Rooting possibility with 2.1? Why? Why not?


Last Updated:

  1. carlz28

    carlz28 Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2009
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    24
    This thread will probably be best answered by devs who have the full knowledge of how our phones' internal 'stuff' works. But anyone with a decent idea/answer is welcomed to enlighten us.

    With all the excitement about the 2.1 update and rooting the Droid and using custom ROMs, overclocking..etc..what exactly is it that allows a person to perform such actions? I've read on this site and a few other places that Motorola will be 'locking' the ability to root our phones with the 2.1 update.

    One of Motorola's support pages has a posting from some lady that stated just because the OS is open source, does not mean that the devices have to be open to user configuration beyond what the manufacturer has available for us. She went on to say that when a certain business decision is made to allow for such access, it will be made based on certain factors...blah blah blah.

    I can't find the link to that page anymore. It was posted on Facebook the other day, so forgive me for lack of a link to show what I'm talking about in above paragraph.

    I guess my real question is what do they do to the phones OS that blocks this ability to root?

    And of course, if they can lock it up, can't some devs just 'unlock' it again?
    I have minimal to no knowledge of Linux and the ability to create/modify system files on these phones so I am leary about unrooting my phone to see what the 2.1 update will encompass. Yet I want to, just to see how well it works and what it offers.

    Any ideas guys and gals?
     

    Advertisement
  2. johnlgalt

    johnlgalt Antidisestablishmentarian VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,416
    Likes Received:
    1,919
    The current 2.0.x was rooted based upon a 'security hole', if you will, that was exploited to give the reverse engineers a shot at establishing root access. From what has been said, though, this security hole is closed in the 2.1 update, meaning that if you have not already been granted root access to your phone, there is the very likelihood that after a 2.1 upgrade you'll have to wait for those engineers to find another way to get root access.

    I realize that this may be an over simplification, but that is the gist of it.

    Also, IIRC, even rooted phones that get the OTA update may lose root access as well, hence why you either have the option to disable OTA updates and / or get a ROM with it pre-disabled.
     
  3. carlz28

    carlz28 Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2009
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    24
    Thanks for the response.
    I kinda figured it was a 'security hole' as you mentioned. This just reassures the idea.
    It was interesting to read the info. on Moto's site about letting this ability to be accessible to users in the first place. At least that's how I interpreted it. Almost like them saying "Hey, we know you can mess around with it, and we will just look the other way if you do."
    Personally, I would have wished they would continue to allow this ability for the sole fact that devs. can do so much on their own and make things so much better (at least in my opinion).
    But I'm sure that if there's a will, there's a way to exploit it again. Albeit via a different method.

    Thanks again for the info. :)
     
  4. johnlgalt

    johnlgalt Antidisestablishmentarian VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,416
    Likes Received:
    1,919
    Whoa! I am not a dev, nor even (really) an intermediate, let alone expert, user. I was speaking more from a "This is what I think is the answer" perspective than from a "This is the answer". So, kick back and relax, and let a real dev come along and answer it for you.
     
  5. carlz28

    carlz28 Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2009
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    24
    Oh I didn't suggest you were a dev. Merely that what you DID say and what I've read (bit and pieces here and there) kinda fits the answer. It does make sense in the simplest form. Hopefully a dev can chime in here and add some technical info., if for nothing else, just a lesson in knowing what's going on when you add/change/delete certain files in the phone.
    I do appreciate you helping out though :)
     
  6. Fabolous

    Fabolous Superuser VIP Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,635
    Likes Received:
    2,126
    There's a reason root access isn't on by default. It's because with superuser permissions, you can modify every single file on the device.

    That's pretty much an invitation for uneducated users to brick their devices.

    Even experienced users can sometimes make mistakes that render their ROMs unbootable. Luckily, we have SPRecovery for that.

    So, taking into account the majority of smartphone users, it would make no sense to allow users root access. Also, the companies do not want to be liable for any damages you may make to your device this way, nor do they want to provide support.


    Oh, and as for 2.1, yeah it'll probably close the current hole, but it will only be a matter of time before a new one is found. I like to state the N1 as an example, as it was rooted before release, by someone who did not even have the device.
     
  7. 3devious

    3devious Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    1,362
    Likes Received:
    115
    Mr Galt always had a way of explaining things so that I can understand them (just like Momma.)
     
  8. carlz28

    carlz28 Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2009
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    24
    Hahaha. That made me laugh and smile at the same time. I love techno-geeks! Always finding ways to do the impossible lol.
     
  9. tsaunders

    tsaunders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    419
    Likes Received:
    25
    It pains me to bring iPhone into this thread, but here are my thoughts.

    It will probably be the same cat and mouse game that the Jailbreak developers play with Apple with every update. Apple closes the hole and then they find a way in.
     
  10. Fadelight

    Fadelight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,393
    Likes Received:
    95
    Here is a rather grossly oversimplified explanation.


    Think of your phone like the computer at the library. The default UI (user Interface) is like the program they have locked on the PC at the library. You already know they are using a Windows OS, but you'll never see it because you can't get out of the program.

    Root is like administrative privileges. Having root would be like being able to back out of that one single program and load other programs onto the PC or explore the operating system. Think of it like tiers. Tier 1 is your loader. Tier 2 is your operating system. tier 3 is your phone. By default you are locked into tier 3. Root access gives you access to ALL tiers.

    Finding a way to root the phone is nearly identical to how viruses work. It is essentially the exploitation of a part of the operating systems code which is broken or does not function as it was intended to.

    Google patching root is like Windows updates. Microsoft discovers bugs in their system which are the potential target for an attack by hackers, and they update the code so it is no longer broken.


    Here is an old analogy for anyone old enough to remember windows 3.0/3.1 and dos 6.0. Remember how to make boot disks? That is how my friends and I used to get into the Library computers. We made boot disks, tossed them into the drive and rebooted the PC. It would read the boot disk commands instead of reading the commands on the hard drive, and that would prevent it from loading and locking the default program on that computer.

    Root is the same basic idea.


    Hope that helps you a bit in your understanding. Basically, it doesn't really matter if they patch the exploit that was used to root 2.0. There will always be bugs/glitches/anomalies in their system which can be used to gain root again. It is just a matter of finding them.
     
    slick_old likes this.
  11. tsaunders

    tsaunders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    419
    Likes Received:
    25
    @FadeLight

    At school I used to startup the computers and then hit F8 (I think that was it), and then tell it not to load the program that locked the computer down - :p

    Then I would have full access to everything.
     
  12. Fadelight

    Fadelight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,393
    Likes Received:
    95

    That came at a much later date than the generation of PCs we had when I was young. Back when I was in school, the Apple PCs still required a 6.5" floppy to boot, and then you would change the disk to use whatever program you wanted after the PC had fully booted. (And nothing was stored on the HD. ALL programs required disks. )

    But thanks for making me feel old. :D Excuse me while I go clean my false teeth and get out of this weelchair.
     
  13. tsaunders

    tsaunders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2009
    Messages:
    419
    Likes Received:
    25
    I might be younger but I know about boot disks - :p

    Anyway back on topic. I hope they can root 2.1
     
  14. Needsdecaf

    Needsdecaf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2009
    Messages:
    1,005
    Likes Received:
    41
    When I was in school, there were no hard drives. And many computers still had 8" floppies. Or better yet, tapes.
    :eek:
     
  15. CRPercodani

    CRPercodani OFWGKTA VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2009
    Messages:
    2,940
    Likes Received:
    564
    Well when I was in school we didn't even have computers!
     
  16. droidpcguru

    droidpcguru Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2009
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    19
    I remember plenty of the floppy disk and tape days..I started in 1979 on an Atari 400- at age 6.. I also remember wanting a 1 megabyte harddrive for my later Atari ST ..that was a HUGE deal back then.. Not to mention piggy-back soldering chips for more RAM.. those were the fun days..
     
  17. Fadelight

    Fadelight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,393
    Likes Received:
    95

    You win. I was born in 81'. :D
     
  18. johnlgalt

    johnlgalt Antidisestablishmentarian VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,416
    Likes Received:
    1,919
    That is an excellent analogy to us for folks who know of these things but haven't had a chance to use those skills in a very very long time....

    {On a side note - Bart's PE attempts to use the same maneuver to reverse damage caused by modern malware - boot into a non-infected environment, clean the infected one, reboot back into original environment....}

    No F8 bypass when there was no GUI to begin with....

    You feel old? lmfao....read below....

    If it is digital, it can be cracked. There is no perfect digital system - but the benefits of the digital transfers around the world as well as instant access, as opposed to hunting down paper, have made the obvious security issues with digital communication and data storage be downplayed over and over again. However, I said it once and I'll say it again - nothing digital is 100% secured - it can always be cracked.

    With that in mind, fear not, young padawan - 2.1 will be rooted, as will future generations of the OS.

    Punch cards, N E 1?

    We didn't have access to many when I was a kid....I personally did b/c my best friend's father was an EE on a local AFB base, and tinkered with stuff all the time a home - my first intro to a computer was watching him play a 1D (huh?) game that I am now reminded of whenever I see Neth@cker mentioned anywhere...LARN? or was that the DOS remake of the original that was named something else? Anyhoo, 2 of those machines were Sinclairs, and one was a Heathkit - and this was mid to late 70s, IIRC.

    • Replacing CPU Cache by replacing ICs on the mothboard using the IC removal tool
    • Seeing my first 10 MB Hard Card at Radio Shack as a kid
    • being the second person in my pretty large city (100K people, it's an AF town) to have a 14.4 baud modem (and waiting for 3 months for Gateway to ship it after we bought the 486/SX-25 system from them b/c they were on backorder b/c they were selling faster than they could get them)
    • Building a Cyrix 486-DX2/80 machine with a whopping 64 MB of RAM (in '94, 64 MB was unheard of for desktops)
    • Repeating history by building a machine in 2002 that comprised of the P4 2.0(A) GHz (Northwood) CPU and mating that with 1 GB of RAM (2 x 512 MB) to run XP (funny, never really had major problems with that - Oh, right, it was b/c I gave it the amount of RAM it really needed to run from jump street)....

    Ahh, memories....

    Oh, about to repeat history again - I already have the Core i7 965 EE, an after I get my eVGA CX58 Classified 4 way SLI mobo, gonna pair it with a minimum of 12 GB of RAM (and try to jump straight to 24 GB) and then rest on my laurels for several years again....

    Born in 1971, my first owned computerwas a TI-99/4A (fortunately, one of the cartridges I got with it was a BASIC cartridge, and I learned programming at the tender age of 8? 9? (it's all a friggin blur now), followed by a Tandy 1000 EX (upgraded to 640K RAM, dual 5.25" 360K floppies - I was cooking with gas by then!).

    But My experience belies my age, as I got a late start into computing....
     
  19. Fadelight

    Fadelight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,393
    Likes Received:
    95

    Woot, that was my first computer!! I found these instructions that I spent two hours following on programming, just so I could make this stick figure and animate him so he would dance around.

    And then you couldn't even save your work. :mad:

    My second PC was a 286 with a Monochrome (orange/black) monitor. The first introduction into real PC gaming for me. First 3D game? Morraffs world. Muahaha. By the time Doom I came out, that game had such intense graphics that I would literally be trembling from fear while playing it. Now I just laugh when I see it.

    My how fun flies when you're doing time. Growing up kind of sucks.
     
  20. droidpcguru

    droidpcguru Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2009
    Messages:
    506
    Likes Received:
    19
    Your story about the stick man reminded me of something.. A program called "Bounce" on the Vic-20..

    Kinda funny looking back at it.. My mother was griping about how the bank bounced one of her checks..so I took that program and placed a check mark in it..bouncing all over off the sides of the screen:p.. can you say Grounded? LOL

    My programming skills started with Atari basic, then onto the TI-99 4A, then to the Vic-20 and Commodore 64.. I then learned all the DOS commands, and later went on to learning the Command Prompt in windows(minor hacking). I've never really gotten into any hardcore programming though. Most of my field was modding my machines for more space/performance/.etc.--something that I still seem to be into to this day:rolleyes:
     
  21. IOWA

    IOWA Mr. Logic Pants Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2009
    Messages:
    8,852
    Likes Received:
    2,367
    keep in mind that any computer system in existence can be hacked, so rooting is a definate possibility or all os updates. keep in mind someone needs to figure it out.
     
  22. johnlgalt

    johnlgalt Antidisestablishmentarian VIP Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2009
    Messages:
    9,416
    Likes Received:
    1,919
    Amen. My current machine has a pair of GTX 260s in SLI on a Core2Quad CPU-based machine that is OC'd to 3.2 GHz, with 4 GB of OCZ Reaper HyperX ram running at 1000 MHz....and I am already planning to move to a Core i7 965 EE, 12 / 24 GB of RAM and possibly a pair of GTX 295s....

    Games want power - so power I'll give lol...

    I tend to have gaps in my computer experience - get one and use it for more than just a couple of years, then upgrade in a flurry, then sit on my laurels, etc....

    This time is the first that I am panning a major upgrade within 2 years of building.

    Exactly.
     
  23. Fadelight

    Fadelight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,393
    Likes Received:
    95
    GTX 295s are pretty close to being bumped from the top.

    My current system is an AMD Phenom II 720 2.8ghz tri core OC'd to 3.95ghz with 4gb of ddr2 1066 memory. (I don't know any games currently that can make good use of more than 4gb, and there are many negatives to running more than 4gb, so I'll stay here for a while), and 2 GTX 260s SLI overclocked to 900mhz.

    I've been eyeballing quad cores for a bit now, too... but again, Current game architecture is designed for dual core processors, so until the next generation of games starts coming out, Tri Core is plenty.
     
  24. Fabolous

    Fabolous Superuser VIP Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,635
    Likes Received:
    2,126
    Heh, I like how this thread turned into a PC thread. But I'll have to agree with Fade, I don't see any reason to upgrade right now. Maybe when the 6 or 8 cores come out.

    For now, I'm content with my Ph. II 940 BE @ 3.8GHz and Crossfire 4850's :D
     
  25. carlz28

    carlz28 Well-Known Member This Topic's Starter

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2009
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    24
    +1
    :rolleyes:
     

Share This Page

Loading...