Our Rights!!!

[SamuraiBigEd]

I have been thinking of late, why is it the carriers and phone manufacturers are held to a different standard than other companies? Really, if you buy a car and change any component they are not allowed to void your warranty if it is an EPA approved part, they can't void it for running different oil as long as it meets API specifications, or more on target Dell can't void your warranty because you made changes to the operating system on your computer. Somebody please explain to me why Sprint, ATT, Verizon and T-Mobile can!

Yes, that is a somewhat rhetorical question, I understand the motivation behind it, the all mighty dollar. They want their precious apps protected, want, no expect me to use those apps, never mind the fact that I couldn't give a flying flip about Nascar or the NFL. I paid for it, I want the phone to be equipped and run the way I think it should!

Once again, I have been giving it some thought. Look at the number of Android (and yes, even iPhone) users out there, look at the number of sites devoted to Android. If we could get together and let our voices be heard we might actually get some recognition in Washington, maybe even some regulations passed!

Don't get me wrong, if you brick your phone while rooting you should be S.O.L., but if you are like most and can successfully follow instructions, accomplish this task and end up with a stable operating phone I don't think we should have to be worried whether or not we will be able to get warranty service or insurance replacement.

If the carriers want to fully subsidize our phones or go on a lease program, then more power to them. If, however, we have to pay at all for the phones then we should be able to do as we please with them.

I think we should get the other forums involved, get all our voices together and see if we can get something done about this!

 

[EarlyMon]

Strictly speaking - we pay for the resources those apps use.

Why should we have things chatting on the net for one instant that we cannot control?

 

[nlsme]

Because those were the conditions you agreed to when you bought the phone?

 

[EarlyMon]

And we were fully apprised of their implications?

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

Because those were the conditions you agreed to when you bought the phone?

That is irrelevant, a car manufacturer can't under any circumstances make you sign an agreement that waves your rights regarding warranty coverage. For example, they aren't allowed to dictate what oil you run in your engine other than meeting certain specifications, otherwise every manufacturer would say you have to use their brand of oil.

Now if you neglect the regular maintenance of that oil or disregard the specifications then you are responsible for the damage you caused. It falls on the manufacturer to show that is what is responsible for the damage at that point.

If you root and rom your phone but your screen develops a dead area, how is that related to rooting? What if your power button has a manufacturers defect? They should not be able to void the entire warranty because of one change. They are within their rights to void the software warranty at that point, but hardware, unless they can prove a direct relation should be covered.

This is a double standard, all companies should be held to the same ideals no matter what they produce or service they offer.

 

[nlsme]

When you buy a car, does the salesman go through the warranty line by line with you to make sure you know that if you change out the motor it voids the warranty? They make sure they give you that little thick book full of fine text for a reason.

 

[nlsme]

Okay another car analogy, try messing with the code in your cars computer, and see if they will touch it for a blown wiper motor under warranty. Once you void the warranty, its gone. Cell phone companies wont void your warranty for using an aftermarket battery, charger, or case(the "oil").

 

[copestag]

or in the analogy of computers.......... try flashing a custom bios on your computer (which is the equivalent to a custom rom on your phone) and see if its still under warranty....... not a chance

 

[EarlyMon]

I'd think flashing BIOS would be like flashing the bootloader.

ROM of kernel and above, that's like putting Linux in place of Windows.

Just have them stop treating these things like feature phones. Act like Microsoft or Apple, ok, ship with bloatware, but let those that don't want it to remove it.

I've emailed Sprint's CEO to inform them this is what drove me to rooting in the first place.

 

[cipher6]

Dell can't void your warranty because you made changes to the operating system on your computer. Somebody please explain to me why Sprint, ATT, Verizon and T-Mobile can!

Don't get me wrong, if you brick your phone while rooting you should be S.O.L.

So, the issue is... what?

but if you are like most and can successfully follow instructions, accomplish this task and end up with a stable operating phone I don't think we should have to be worried whether or not we will be able to get warranty service or insurance replacement.

Look at all the issues that come up while rooting and flashing all kinds of weird ROM/kernel/radio combinations. If I monkey with my phone to the point something goes goofy, why should it be a carriers responsibility to fix it?

They guarantee, in the form of a warranty, that with the equipment and code they put in there, it will work. You start loading it up with stuff they didn't create or test, then expect them to be financially responsible when your experiment goes wrong? Then cry about how evil they are, for not paying to fix the thing you broke.

 

[nlsme]

This is trivial, and beside the point, but it is the manufacturers warranty that is voided. Has nothing to do with the carriers.

 

[Crude]

I drive a diesel. It's common knowledge that diesels have more power and better fuel economy if you are willing to tune the engine to your desired use. For example, a truck can get much improved fuel economy if you set the computer too weak to pull any real load. Also you can get much better hp/torque if you neglect fuel economy.

Interestingly enough, adding this tuning in form of a chip voids your warranty.

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

Okay another car analogy, try messing with the code in your cars computer, and see if they will touch it for a blown wiper motor under warranty. Once you void the warranty, its gone. Cell phone companies wont void your warranty for using an aftermarket battery, charger, or case(the "oil").

Actually it's not, they will still cover the wiper motor. What most people run into is an unscrupulous dealer that is trying to get out of doing the warranty work, but if you press it should still be covered. I have seen this firsthand.

or in the analogy of computers.......... try flashing a custom bios on your computer (which is the equivalent to a custom rom on your phone) and see if its still under warranty....... not a chance

So, the issue is... what?


Look at all the issues that come up while rooting and flashing all kinds of weird ROM/kernel/radio combinations. If I monkey with my phone to the point something goes goofy, why should it be a carriers responsibility to fix it?

They guarantee, in the form of a warranty, that with the equipment and code they put in there, it will work. You start loading it up with stuff they didn't create or test, then expect them to be financially responsible when your experiment goes wrong? Then cry about how evil they are, for not paying to fix the thing you broke.

You did not understand my point, if you mess it up then yes, the software warranty is void but these phones are hard to brick and can usually be restored to working condition. My point is why void the whole warranty, especially on unrelated components, the carriers and or manufacturers should have to be able to prove the rooting and rom caused the damage. Instead they choose the path that insures they won't have to repair or replace a defective product.

Early hit it right on the head, the main point is having to root just to remove bloatware you don't want on your phone. You paid for it, you should have the right to remove things you don't want just like on your computer. How would you like it if Dell said removing ANY preloaded program from your computer would completely void your warranty? And they won't void your warranty if you load Linux on the computer either, so why the issue with changing to a different flavor of Android. Yes, there should be checks and balances in place, if you flash a development rom you do so at your own risk, but a stable full release should be acceptable. And the carriers and manufacturers could set up an approval process for developers to send in rom's to get on a list. This would help in many ways, the dev's could start charging a fee (I wouldn't mind spending $10-20 on a rom) to cover their time and expenses as there would likely be a fee for approval.

I am not asking them to cover our screw ups, just legitimate claims. And the insurance is something we are paying for as well, they should cover the phone no matter what. Charge an extra buck or two for rooted phones if they have to, or reward stock users with a discount (like that will happen). If Sprint did these things I can guaranty there subscribership would go up, and it may take one doing it to make the others follow suit but it needs to be across the board, including the iPhone (Apple is a whole other mess, standing behind voiding computer warranties because people smoke), Blackberry, Windows and WebOS.

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

I drive a diesel. It's common knowledge that diesels have more power and better fuel economy if you are willing to tune the engine to your desired use. For example, a truck can get much improved fuel economy if you set the computer too weak to pull any real load. Also you can get much better hp/torque if you neglect fuel economy.

Interestingly enough, adding this tuning in form of a chip voids your warranty.

As do I, and can attest that putting a chip or programmer in the truck is the best thing you can do. If you keep your foot out of it you will actually get better mileage even on the performance settings. But this is a whole other warranty issue argument I have been down before, and with this the mantra is "I am my own warranty station". At least in relation to drive train issues.

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.

 

[nlsme]

For one, a dealer has nothing to do with the warrany. They get paid to do warranty work, and unscrupolous dealers will often fix something under warranty that shouldn't be. More money in their pocket. Most dealers will not touch it.

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

This is trivial, and beside the point, but it is the manufacturers warranty that is voided. Has nothing to do with the carriers.

The carriers generally cover warranty issues for the first year, but I have included both in these arguments since ultimately it is the manufacturer that covers it and they will need to be pressured to do this as well.

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

For one, a dealer has nothing to do with the warrany. They get paid to do warranty work, and unscrupolous dealers will often fix something under warranty that shouldn't be. More money in their pocket. Most dealers will not touch it.

Yes, but they don't get full shop labor for warranty repairs.

 

[nlsme]

So, who should be responsible for compiling this list of roms. The carriers, so the manufacturers have no say in what effects their warranty. The manufacturers? So the carriers have no say as to what runs on their network. The devs are the minority. The companies are in business to make money. To them, and google, open means free to do what THEY want. Not that the end user can do whatever they want. Google expressly stated this.

 

[nlsme]

The carriers generally cover warranty issues for the first year, but I have included both in these arguments since ultimately it is the manufacturer that covers it and they will need to be pressured to do this as well.

its called a MANUFACTURERS WARRANTY for a reason. The carrier is just the middle man. Just like car dealers.

 

[cipher6]

My point is why void the whole warranty, especially on unrelated components, the carriers and or manufacturers should have to be able to prove the rooting and rom caused the damage. Instead they choose the path that insures they won't have to repair or replace a defective product.

Their warranty the equipment and code they put in there... they are guaranteeing with those components and code it will work. Your asking them to guarantee something they didn't test or put in the phone.

And saying, they should have to prove it was the flashing that caused it... there is no way. You load custom code, that causes your battery and GPS to over heat, killing the components. Without lots of testing and research, how can they verify and prove the code caused the failure and not defective parts?

Early hit it right on the head, the main point is having to root just to remove bloatware you don't want on your phone. You paid for it, you should have the right to remove things you don't want just like on your computer.

I agree there, but let me ask you this... is there bloat-ware on your phone? can you follow instructions enough to take it back to stock if you had to file a warranty claim? So whats the issue?

How would you like it if Dell said removing ANY preloaded program from your computer would completely void your warranty?

Microsoft got sued for doing that with Internet Explorer.... It happens. I think your issue is more with bloatware than warranty policy... and I'm with you 100% on that one.

Yes, there should be checks and balances in place, if you flash a development rom you do so at your own risk, but a stable full release should be acceptable. And the carriers and manufacturers could set up an approval process for developers to send in rom's to get on a list. This would help in many ways, the dev's could start charging a fee (I wouldn't mind spending $10-20 on a rom) to cover their time and expenses as there would likely be a fee for approval.

Thats a cool idea, but without that kind of stuff in place, it silly to say HTC has to warranty (guarantee it works) something they've never tested.

 

[byteware]

That is irrelevant, a car manufacturer can't under any circumstances make you sign an agreement that waves your rights regarding warranty coverage.

Yes they can. You just wouldn't sign it. You would go with a different company. They know that, and so they don't do it.

 

[byteware]

Yes, but they don't get full shop labor for warranty repairs.

Warranty repairs are the most profitable. You get more than your normal shop labor for warranty repairs, in the fields I'm familiar with at least.

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

Yes they can. You just wouldn't sign it. You would go with a different company. They know that, and so they don't do it.

Guess I didn't word that correctly, they can't make you sign something requiring you to use only their products. It is illegal for them to require you to use a certain brand of products for vehicle maintenance or repair. The parts just need to meet certain criteria.

 

[nlsme]

Guess I didn't word that correctly, they can't make you sign something requiring you to use only their products. It is illegal for them to require you to use a certain brand of products for vehicle maintenance or repair. The parts just need to meet certain criteria.

Same holds true for phones. That is why there are aftermarket batteries.

 

[SamuraiBigEd]

Their warranty the equipment and code they put in there... they are guaranteeing with those components and code it will work. Your asking them to guarantee something they didn't test or put in the phone.

And saying, they should have to prove it was the flashing that caused it... there is no way. You load custom code, that causes your battery and GPS to over heat, killing the components. Without lots of testing and research, how can they verify and prove the code caused the failure and not defective parts?




I agree there, but let me ask you this... is there bloat-ware on your phone? can you follow instructions enough to take it back to stock if you had to file a warranty claim? So whats the issue?





Microsoft got sued for doing that with Internet Explorer.... It happens. I think your issue is more with bloatware than warranty policy... and I'm with you 100% on that one.



Thats a cool idea, but without that kind of stuff in place, it silly to say HTC has to warranty (guarantee it works) something they've never tested.

Point 1 & 2 refer to the approval process that could be set up.

Point 3, yes, but I should not have to do that in the first place, none of the bloatware is a necessary component of the Android operating system so it should not be "locked".

Point 4, that is not exactly what Microsoft got sued for. They were shipping with Internet Explorer, which you could remove if you wanted, Netscape in particular was suing Microsoft because they wanted to be a preloaded browser on all Microsoft OS's, they felt it was unfair competition, and to quote Bill Gates "that would be like telling Coke they have to include one can of Pepsi in every six pack they sell."

Point 5, that is exactly why I propose such a testing procedure. I am not asking for anything unfair or to be coddled in any way, just come up with a system that ensures everybody can set up their phone the way they want that is fair for all parties including the manufacturer and carriers.