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Putting to rest the myths about Task Killers/RAM Optimizers and the like

This is a bit off subject, but since the original post was about battery drain I think it's still relevant and not worth opening a new thread for. Anyways, I have a no brand Chinese phone that has the worst battery performance ever! I can take it off the charger at 99% and it will drop to 33% in one huge chunk, nothing in between. I can put it on the charger immediately and it goes back to 99% in five minutes. The battery is obviously total garbage, but I want to know if the percentages that Android itself gives me on the battery are reliable and "true" or just as flawed as the battery itself???
That's hard to say - it could be a hardware fault elsewhere too.

I mean, obviously as you said, that's pretty messed up.

Try a factory data reset - might help.

Is the battery swollen? If so - it's definitely bad and needing replacing.
 
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I meant it indicates 10-20 APPS terminated by Battery Doctor. So, if BD is deleted, how do I manually stop these offenders?
Outside of what BD said - how do you know those things were actually running?

Those apps hogging memory, according to most all task managers?

They're not there.

They're hibernating in a cached state, doing nothing. Kill them and get the opposite of what you expect - Android will run them before you know it trying to sort out the state it was managing just fine on its own.
How did your apps and processes become "offenders?"

You can try System Panel (thanks crashdamage, I have it and forgot about it lol) or Quick System Info Pro.

I have before me my phone, just idling and showing me Quick System Info Pro data.

I have over 40 apps and processes - right now - consuming 0% (meaning, less than 1%) according to Quick System Info Pro. According to System Panel, many of those are around 0.2% cpu consumption historically. I have eight processes consuming between 1 and 2%. The total of all background processes and the kernel is going between 35 to 42%

Quick System Info Pro itself - needed 9% cpu for quite a while to sort all of that out - then dropped to 6, and now it's down to 1 or 2%.

Power consumption for memory is constant - doesn't matter if you're using 1% or 99% - ram requires constant power.

The only variables for power consumption are the processor(s), the radios and the screen - and basically, the only power variable for apps is cpu consumption.

System monitors tend to consume more power than most of the apps.

Automatic task killers need to monitor the system - so let's try an experiment.

I've installed Battery Doctor.

And it's telling me that I have 39 problems that it needs to optimize.

I find this very interesting because the 39 apps that it's identified are ALTOGETHER using less than 15% of my battery - and that's only in RARE spurts, if ever. For the majority of the time, those apps are using ZERO PERCENT of my processor when I'm not using them.

And right now, when Battery Doctor said they needed to go - they were using - 0.0% of my cpu.

So, let me go and instrument my running processes - what do I find?

That Battery Doctor is using 5% of my cpu resources to identify the 39 apps and processes that are right now using ZERO PERCENT that it wants to kill.

If I let it "optimize" - it's going to use more cpu power for the "clean up" - and then the operating system is going to get quite confused thinking an error occurred with 39 hibernating apps that it was doing just dandy managing all on its own - so it's going to get busy trying to sort out its management tables - all at a higher cpu cost than normal.

So - using Battery Doctor to find apps using zero resources is going to take 5% cpu.

But its proportional now isn't it?

My total CPU load is below 50% - and 5% on 50% is actually a 10% increase in CPU power consumption.

Now - add another 5% - at least and I'm joking that it's that low - for the system to sort out what Battery Doctor "optimized."

Same math again - and what did I just demonstrate?

Battery Doctor just hit my processor with a 20% power increase at each optimization cycle -

All to kill apps that were quietly using NO power resources.

(Note - kill. What does it mean to kill something not actually running? What did Battery Doctor actually do? Think about it.)


You can try this yourself, repeat my steps - I promise you'll get the same results (more or less, depending on your phone's processor and what you have it configured to do).

Now - you tell me - who's the real offender here?

Android?

Apps quietly being managed and minding their own business?

Or Battery Doctor?

See why we all keep calling it snake oil now? ;) :)

PS - I've uninstalled Battery Doctor.

They ought to call it Battery Doctor Moreau because that thing is its own horror show.
 
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Wow ! Impressive. I have no vested interest in Battery Doctor or any other program. But prefer not to do tons of reading. I'm delighted to delete anything needed to extend battery life and reduce heat, etc. Given that this Battery Doctor often indicates it stops 15 to 25 apps, would someone be so kind as to outline a "cookbook" simple method to solve this? Don't want to "FORCE STOP" apps each and every time the phone is booted up.

I sure is impressive to see DU Speed Booster do all that stuff for ":more speed, more fun". It just killed 29 apps and cleaned 300 MB of trash, and the score went from 35 to 100.

Androids are not my specialty, so please someone make a simple guide to follow to cure this app and power issue. (Now will go look at EarlyMon's links)
 
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The "simple cookbook to solve this" is to uninstall Battery Doctor. If you want to know why Early Mon has painstakingly provided plenty of information.

You may not like to read, but if you don't read you won't learn and if you don't learn then you'll continue to believe crap like Battery Doctor actually works. And your devices will not deliver all they are capable of.
 
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The "simple cookbook to solve this" is to uninstall Battery Doctor. If you want to know why Early Mon has painstakingly provided plenty of information.

You may not like to read, but if you don't read you won't learn and if you don't learn then you'll continue to believe crap like Battery Saver actually works. And your devices will not deliver all they are capable of.

Snake oil shit like battery doctors and task killers can actually cause the phone to malfunction, make it sick. Friend of mine a couple of months ago was complaining about the clock and weather disappearing from the lock screen until he rebooted, and things like calendar widgets were sporadically not updating. And that turned out to be some task killer thing he installed.

Battery doctors really are like the equivalent of throwing a spanner into the works of a smoothly operating machine. Often there's a spyware aspect of these "free" tools, like it just might be phoning home all your personal and private information to a server in Beijing, i.e. data mining. FYI Cheetah Mobile the makers of Battery Doctor are Chinese.
 
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Many Internet posts believe in Battery Doctor: http://www.gizmag.com/battery-life-how-to-android/30203/
Many people on the internet believe that we never landed on the moon.

But we did.

My first college physics textbook (nod to Hadron, H&R of course lol) started each chapter with an interesting quote. My favorite begins -

There is no democracy in physics. We can't vote (on an idea, it has to be tested).

Words to live by.

I could get all high horsey and explain that I've actually written operating systems so my vote counts more than all of those others combined.

But that would be wrong. That would just be a different kind of voting.

Germany adopted a new ideology in the first half of the 20th century - by an overwhelming vote.

America elected Nixon by a landslide and he claimed he wasn't lying even after it all came unraveling.

Now - and this is most important - I'm not inviting political comments. If anyone doesn't like I just said, drop me a line privately and I'll retract it.

I am saying that no matter the popularity - the vote as I call it - that doesn't matter when it comes to physical systems.

Just like vehicles we rode to the moon, your phone is a physical system.

There is no democracy in smartphones. We can't vote on task killers and ram sweepers, we have to test them, believe the evidence and understand it.

Just running the task killer or ram sweeper is not testing. There is no independent check.

My second big post tells you how to run the procedure for yourself and tells you exactly what tools you need.

My method uses two independent monitoring tools to evaluate what the automatic task killer really did. You can use the method on Battery Doctor or anything else making the same outrageous claims.

The results are conclusive and very clear.

Two independent monitors disagree with the snake oil when it says that a lot of apps are running. They are not. You can see the proof for yourself.

That's part one of the con game debunked.

The snake oil claims to improve performance.

Both monitors will independently agree that the snake oil does the opposite. It degrades it.

Part two of the con is debunked.

Debunking part three of the con appeals to your common sense - once you have two independent monitors prove that the snake oil lied about the apps that were running and prove that it lied in its claims to improve performance, are you really going to believe a score that it gives you as so-called proof that it helped? I hope not.

Look at System Panel - the free version will tell you that some of those "offending" apps are actually cached.

What that means -

First, an app goes to sleep. That's not a concept, sleep is a defined running state. The app is in the background, ready to go when you need it - but it is consuming zero power.

Next comes cached. If an app sleeps long enough, Android will take a really tiny snapshot of its state - a few dozen bytes - and get rid of the rest of it. Now that app is available on a moment and half's notice. It takes no power and it takes a few bytes of ram - even if the app itself is megabytes, it won't be in ram. Android has seen to that.

And if it's an app you run often, don't be surprised to find the app cached after you boot your phone and haven't done anything yet. Android is not stupid, it remembers.

Both sleeping and cached apps are said to be hibernating.

Task killers identify them as running - they're not. Then they claim to kill them. They do not. Then they claim performance increases. It can not. Hibernating apps are not running.

Ram cleaners claim the same. They decode a few dozen bytes of cached apps that are not in memory, calculate what the ram usage would be if they were, erase a few dozen bytes and then claim to clean up all of that ram - that might get used in the future. Maybe. If you launch a cached app. They don't clean megabytes - they clean a few bytes and lie.

Android is not stupid, so it reloads the managed data - the automatic snake oil sees it and the cycle repeats.

You go and check, and it lies about all the good it does you.

And at that point, you're either being fed recurring ads, or a sales pitch to go pro and pay for the lies, or it's data mining your personal info. Sometimes all of the above.

All at a fat profit margin for the dev, for an app that lies and convinces you with pretty eye candy. (I gotta hand it to Battery Doctor - it's downright gorgeous. So was the hooker I saw downtown last weekend standing on the corner but I digress. ;))

Here's your cookbook.

Leave Android alone.

If and only if you really need to check something, run one of the three monitors mentioned in this thread, and only to find and get rid of bad apps. That you do by hand. By uninstalling and replacing.

Because those apps that you need a cookbook to kill are not running and you've been lied to.

You can prove it yourself if you don't want to take my word for it. I've shown you how.

In parting, I want you to remember what Abraham Lincoln said - "Don't believe everything you read on the internet, unless it's EarlyMon and friends explaining how Android works." :)
 
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Sorry if im wrong here op but...erm... guaze.. i smell a troll!!!!
I'm gonna say not.

You can fool all of the people some of time, and that includes you and me.

Our bud here just needs our help getting unfooled. ;) :)

I joined on my second Android. Huge battery problems. I was convinced that Android was broken. I mean, Linux isn't broken, and it's not called Linux, it's called Android.

I was told all of the same as I'm telling now and I didn't believe it.

Because a task killer helped me, I had proof.

But only for a little while. Then my battery went to hell until I found a better task killer. The cycle repeated.

Until I discovered that I could get a command shell into Android and then discovered that I could run my own command line Linux probes to see what was really going on.

All of my trouble came from one bad bloatware app. Once I found it, I got rid of it and suddenly everything that I argued against was proven true.

I come down on task killers because back then, my so-called success stories convinced others to use them.

It's my One Regret here so I try to make it up and pay it forward. :(
 
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It's been hashed out before. Why you don't need a task killer. I know it's a long thread, but it is a great example of many common logical fallacies used every day on the internet, including your example of Argumentum ad Populum..
Ardcoille's thread! Thank you for finding it! We gotta get that into the Android Lounge /News sticky - that's the one we need. Archoille - what a great and knowledgeable guy!

And thanks for the second link - boom, bookmarked! :)
 
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Reach down, grab your left foot, pick it up. However much is comfortable.

A foot or two? (Half meter to my UK buds like funky lol.)

Now - reach down, while your left foot is up, and do the same with your right foot.

Repeat until you have a pleasant altitude - say, up to the ceiling.

You can't do it.

Here's my point.

We can explain Android with an equation. Good news - the equation is as simple as 1+1+1=3.

Android = compact, real-time Linux (with services) + Dalvik Virtual Machine + apps that run inside the Dalvik (just like your desktop apps run inside Windows) and call upon Linux/services

(With Lollipop, replace Dalvik Virtual Machine with ART (Android Run Time) but why quibble, it's still 1+1+1=3. Let's call it all, the Pixie Dust. )

So if an app is running inside the Pixie Dust, and the Pixie Dust separates things, how much trouble is it to understand ram?

Actually - a whole lot.

If a feature phone or Windows phone is a minnow, and an iPhone is a great big carp, Android is a whale - just like desktop Linux, Windows, or OS X.

Apps trying to decode system ram are trying to pick up their own two feet. They tell a good story.

Here's my HTC multitasking button telling me I have about 300 MB free -

1421894476109.jpg


Here's the HTC replacement for the Android task manager telling me the same thing, with details -

1421894545189.jpg


Notice that they artificially changed the working memory to 2 GB to shut up the whiners who think they got robbed on memory.

Notice that UC Browser is taking some MBs of my memory. I haven't launched that for two reboots now and neither has Android. It's a really a few dozen bytes, cached.

If Android were a feature phone, or one of the other smartphone operating systems, those pictures would be the actual truth. The whole truth. And nothing but the truth.

And they are the truth in Android.

But they're not the whole truth. They're just the Truth According To The Pixie Dust.

The whole truth cannot be seen easily.

Here's just one tiny glimpse of just SOME the rest of the truth - here are the SIMPLE ram parameters that Linux is actually dealing with, managing, and controlling -

1421895164069.jpg


Snake oil has a sales pitch - the first two pictures are all there is to it and if you're smart, you'll manage it with snake oil assistance.

Nothing but the truth is this -

Android already has a task manager, Android already has a task killer, and Android already has a memory manager.

Android deals with the whole truth.

Snake oil farts around with the Pixie Dust and lies about it. Snake oil can manage ram and tasks in much the same way that you can pick up your feet and fly.

Am I done now? :D :D
 
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Lol - @AppleUser this is your 3rd thread on the subject this month.

The first one where you claimed that this garbage was wonderful, no one answered you.

The second one, For Mulder gave you a lot of good advice, including to stop using this stuff, and you replied that it did a lot of good.

Unless you read some of this thread, you're going to continue to believe the lies you've been sold by these apps.

My friend, no one cares about how many people on the Internet agree with you.

You've been taken. You've been had. You've been lied to. You've been conned.

Prove me wrong.

You're using apps that do not kill processes or clean ram.

Explain why they do so much good - but do not use the lying apps to explain why.

Tell me why you believe that those apps were running and killed. Tell me why you believe that your ram was cleaned.

Tell me how it improved your phone.

Without using any of the cleaners to do it.
 
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Regardless of the reasons, i myself prefer to have full control over which apps run and which don't. that's just my preference. If i simply 'let Android do it' i end up with launcher redraws (ten seconds of waiting for widgets and icons to repopulate after you hit the home button) or apps closing that i prefer to remain open, services i never use spawning and chewing through data, etc.

Keep in mind i'm not running a task killer. i do, however, either disable unnecessary apps/services (no root needed) or adjust minfree values or disable the OOM killer built into Android (root needed, and on a higher spec device such as the Note 3) so all the apps i use can be open and minimized so they instantly and smoothly transition over and out and makes nicer multitasking.

I HATE, and will not tolerate, my launcher having to redraw, apps i want to remain open being closed by Android to fit a service i'll never use into memory, etc.
 
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You'll find that my posts do support proper debloating when necessary and have a link to an OOM adjustment discussion and tool for that.

You're still letting Android handle it, Nick, but you're doing it properly and on your own terms for use. :)

Nothing wrong with that, it's the philosophy of slim, high performance roms.

For more details on that, we can make a similar thread in the hacking forum.
 
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