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Someone explain, how the Republican party is still alive...

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  1. nlsme

    nlsme Well-Known Member

  2. Well that is a good question but the easiest answer is simply the republican party is really more of a general name then a specific entity. In reality people vote based on belief system not fact system. There are roughly 6 belief parties in the united states. 1.) socially conservative, financially conservative. 2.) socially liberal, financially conservative. 3.) socially conservative, financially liberal. 4.) socially liberal, financially liberal. 5.) Anti government conservative. 6.) anti government liberal. Now those belief parties randomly assign themselves to the democrat republican parties depending on who they are running against. For example. If you have a socially conservative, financially conservative person running as a republican, the democrat could easily be a socially liberal/conservative, financially liberal/conservative. But wants the party position more then the other guy. To answer the question, because of beliefs. People believe that one candidate suits them better then another. Those beliefs set themselves into a two party system, because of money.
  3. nlsme

    nlsme Well-Known Member

    I understand that there are social diferances as well as financial differances. However, beings as to how it is money that makes the world go round, wouldn't it be in the best interest of 99% of America to vote anything BUT republican?
  4. OutofDate1980

    OutofDate1980 Well-Known Member

    The Democratic/Republican parties are marketing tools for the Chamber of Commerce and its constituent members. Tell a selected market segment what it wants to hear, but do the bidding of those that determine what the market segment wants to hear.
  5. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra= VIP Member

    < flipping through old copy of das Kapital acquired at hippy store in '68 >

    By golly you're right.. says so right here on page (pick a page, pick any page). ;) :D
  6. OutofDate1980

    OutofDate1980 Well-Known Member

    The ideal is not copyrighted, so therefor in the public domain, free to be used by anyone with sufficient resources to implement.
  7. noah way

    noah way Well-Known Member

    Someone explain, how the Republican party is still alive...


    • lots of corporate "donations"
    • corporate ownership of mass media
    • gerrymandering and election fraud

    That pretty much covers it. Except of course for the stupidity of people who vote against their own self-interest.
  8. nlsme

    nlsme Well-Known Member

    But, the media always leans left!!!!!!! /S
  9. persim

    persim Well-Known Member

    You just described the Democrat party as well.

    The question shouldn't be "how is the republican party still around" but why do we still cater to a 2 party system? The ideals of all Americans can not be put into just 2 party's who are absolutely no different from one another.

    I'm pretty sure George Washington made a reference to the dangers of a 2 party system in his farewell address. We should probably listen to the man, he might have known a thing or two.
    Stinky Stinky likes this.
  10. nlsme

    nlsme Well-Known Member

    The question was posed directly towards the republican party because of their policies that favor the rich, while hurting the poor. Look at the current debt talks to see exactly what I am talking about. Now, look at the article, and see how outnumbered the super rich are. I can understande the top 1% of American's (in terms of wealth) favoring the Republican party. I just can't understand the bottom 99% even giving them the time of day.
  11. robertj298

    robertj298 Well-Known Member

    I believe the last part of your statement probably says it best.All the gullible people that believe the Spokesmen of the rich such as Limbaugh, Hannity and Beck speak the gospel
  12. persim

    persim Well-Known Member

    I can tell you I am certainly not in the 1% (in terms of wealth) you can only see supporting the Republican Party. But I don't like to be told what I should do with my money and the "spread the wealth around" philosophy favored by our current president and a good chunk of the Democratic Party makes me sick. Call me a terrible person but I don't give a crap about a drug addict on the streets of Seattle and certainly don't want my hard earned dollars going to programs for that person.

    If I so choose to help people out anywhere, I will do so by giving donations to programs I see fit. Being forced to do so by way of taxes from our government is not something I support. A lot of candidates are forced to choose between the 2 party system we have in order to get elected even though they don't agree with all their ideals. So I have absolutely no problem electing a Republican or Democrat that favors my ideals.

    We are all supposed to be treated equally in this country but why am I forced to pay a greater percentage of tax than a person making minimum wage? My reward for becoming a more productive member of society is to pay a greater percentage of my wages to the government. Seems like the worst incentive policy I have ever heard.
    Strings and Stinky Stinky like this.
  13. nlsme

    nlsme Well-Known Member

    The top 1% receive more of your money than the drug addict. You pay a FAR higher percentage than the 1%. Read the article.
  14. persim

    persim Well-Known Member

    I did read it and many many others that have claimed this statistic. It's impossible to get around paying a payroll tax(unless you pull the classic CEO move and take a $1 salary with all those excellent stock options). Depending on your income this will range anywhere from 0-45%.

    Whether you then manipulate the tax code with an obscene amount of deductions or credits is a totally different story all together. This could all be remedied by eliminating the IRS and having a simple code that taxes everyone at the same rate with no chance of deductions or credits.

    Would you be happy then when everyone would be treated equally and paying the same percentage of their income?
  15. nlsme

    nlsme Well-Known Member

    "And the rate of increase is even higher for the very richest of the rich: the top 400 income earners in the United States. The average income of the top 400 doubled during the first seven years of the Bush Administration. So by 2007, the top 400 averaged $344.8 million per person, up 31% from an average of $263.3 million just one year earlier.How are these huge gains possible for the top 400? It's due to cuts in the tax rates on capital gains and dividends, which were down to a mere 15% in 2007 thanks to the tax cuts proposed by the Bush Administration and passed by Congress in 2003. Since almost 75% of the income for the top 400 comes from capital gains and dividends, it's not hard to see why tax cuts on income sources available to only a tiny percent of Americans mattered greatly for the high-earning few.Overall, the effective tax rate on high incomes fell by 6% in the Bush era, so the top 400 had a tax rate of 20% or less in 2007, far lower than the marginal tax rate of 35% that the highest income earners (over $372,650) supposedly pay."

    Considering 75% of their income is not "payroll", it isn't that hard to get around.
  16. persim

    persim Well-Known Member

    Your point is what? Effective tax rate is just a net of all your tax rates. Everyone in this country has the opportunity to invest and have income from those investments, whether its 75% of your total income or 25% of your total income. That income is then taxed at a specific rate that is different from a payroll tax.

    Just because 75% of their income happens to come from investments doesn't mean they are paying any less percentage (yes capital gains were lowered so that part of their income was paying less tax but so were everyone elses). They are paying exactly the rate that anyone who invested would pay on that income.

    You can not compare effective tax rate to marginal tax rate as this article and many articles like it try to do. A person making 75k who had 75% of his income from investments and 25% from salary would pay a smaller effective tax rate than a person making 75k from salary only. But since they are both deemed middle class no one would argue that this person should pay his "fair share". Why are wealthy people treated differently just because they are wealthy?
    Stinky Stinky likes this.
  17. nlsme

    nlsme Well-Known Member

    Why are wealthy people treated differantly just because they are wealthy? Maybe a republican can answer this, as they are the ones that pass tax laws that overwelmingly favor them. Why should someones investments be taxed at half the rate as someones labor? Let me make a little hypothetical.

    Two people, one rich, the other poor. The rich man employs the poor guys at a rate of $15/hr. The rich guy collects $30/hr for the work the poor guy does. After wages, the rich guy makes $15/hr off of the work the poor guy actually performs. Now, Uncle sam tells the poor guy he now owes $4/hr from his wages. He then tells the rich guy that he only owes $2/hr off the profit he makes from the poor mans labor. How is that fair?
  18. Steven58

    Steven58 Reformed PH VIP Member

    <--------- Registered Republican. :D
  19. noah way

    noah way Well-Known Member

    To a lesser extent, yes. Both Democrats and Republicans serve their corporate masters.

    Progressive tax means the rate rises for each tax bracket. Taxes on the first 8,500 is 10%, from 8,500 to 34,500 is 15%, from 34,500 to 83,600 is 25%, etc.

    So the guy on minimum wage is paying the exact same tax as you are on that level of income.

    Payroll tax is capped at $106,800 of income. Someone making that amount pays 6.2% (and their employer pays another 6.2%). Someone making double that amount ($213,600) only pays 3.1% payroll tax.

    The more money you make (over $106k) the lower the percentage you pay. This is but one of many tax benefits the wealthy get.

    If they have money they do. The poor and middle classes don't have money to invest, so they do not have the opportunity to receive the tax benefits that investors get. This is a clear case of tax policy that rewards the rich.
  20. persim

    persim Well-Known Member

    I am sure most Democrats in congress take full advantage of these tax laws, I have never seen any one of them ask to give the money back because they thought it was unfair.

    This scenario is completely wrong. The rich guy is not an investor, he is an employer. He pays the employer part of the workers payroll taxes and pays for taxes on his earned income.

    I never said wealthy people are paying more on the lower income.

    That is why I said you can not compare effective to marginal tax. Marginal=Progressive

    Payroll taxes maybe capped at 106k but income tax sure isn't. This small benefit does not make up for the outrageous income taxes the wealthy pay, anywhere from 35%-50% depending on who controls the government.

    As I said in a prior post I am in favor of a simplified tax system where everybody would be charged 18-22% on all income no matter what their type of income.

    This is completely untrue, I have been investing since I was 16 with a minimum wage job, when I was paying my way through college and up until today. Everybody has the opportunity to invest, whether they choose to or not is a completely different matter.
  21. nlsme

    nlsme Well-Known Member

    Semantics. A rich guy invests in a company. Said company has an employee that makes $15/hr. The return on the rich guys investment is $15 for every hour the poor guy works. The poor guy pays $2.5/hr in taxes, the "investor" pays $1.25 for every $15 return on his investment. How is this fair?

    How is it completely untrue that the rich have far more to invest with? The top 20% of Americans hold 80% of the nations wealth. The top .6% hold over 50%. The bottom 80% only hold 20% of the nations wealth. It is pretty clear that the capital gains tax benefits the wealthy in an extremely lopsided manner. Considering that is where most of their money comes from, investment (not payroll), why even discuss margianal tax rates on the rich at all. That is not what their tax burden comes from, by and large.
  22. persim

    persim Well-Known Member

    The situation is completely different. At some point in time said rich guy had income that was taxed at the proper income/payroll rate like everyone else. He then uses this money that has already been taxed to invest in a company. He makes money on this investment and pays the proper tax rate for investment income.

    These our the rules of our current system. Whether it is fair or not is a different debate but every person in America has the ability to do what this rich guy has done with his money. As I stated above, I favor a flat tax on all income of 18-22% for everyone with no loopholes, deductions, credits nor exceptions. This is completely fair to me because everyone is treated equally.

    This is our current tax code. I didn't write it and I don't agree with it. But you and many others appear to upset with wealthy people just because they are wealthy. They follow the same rules as everyone else regarding marginal income tax and investment income tax. Money doesn't appear out of thin air. At some point in time money was made and was taxed at the marginal rate. They then invested that money and pay taxes on that as well.

    Do capital gains tax decreases help people with money invested? Sure they do but they help everyone who has investments. Myself and my entire family(all middle class by the way)received tax decreases when the capital gains tax was lowered. As stated before everyone has the opportunity to invest. You appear to be upset because these people have invested their money wisely.
  23. nlsme

    nlsme Well-Known Member

    I get it, the top 400 ALL had jobs at Mcdonalds.... Not one of them did. You say you would be willing to have a flat tax of 18-22%, yet, say that I dislike the rich? BTW, the effective tax rate (what they actually pay) is below 18%. I don't hate the rich, I hate that they pay to have tax laws enacted that direclty benefit them. Yes, anyboidy can invest. Not everyone can invest where 75% of their income comes from returns on those investments. In fact, MOST Americans live paycheck to paycheck, and cannot invest. Most Americans could not come up with $2,000 to cover an unexpected emergency. I don't hate the rich, I hate that I pay a FAR HIGHER percentage of MY earnings in taxes than they do.
  24. noah way

    noah way Well-Known Member

  25. Stinky Stinky

    Stinky Stinky Well-Known Member

    Well said my friend.

    I completely agree with you.

    I live in one the most socialist countries and it is on the borderline of becoming communist. There are a lot of problems in my country because of socialism and cultural issues.

    SA the biggest welfare state in the world, says economist - Business - Mail & Guardian Online

    We are one of the most dangerous places in the world to live in because of socialism and cultural issues:

    Top 10 Most Dangerous Places on Earth

    You see, I have lived my whole life in a socialist / semi - communist country and our country is a real serious screw up and pathetic hell holl.

    Socialism doesn't work and neither does communism. It has been proven during the Cold War and in other places too.

    I am completely aware of the dangers of a socialist and communist system becuase I have lived my whole life in a socialist system and believe socialism is flat out dangerous.

    And yes I agree with you, you shouldn't spread the wealth around, or have welfare it is dangerous.

    That is basically like communism.

    It is against human rights to have welfare, you are correct. I tried to explain this to other people but they did not understand me sadly.

    And I also agree with you that you should not have to help someone out of their problems that you did not creat in the 1st place. It is forcing you to pay for someone elses problems. We did not creat their problems in life but some how we must pay for for their problems with welfare?

    It is very wrong to be forced to do that.

    Anywayz never mind that.

    Wow that is so true!

    I agree with you 120%.

    You should get rewarded for your hard work and not the other way round, which is what you have said there.

    You are 120% correct again.

    People should get rewarded for doing well in life and not the other way round.

    You are right.

    Seriously well said.

    P.S. I might sound like a heartless person but you have to look after yourself and not bear the burden of every body else's problems / issues in life because that is not fair to take on others problems. You have to look after your self sad but true.

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