Sold Phone on ebay, seller claims custom software. Help needed

[Phoneuser9890]

Almost 5 weeks ago I sold my Galaxy S3 LTE on ebay.

After 5 days of having the phone, I received a message to say the phone was running custom software and this stopped the person using Android/Kies. That is how they worded it. Also it had no warranty. I hadn't implied it had warranty.

The phone is on EE and has EE software installed but I know 100% the phone was not modified in any other way as I don't have an interest or clue how to modify the software.

They kept going on about Kies not working but wouldn't explain what issues this was causing them. Weeks later they said they couldn't transfer files.

Weeks later the ebay case was escalated and ebay have instructed the buyer to return the phone for a full refund. I've not got it back yet.

Looking at the case they have added a photo to show the phone has modified software.

The phone has a custom binary download count of 1 and software is custom when on download mode.

I have the picture they have posted, but as a new member it doesn't allow me to post pictures or links.

Please explain to me, in non technical terms, what that really means?

From Googling, I'm assuming the buyer has tried to install custom software, probably to remove the EE software, something has gone wrong and now they can't get Kies to work and the phone is now not working?

Is there anything I can do to prove when the software was installed?

Before selling on ebay I did take pictures of the IMEI numbers and recorded the phone loading up. I had carried out a factory reset so all information was removed.

Thanks in advance for your help. Very much appreciated.

 

[Phoneuser9890]

Spoiler

There is the picture they posted.

 

[mrex]

Sorry cant help - i have no idea what is ee (carrier?)... but what comes to Kies - there are million of reason why it wont work, not a software you can trust at all. Hopefully you get help and remember not to return money before you have solved it. You have sold the phone, not Kies, and if they have problem with Kies, they should contact Samsung support to solve it.

 

[lunatic59]

Hello and welcome to Android Forums, Phoneuser9890.

I fixed the image link for you and put it behind a "hide" tag because the image is rather large.

As for determining when the "knox" fuse was tripped, i haven't been able to find anything. As far as I know, its either an open or closed circuit with no log file.

Assuming you are correct in that the phone was completely stock when you sold it and the image shown is really the same phone, then you could be right, that the buyer tried to root it or install custom firmware and is now trying to pin it on you. Unfortunately, I don't know of a way to prove it one way or another.

Now, there have been reports of the knox circuit being tripped by an official update, but it's sketchy at best and once tripped the phone will display exactly as shown, even if it still has the stock firmware installed. As for Kies, it's always been a flaky suite of utilities and there could be many reasons why he can't connect. Of course custom firmware would be one of them.

The imei number and boot *might* identify the phone and show it was running a version of the stock firmware, but that could also be that the phone was rooted and stock firmware was flashed after a failed custom firmware flash. The only way to *prove* it was in stock condition at the time of sale was to boot into recovery, show that the knox counter wasn't tripped and then letting it fully boot to display the imei.

As far as eBay's dispute resolution, it seems they tend to favor the buyer in these matters, so I really don't know what your options would be or whether it's worth it to fight. If you do get the phone back and it has been modified, we could probably help you get it into running condition to sell to someone else.

 

[Phoneuser9890]

EE is a network provider in The UK. They install some software on the phone for EE services and the default internet homepage is EE.

I've yet to receive the phone back from the seller. Ebay's decision to return for a refund was made last week and phone is yet to come back.

I'll need to decide what to do after that.

The last thing I want it is to be stuck with a useless phone that was worth a reasonable sum of money, neither do I want to sell on a problematic phone to someone else. Even more so when I'm sure it has been the buyer that has made the mistake with the phone.

 

[BRAINZ2013]

Watch out sometimes they say they return you lose they keep the device and you out money and device . keep up with eBay and PayPal to keep the money . but u can't test it unless you have the proper sims card .but from the photo it looks like rooting didn't go good and they don't have a clue on how to read or to fix the problem. If I was you inform eBay and PayPal you talked to Samsung and they informed you that the buyer has tried to modify the device .

 

[mrex]

Sorry for asking... But if Ebay is returning the fund, who is going to pay it? I cant believe that Ebay can do such a desicion and ask the seller to return money...

 

[lunatic59]

Is the phone EE branded? In the US, handsets sold through the carrier sport the logo of that carrier and are considered stock even though the firmware is custom to the carrier. If EE takes a stock handset and flashes their own modified firmware, it could have been easily tripped when you bought it. Then the warranty would have been through EE, not Samsung.

In any case, if the phone will boot to fastboot or download, we can get you setup with the stock Samsung Firmware. It's not that hard (although a little unsettling the first time you do it.

 

[Phoneuser9890]

Sorry for asking... But if Ebay is returning the fund, who is going to pay it? I cant believe that Ebay can do such a desicion and ask the seller to return money...

The money is currently frozen in my paypal account. I had actually already spend the money for the phone, so my paypal balance is actually a minus value at the moment.

I will need to settle that debt as paypal can affect your credit score and that is the last thing I want to do.

 

[BRAINZ2013]

But you need to find out if buyer has anything to do with remember we can't see the imei number in that photo and I hope you kept a copy of the one you sold a picture show that it is a problem but is that the phone you sold them. hmmmmm

That's why I said watch out with eBay some people wake up thinking bad when others wake up with smiles wanting to do the world correct .

 

[Phoneuser9890]

Is the phone EE branded? In the US, handsets sold through the carrier sport the logo of that carrier and are considered stock even though the firmware is custom to the carrier. If EE takes a stock handset and flashes their own modified firmware, it could have been easily tripped when you bought it. Then the warranty would have been through EE, not Samsung.

In any case, if the phone will boot to fastboot or download, we can get you setup with the stock Samsung Firmware. It's not that hard (although a little unsettling the first time you do it.

It must be just some minor changes to the firmware.

I've now got the Galaxy S5,also from EE, and when checking this phone it shows up as Samsung official software even though it still has the same carrier parts running.

 

[mrex]

The money is currently frozen in my paypal account. I had actually already spend the money for the phone, so my paypal balance is actually a minus value at the moment.

I will need to settle that debt as paypal can affect your credit score and that is the last thing I want to do.

Really? What a system! So Ebay can make any decision without knowing and asking any explanation from the seller... Sounds like it is the best to stay far away from Ebay. It is (was) hard to believe that Ebay really can do anything when there is business issue in a private selling. I would understand it in the situation when the other side is a business.

 

[freakshow85]

I had a b.s. problem like this selling a motherboard for a laptop years ago. I didn't have a warranty set for the board because of the nature of electronics. People break shit. Well, a little over two months later the buyer went through ebay to get their money back. I missed the whole week that I had my chance to share my side of the story because it had been so long and I hadn't though to check my email to see if anything was going on. By the time I found out... ebay had sided with the buyer and charged my PayPal account for the amount I sold it for.

I was outraged but it was too late. I never paid my PayPal balance off. That was around 8 years ago. I haven't sold anything on ebay since. It is too risky because of how they side with the buyer.

Have you got to dispute your side of the story, yet? Or is it too late like it was for me?

 

[Phoneuser9890]

But you need to find out if buyer has anything to do with remember we can't see the imei number in that photo and I hope you kept a copy of the one you sold a picture show that it is a problem but is that th7e phone you sold them. hmmmmm

That's why I said watch out with eBay some people wake up thinking bad when others wake up with smiles wanting to do the world correct .

I took good pictures of the phone before I sold it.

It still had the original box so I did take pictures of the numbers on the box, plus IMEI under the battery and water detection sticker.

I also recorded a video of starting the phone up and switching it off again.

Do you think the phone is going to come back without switching on at all?

If it didn't, I'd have a video to prove it loaded on the day I sent it.

Reading other people's experiences on ebay, it seems they always heavily favour the buyer.

I've been on ebay for a few years and have history of selling higher value personal electrical stuff. I've sold my old phones, TVs, PC equipment and never had an issue before.

The person who bought it has 15 trades and comes from the most crime riddled area in the UK. Bradford is awash with fraudsters.

 

[Phoneuser9890]

I had a b.s. problem like this selling a motherboard for a laptop years ago. I didn't have a warranty set for the board because of the nature of electronics. People break shit. Well, a little over two months later the buyer went through ebay to get their money back. I missed the whole week that I had my chance to share my side of the story because it had been so long and I hadn't though to check my email to see if anything was going on. By the time I found out... ebay had sided with the seller and charged my PayPal account for the amount I sold it for.

I was outraged but it was too late. I never paid my PayPal balance off. That was around 8 years ago. I haven't sold anything on ebay since. It is too risky because of how they side with the seller.

Have you got to dispute your side of the story, yet? Or is it too late like it was for me?

The seller didn't respond to me for 10-11 days and I assumed they had fixed their problem.

I phoned ebay to lift the money frozen in my account and they refused. I explained the situation but they weren't interested saying they would ask the seller to send the phone back for a refund. If the buyer did escalate the case.

Nothing happened for a while then the seller did escalate the case.

Ebay read the messages me and the buyer and sent to each other during the dispute process, then ruled the phone was to be returned and I would be forced to refund.

 

[John Bean]

It's (usually) a very fair system offering protection to both buyer and seller with ebay (pr paypal in my case) acting as the independent arbiter.

The only time I had to claim (as a buyer) the decision went my way and Paypal refunded me immediately, presumably claiming it back from the seller.

I've never had the misfortune of having a claim made against me although I doubt I'd ever sell a phone on ebay for fear of this sort of thing - even though I have 100% positive feedback over a decade of ebay use.

I'm sure ebay weigh up the truth (or otherwise) of each side's claims partly on past history, so new users are likely to come off worse in "his word against mine" situations like this.

 

[mrex]

I would demand Ebay to give an explanation why they favor the buyer:

1. The buyer had the phone 5 days before he contacted you. So the phone was working 5 days. Shouldnt the buyer need to check stuff he bought during the first day?? It sounds odd that you can play days with the thing and after that demands money back.

2. They didnt take any contact during 10-11 days either. Did they contac Ebay? Did Ebay contacted you?

I would make sure to Ebay that you need this information if you are going to go to the police (although you wouldnt), but they probably would then take your side more seriously.

For me it sounds like you dont have any rights - althought i dont know the whole story, only the story i have read here, but i dont think any criminal would come here to ask help like this.

 

[BRAINZ2013]

Just have the power on proof and that they had the device for 5-days or more and eBay may decline

 

[mrex]

Well, a little over two months later the buyer went through ebay to get their money back.

So.. the seller really has no rights. Like i said before, what a system! Thank you for sharing this, now I know to stay away.

 

[John Bean]

You missed the part where he also added "I hadn't though to check my email to see if anything was going on".

If he didn't respond to the query from ebay for whatever reason they really had no choice but to find in favour of the buyer.

 

[mrex]

You missed the part where he also added "I hadn't though to check my email to see if anything was going on".

If he didn't respond to the query from ebay for whatever reason they really had no choice but to find in favour of the buyer.

No, i didnt miss... the thing i dont understand is this one:

"Well, a little OVER TWO MONTHS LATER the buyer went through ebay to get their money back."

Over two months later you can still demand your money. Wtf!? That is not even possible in a normal purchase , unless the item was already broken when leaving from the factory. And even then, the item goes back and the company makes a decision if the item was broken or was it a customer who broke the item.

 

[John Bean]

I wasn't referring to you but to the same post you just quoted.

The thing about ebay complaints is that if the seller doesn't respond at all - as happened in that case - then he loses by default. There is a time limit to open a "case" after which you don't get that option, so presumably the buyer had done this within the allowed time and the seller had failed to respond so the result was inevitable.

Edit: I checked Ebay's policy on this and two months may have been a bit of "poetic licence" to make some point since the actual limit is 30 days:

Opening a case when an item doesn’t match the listing description:
A buyer must open a case no later than 30 days after the actual (or latest estimated) delivery date.

from http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/money-back-guarantee.html

Not at all the same as your case.

Were you a new(ish) ebay user by any chance? Did the buyer have a good feedback record (perhaps better than yours)? These things get taken into account when adjudicating in the absence of hard evidence.

 

[Phoneuser9890]

I wasn't referring to you but to the same post you just quoted.

The thing about ebay complaints is that if the seller doesn't respond at all - as happened in that case - then he loses by default. There is a time limit to open a "case" after which you don't get that option, so presumably the buyer had done this within the allowed time and the seller had failed to respond so the result was inevitable.

Edit: I checked Ebay's policy on this and two months may have been a bit of "poetic licence" to make some point since the actual limit is 30 days:


from eBay Money Back Guarantee

Not at all the same as your case.

Were you a new(ish) ebay user by any chance? Did the buyer have a good feedback record (perhaps better than yours)? These things get taken into account when adjudicating in the absence of hard evidence.

The person escalated the case to ebay after not responding to me. They asked ebay to decide, and they chose to let the buyer send it back for a refund.

I've been on ebay for 8 years with 172 positive feedback votes. The phone buyer gave me negative.

The phone buyer has been on ebay for 2.5 years and has 15 positive feedback votes. Nothing for selling though.

 

[mrex]

Edit: I checked Ebay's policy on this and two months may have been a bit of "poetic licence" to make some point since the actual limit is 30 days: from http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/money-back-guarantee.html

Well, we dont know how ebay worked 8 years ago... but now, after reading the link above, it surely is just for marketing and getting more users. After reading the policy and surfing around net reading cases about refundings, im all on my side when I said "a seller have no rights", BUT you need to remember that Ebay or Paypal isnt a court. I wonder do they even have any rights to touch your money either.

A good example
http://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Selling-on-eBay/private-sellers-rights/qaq-p/1058749

And this is only making you sad (if you are a seller):
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/Selling-on-eBay/PayPal-s-Seller-Protection-Policy/td-p/205206


It is hard to believe that Ebay or Paypal can made a decision to demand a seller to return the money back in PRIVATE business, because Ebay or Paypal isnt a court and they cant make such a decision. I think only thing they can do it is only a suggestion. But i dont know how the law works in uk.

Found a similar post about law (read the whos comment):
https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120219110011AALyYjV


From Ebay:
" Appeals

From 17 february 2014, buyers and sellers have an opportunity within 30 days from the day a case is closed to appeal our decision by providing appropriate documentation through the Resolution Centre. We have the right to seek reimbursement from the seller if a buyer successfully appeals."

Just write a good appeal. Use your 8 years reputation, pics you have taken and emails you got from the buyer. Use Google as an example ( http://www.google.fi/#q=kies+not+working+) to show that Kies is bad software and everybody has problem to get it work, and you didnt sell Kies but the phone and the phone doesnt need Kies to work. And if the buyer has connected the phone to a computer (as the buyer had done when using Kies) the buyer might have damage the phone somehow and you wont be responsible for the action the buyer has done with the phone and the computer. I definitely would add a question why the buyer was using download mode which are use to flash a custom rom for example (the pic the buyer posted to you).

It is abit confusing, that the buyer dont get Kies to work, but the buyer know how to use download mode. Why is the buyer interested in download mode, if not flashing it?
http://www.phonebuff.com/2012/05/boot-download-mode-for-android/

 

[freakshow85]

No, i didnt miss... the thing i dont understand is this one:

"Well, a little OVER TWO MONTHS LATER the buyer went through ebay to get their money back."

Over two months later you can still demand your money. Wtf!? That is not even possible in a normal purchase , unless the item was already broken when leaving from the factory. And even then, the item goes back and the company makes a decision if the item was broken or was it a customer who broke the item.

Yeah it sounds made up but it happened six to eight weeks after it arrived at his address and he said he didn't open it and install it until then. It was 8 years ago and maybe they think about what they are doing a little more, now, but this thread doesn't inspire confidence in me for them.