful charge for telecommunications service" or other criminal purpose.
    California Penal Code Section 502.8 - California Attorney Resources - California Laws

    In some states, e.g. California, changing a serial number or electronic serial number on any property is illegal, no matter the purpose. (California Penal Code Section 537e)

    In Michigan it is legal so long as you are not selling such property. (Michigan Penal Code 750.536a)
    Google Answers: Statutes prohibiting removal of serial numbers from products


    If you changed a serial number so as to be able to use a different kind of phone with a particular service, does that amount to unauthorized access? (Are devices different from those supported by the service provider considered unauthorized, even if you are paying for service?)

    If you changed a serial number so as to be able to use a different kind of phone with a particular service, and that service is less expensive than what could otherwise be obtained for that device, does it amount to an attempt to avoid payment? (even though you are paying for the services that you are using)


    One thing is clear from reading the statutes and background materials: they were designed to prohibit clearly criminal activity, such as outright theft of service, sale of stolen property, and other fraud. I think they were never intended to stop a technician from doing his job, or a hobbyist from pushing the limits of his hardware or service. But I suppose you would need a lawyer or a judge to tell you where the line is. I don't want to be the one to test the legal limit.
     
  10. Lmp1054

    Lmp1054 Member

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    Okay,

    Can we get off the subject of is it legal, and back to CAN it be done? or does anyone have a "Friend" who has done it?

    Do to my current status of "poor college" student a smart phone with internet access and Android and only $25 a month is to hot to pass up. I currently use a G1 one given to me by my older brother and pay 52 a month for 500min and unlimited text on tmobile NO INTERNET... I have access to a old Sansung m900 that is on the sprint network.

    No one has to admit if they did it or not, since its still up in the air if its legal or not.

    LP
     
  11. balazer

    balazer Active Member

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    If you have to ask, it's not something you should attempt. :p

    To save money on service with an Android phone, I recommend any of the following:

    * Samsung Intercept on Virgin Mobile USA. The phone is not the greatest, but the worst Android phone is better than the best dumb phone, if you ask me. Service pricing is not yet announced, but I'm anticipating $25-30 per month.

    * Your G1 or another GSM Android phone on Wal-mart Family Mobile. With two or more lines, the base price gets a bit lower, and data is super cheap at $40 for 1 GB with no expiration. Use WiFi to keep your data use low. The G1 is still a halfway decent Android phone, if you put a custom ROM on there. Use the last 4.2 CyanogenMod, or the latest nightly 6.x.

    * Motorola Droid on Page Plus TNT-1200. The 50 MB they give you is not much, but if you are careful, it will work. Keep WiFi connected as much as possible. (change the WiFi sleep policy to never sleep) Use DroidWall and allow only certain apps to use the 3G connection. If you limit it to the essentials like Google Voice, Maps, and Opera Mini, you'll have little trouble staying under 50 MB. If you want Gmail also, turn off Gmail sync and refresh manually when you need to check for new messages or send a message. (or you might try leaving Gmail sync on, if you don't get a ton of email) Use 3G Watchdog to keep track of your data usage.
     
  12. MahaloCat

    MahaloCat Well-Known Member

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    NOPE - Avoid the intercept - you will be 10 times more frustrated with it...then a hero.....Unless you are broke and love a keyboard
     
  13. Lmp1054

    Lmp1054 Member

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    Are you saying a Hero will work on virgin mobile?
     
  14. Lmp1054

    Lmp1054 Member

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    Intercept looks to be the same as the M900... so this seems like the best option....
     
  15. Lmp1054

    Lmp1054 Member

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    HEY!!!

    I just a HTC HERO

    So i want to be able to use it on virgin mobile. Can anyone help, I have looked through the cricket forums and they are helpful....

    I need feedback I would hate to go at it alone.
     
  16. Lmp1054

    Lmp1054 Member

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    I guess i am on my own on this one.... wish me luck
     
  17. Lmp1054

    Lmp1054 Member

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    I gave up on this,

    $219.99 at best buy minus 10% coupon $183.33 plus tax $198.45

    Sold old g1 for $60

    So total spend $138.45

    Monthly saving (46.71-27) $19 a month

    So break even point is 7.30 months.

    So breakdown,
    Original money Spent $138.45 for a phone slightly better then my g1
    Save $19 a month over original plan
    Lose Free Nights/Weekend/Mobile to Mobile Minutes
    Lose 200 anytime minutes
    Gain 3G internet...

    So Hopefully in 7 months someone will be able to figure out how to get Evo 4G to work on virgin network lol
     

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