Speculation: The GPS issue is a hardware problem

[JHannaman82]

LOL, I love how everyone is suddenly an expert on these forums with years of experience. People talking about how they are software engineers for 20 yrs, or hardware, other people in the GPS forums talk about being GPS experts, and everyone is writing long explanations about the GPS problem and whats exactly wrong with it. Truth is maybe 1 percent of the people here even knew how GPS worked before this fiasco. If everyones an expert then why hasn't someone on these forums found a fix.

Truth is everyones talking outa their brown eye, none of you know for certain if its hardware or software.

I vote software though, but i'm starting to lean towards hardware. Actually its a mixture of both problems, software and hardware. I mean, after all, I'm a ceo of a company that makes GPS software, so I think I would know.

LOL, you know, some people here actually ARE software engineers with decades of experience, and full time hardware/software analyst who have diagnosed VERY similar issues on countless other devices. And none of them have anything to proove to anyone else.

This thread was started to seek the opinion of others. Some are more qualified to answer this question than others.

The reason GPS cannot be fixed by a dev is very simple. And anyone qualified to answer this question with confidince knows why. Sometimes I forget I'm not on XDA over here...

 

[SamsungVibrant]

LOL, you know, some people here actually ARE software engineers with decades of experience, and full time hardware/software analyst who have diagnosed VERY similar issues on countless other devices. And none of them have anything to proove to anyone else.

Thats exactly why I left 1 percent room in my argument for experts like you with decades of experience. You obviously fall in that 1 percent category. So everything else doesn't apply to you. I and others thank you for your expertise in advance.

You are a valuable resource to the rest of us. Just out of curiousity, you said some people here are hardware/software analysts who have diagnosed VERY similar issues on countless other devices. Just curious, can you name 5 out of the countless other devices with VERY similar issues. Would be great to know which countless devices have had VERY similar problems, it would be great to read about it and educate myself more on the topic. Thanks... if you can just reply with at least 5 out of the countless device names that would be great!

 

[gunny5821]

I just exchanged my captivate today for a new one.
My new phone picks up gps signal instantly and i have used it several times today.
Before i would get a 1500+ ft. radius if anything at all; new phone is easily within 10 feet.

Can you share with us the DOB of your two phones? Can be foun on the Samsung registration page which will pop up under the serial number once you input it.. May be helpful!

Gunny

 

[JHannaman82]

Thats exactly why I left 1 percent room in my argument for experts like you with decades of experience. You obviously fall in that 1 percent category. So everything else doesn't apply to you. I and others thank you for your expertise in advance.

You are a valuable resource to the rest of us. Just out of curiousity, you said some people here are hardware/software analysts who have diagnosed VERY similar issues on countless other devices. Just curious, can you name 5 out of the countless other devices with VERY similar issues. Would be great to know which countless devices have had VERY similar problems, it would be great to read about it and educate myself more on the topic. Thanks... if you can just reply with at least 5 out of the countless device names that would be great!

Where did I say in my post that I had decades of experience?

If 5 is the 'magical' number for the night. Here they are.

5 other devices released by a carrier with non functional GPS that were fixed with either a GPS chip firmware update, or an OS/hardware driver update:

HTC Raphael (Touch Pro I/Fuze): driver/firmware update
HTC Rhodium (Touch Pro II/Tilt II): driver/firmware update
Apple Iphone with 2.1 firmware: firmware update
HTC Diamond: firmware update
HTC Hero: firmware update

These were all very poplular topics at the time the issues existed on these devices.
If you want, I can go into detail about the BCM 4751, the long awaited GPS chip found on the SGS. This GPS issue is not new. Its been know about months before the SGS even made it over to the USA.

 

[SamsungVibrant]

These were all very poplular topics at the time the issues existed on these devices.
If you want, I can go into detail about the BCM 4751, the long awaited GPS chip found on the SGS. This GPS issue is not new. Its been know about months before the SGS even made it over to the USA.

Please tell me about that chipset and the GPS problem that was known prior to USA release.

 

[JHannaman82]

Please tell me about that chipset and the GPS problem that was known prior to USA release.

The BCM 4751 was announced by Broadcom in Feb of this year at MWC. It is a 65nm chip that Broadcom claimed to be more effective at picking up weak sat signals, while using less power.

Here is the official press release by Broadcom in PDF format: http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/BRCM/0x0x349640/f4d71332-7225-4e62-8080-37be5c44d228/out.html

The samsung galaxy S I9000, which was announced by Samsung in March 2010, was the first device I know of to utilize the BCM 4751.

The problem itself, is nothing new. Its the exact same issue you guys are experiencing with the SGS variants in the US.

The I9000 was initially launched in Singapore on June 4, 2010.

As soon as the I9000 hit the market, the same reports of GPS issues began to come in. The issue was know then, as it is known now. When there is a fix for the I9000, there will also be a fix for the Epic, Captivate, Fascinate, and Vibrant. I am confident that there will be a fix, but it has to either come from Broadcom, or Samsung. This is because no one has access to the firmware or SOC design except for the manufacturer themselves.

 

[DT]

Outstanding posts by JHannaman82!

When I posted earlier that I don't believe it's hardware, I'm making the distinction between the chip level implementation (being the 'hardware') and the support firmware. In my mind the architecture is like so:

[sat]

antennae
chip
firmware
OS (drivers)
application layer

The OS/app layers are just "soft" instrumentation reporting back from the firmware.

 

[chicknlil]

Had anyone noticed this tweet before?

 

[Android_J]

The samsung galaxy S I9000, which was announced by Samsung in March 2010, was the first device I know of to utilize the BCM 4751.

Very interesting. I did a little digging and it seems the phone was available for demo and previewed on tech sites in March as well. This extends the timeline out to 5+ months that Samsung (and possibly Broadcom) should have known about the GPS issue.

Are any other phones slated to come out with the 4751 chip (from any manufacturer)? It would be interesting to compare performance. I know the iPhone has the older 4750 chip and that thing practically locks on instantly.

 

[skinien]

LOL, I love how everyone is suddenly an expert on these forums with years of experience. People talking about how they are software engineers for 20 yrs, or hardware, other people in the GPS forums talk about being GPS experts, and everyone is writing long explanations about the GPS problem and whats exactly wrong with it. Truth is maybe 1 percent of the people here even knew how GPS worked before this fiasco. If everyones an expert then why hasn't someone on these forums found a fix.

Truth is everyones talking outa their brown eye, none of you know for certain if its hardware or software.

I vote software though, but i'm starting to lean towards hardware. Actually its a mixture of both problems, software and hardware. I mean, after all, I'm a ceo of a company that makes GPS software, so I think I would know.

If you're serious about being a CEO, no one believes you.

 

[jfogs1]

Some people are reporting that their GPS is working, while some are saying it's failing. We know the software on all the Captivates is the same, but it's conceivable that some units came from batches that had hardware defects.

Therefore, a hardware defect, or at best variance, is more likely to be the cause.

This could mean one of two things: Either the problem is not fixable as a result of it being a hardware issue, or it's fixable if the said hardware issue could be compensated for somehow by special treatment from the software.

It's not likely that there's software variability.

THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE!

I just got off the phone with Joel in Level 3 technical support and he actually told me with a straight face that the Samsung Galaxy S was designed and its "specifications" are such that the phone's GPS is meant to get you within WAIT FOR IT ..... 1600 METERS OF YOUR ACTUAL LOCATION!!!!! THAT'S RIGHT 1 MILE! If you haven't already returned this phone DO IT NOW. I am stuck with this POS!

 

[skinien]

THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE!

I just got off the phone with Joel in Level 3 technical support and he actually told me with a straight face that the Samsung Galaxy S was designed and its "specifications" are such that the phone's GPS is meant to get you within WAIT FOR IT ..... 1600 METERS OF YOUR ACTUAL LOCATION!!!!! THAT'S RIGHT 1 MILE! If you haven't already returned this phone DO IT NOW. I am stuck with this POS!

Damn! Well, they have 7 days or my options are to go back to an iPhone 4 or leave att and go with Verizon. The other Android phones on att just don't do it for me.

 

[MarcMaiden]

Damn! Well, they have 7 days or my options are to go back to an iPhone 4 or leave att and go with Verizon. The other Android phones on att just don't do it for me.

in your situation, id go to verizon,

being an AT&T employee and Verizon/AT&T user, I'd stay with android, and move to verizon and go for the droid inc or the droid X. The biggest thing you lose is that amazing graphics gpu, and for me, thats one of the big things that makes me want to keep the captivate.

I never liked iphones, I have been using Android phones since the original moto droid (which my dad uses and loves)

 

[PurePursuit]

Go to verizon, if you're going to be paying champagne prices might as well get the best network available. This samsung phone has so much damn potential, sucks about these big bugs.

 

[skinien]

Thanks for the input guys. I've been hearing of a Droid Pro coming out at the end of the year with a 1.3 GHz processor.... wowzers.

The only thing is that I need a phone now. Can't wait that long.

 

[Ph8]

THIS IS UNBELIEVABLE!

I just got off the phone with Joel in Level 3 technical support and he actually told me with a straight face that the Samsung Galaxy S was designed and its "specifications" are such that the phone's GPS is meant to get you within WAIT FOR IT ..... 1600 METERS OF YOUR ACTUAL LOCATION!!!!! THAT'S RIGHT 1 MILE! If you haven't already returned this phone DO IT NOW. I am stuck with this POS!

Just a heads up even if he is "level 3) hes still a CSR and there is no way to actually verify the information. CSRs are usually the last to know when a fix is coming out (theyll know when its released or when they're told it will be released). Ive seen people deal with supposed level 3 support and they had bascially the same info as Level 1.

Also you never said where Joel was a level 3 tech Samsung or ATT if it was ATT then how would he know what the entire line is supposed to be? I think someone might have been giving you bad info, call three times and youll most likely get 3 different answers.

BTW did this really need to be posted multiple times in different threads?

 

[DT]

I wish AT&T would just make a statement and extend the trial period out 60 days. That would quell the worries of a lot of early adopters and I suspect the return rate would dramatically drop. You know, assuming that's a reasonable window for Samsung/AT&T to implement a fix.

in your situation, id go to verizon,

being an AT&T employee and Verizon/AT&T user, I'd stay with android, and move to verizon and go for the droid inc or the droid X. The biggest thing you lose is that amazing graphics gpu, and for me, thats one of the big things that makes me want to keep the captivate.

I never liked iphones, I have been using Android phones since the original moto droid (which my dad uses and loves)

Yeah, while I'm still experiencing what appears to be a working GPS, I haven't done enough out in the wild testing (and nothing outside my small 5 mile radius operating circle). So I'm not 100% this phone is a keeper.

The problem is, I am not going Apple, so the only other choice to have a nice Android option is switching carriers. We've been with AT&T for like 7+ years, we've got several services bundled up for a discount on each and the wife has an iPhone so at this point she has to stay with AT&T.

Splitting up our service will cost more for my plan and hers (without the multi-phone discount) plus add some extra management/billing headaches.

Plus I'm only kind of so-so on the DX (I prefer the display tech and size of the SGS).

If the GPS gets sorted, I'm happy about everything else!

 

[thindery]

The problem itself, is nothing new. Its the exact same issue you guys are experiencing with the SGS variants in the US.

The I9000 was initially launched in Singapore on June 4, 2010.

As soon as the I9000 hit the market, the same reports of GPS issues began to come in. The issue was know then, as it is known now. When there is a fix for the I9000, there will also be a fix for the Epic, Captivate, Fascinate, and Vibrant. I am confident that there will be a fix, but it has to either come from Broadcom, or Samsung. This is because no one has access to the firmware or SOC design except for the manufacturer themselves.

Then the question remains... Why doesn't Samsung just say what is going on? If you are confident it is driver/software/firmware related then surely samsung has a 1up on you and knows damn sure what the issue is.

We just want to know what is going on and need an official statement from Samsung other than "we are looking into it." Looking into it my ass. They have known about the issue for months. If they don't know 2 months after the asian release what the problem is and if fixable, are they really ever going to know?

 

[Sledutah]

I wish AT&T would just make a statement and extend the trial period out 60 days. That would quell the worries of a lot of early adopters and I suspect the return rate would dramatically drop. You know, assuming that's a reasonable window for Samsung/AT&T to implement a fix.

They didn't extend it for the iP4 so I doubt they will for the Captivate. SJ was so pleased with the low return rate of the iP4 during his little tirade conference. I wish they would publish what it is now, after the 30 day period was up and a lot of people returned them because of apples lack of taking responsibility of putting out a POS.

 

[jfogs1]

I was actually on the phone for an hour with Samsung because they kept trying to pass off your typical run of the mill level 1 folks as level three. After haggling with them and getting hung up on three times I finally got to "Samsung's level 3 galaxy s support" at least according to the recording.

My issue here and the reason I posted it on several forums (dealing with this issue) is that I believe Samsung is changing their tune. The company line now is that "this is how it is supposed to work" when in fact it is not. He said other phones like iphone, etc are designed to get a better lock and that the SGS isn't designed that way. This is not a good sign in my mind. I think this is just posturing to keep from having to recall the phone IMHO.

 

[ranova]

I was actually on the phone for an hour with Samsung because they kept trying to pass off your typical run of the mill level 1 folks as level three. After haggling with them and getting hung up on three times I finally got to "Samsung's level 3 galaxy s support" at least according to the recording.

My issue here and the reason I posted it on several forums (dealing with this issue) is that I believe Samsung is changing their tune. The company line now is that "this is how it is supposed to work" when in fact it is not. He said other phones like iphone, etc are designed to get a better lock and that the SGS isn't designed that way. This is not a good sign in my mind. I think this is just posturing to keep from having to recall the phone IMHO.

I will guarantee that if you speak to a different "level 3 support," you will get a totally different answer.

 

[JDM9499]

I was looking forward to the Captivates release. My lame ass actually thought there could possibly be a waiting line for the phone (I live in Manhattan) so I got to the flagship store before they opened. Well, I was the only person around. I felt like a fool...I was the first, and from what they told me, the first person in NYC to get the phone. At this point, my face turned red, and I felt even more like a complete douche...

My phone has not experienced any GPS issues. Living in the concrete jungle, I get a lock within 10-15 seconds, consistently. And my accuracy is always, and I repeat, always within 10 meters. Generally, it's around 5 meters. I've tested the accuracy a few times to be sure with the "GPS Test" application. How accurate that is, I have no idea. I'm not a tech guru at all, so if there is a better app , please let me know.

I can testify that the GPS works better than my old 3Gs, and Navigon 1300. I am comparing this to the other units by how long it takes to lock. This Captivate locks faster. Accuracy is all about the same for me, here in NYC. Get's me from block to block, with superb accuracy (to the exact corner of any street or avenue).

Now, with all that said, Is it a hardware or software issue? I have no idea. I just thought I would share my own experiences with the Captivate GPS. If my GPS was not working properly, I probably would have returned it and gone back to Apple. But it works flawlessly, every time I use any application that requires GPS, and get's me to the front door of all the places I need to be. Literally.

For the sake of those experiencing GPS issues, I hope Samsung sends out a firmware update with a specific fix to the GPS problem.

 

[JDM9499]

I forgot to mention that my phone is stock. I never did any of the software fixes suggested on this forum, or any other forums. Nor is my phone rooted. Maybe I'm one of the lucky FEW that got a properly functioning device?

 

[BobPaul]

I forgot to mention that my phone is stock. I never did any of the software fixes suggested on this forum, or any other forums. Nor is my phone rooted. Maybe I'm one of the lucky FEW that got a properly functioning device?

Or maybe you are not actually using GPS but instead are being located via cell tower triangulation.

PS: I RESET my Captivate today using *2767*3855# and GPS is working for the moment. It worked the first day I had it so I am fully expecting it to stop any minute now.

 

[JDM9499]

Or maybe you are not actually using GPS but instead are being located via cell tower triangulation.

PS: I RESET my Captivate today using *2767*3855# and GPS is working for the moment. It worked the first day I had it so I am fully expecting it to stop any minute now.

I actually un-check "Use Wireless networks". Leaving it on gives me terrible accuracy here in the city. If I had to guess (the size of the blue accuracy circle in Google maps) I would venture to say within 100-300 meters. So I always turn it off when I am going to use navigation, Google maps, or any other app that needs to determine my location. I make sure to check "Use GPS satellites" or just switch on the GPS via the power control widget. But I always make sure the Wireless networks is off.