Tired of hearing what I need to do.


Last Updated: 2010-06-26 18:17:19
  1. Snow_Fox

    Snow_Fox Well-Known Member

    I'm sure many of you out there heard the millions of people recently explain to us "why" we needed to "save" a bunch of crap.

    When the auto industry failed hard,... we had to "bail them out" because "we needed them.

    When the banks failed "we needed to bail them out" and it was "for our own good"

    Obama gets in office, and nothing good has happened yet in terms of economics.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, I believe one thing in life perhaps more so than any other. I owe absolutely no one in the world anything, and conversely no one in the world owes me anything. The one exception to this is parents. I believe if you have a child, it is your responsibility to care for it, you owe your children because you brought them into existence and your parents owe you to care for you.

    I will say right now that, the current state of the economy is horribly out of line and it is not getting any better. I highly suggest that we all forget this idea that we owe people money. I have never made a contractual obligation with a poor person that they suddenly "deserve" my money just because I have it, and they do not. I have never made a contractual obligation with a rich person that I suddenly am owed money because I lack it and they have it.

    The only time you owe anyone anything is when you make a contractual obligation for goods or services in return for payment of some sort. I do not owe anyone without health care just because I have it and they do not. If we were to argue "haves" owe the "have nots" then on what principal are we arguing this?

    Are we to argue this on religious grounds? Do I owe the poor because a god says I do? Some moral philosophy deems that I owe people without? I am sorry there is not logical a philosophical reason I should give people what they do not have.

    Do not confuse what I am saying here. I am not speaking out against helping people. I am not saying that no one in the world should be helped when in need. However, I am saying that it is not the governments place to choose "who is worthy" and who is not. It is not the governments place to judge how much money should come from my paycheck and go to other entities.

    We have seen the last couple presidents continually "one up" each other. The presidency should not be a contest to spend the most money..

    If we are going to provide universal health care to all americans, why not universal higher education? after all it could be very easily argued college is a necessity in an educated country.

    We as a country can not afford to keep spending our money to save failing endeavors when we are really so far in debt there isn't an end to the tunnel or a light at the end.

    Spending is not the way to get out of debt. When you are trillions of dollars in debt.. you don't add another trillion to the deficit. Whoever, thought that Obama's stimulus idea was some great innovation and way to magically get out of debt is dreaming..

    This isn't just anti obama propaganda or the idea of some person blinded with hatred for a political figure.

    These are the rants of someone who makes minimum wage + comission, and would be up to 200+ ahead on bills some pay checks if it wasn't for taxes which when paid are going to frivilous endeavors.

    This rant was inspired by "what classes owe" which was written in 1883..

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  2. IOWA

    IOWA Mr. Logic Pants Moderator

    Agreed.
  3. hakr100

    hakr100 Well-Known Member

    If you are making "minimum wage + commission," then your rate of federal taxation most likely is very, very low. I won't take the trouble to post the benefits of our society that also benefit you, and are supported by taxation.
  4. Crude

    Crude Well-Known Member

    The last I checked I pay 22% of my paycheck to taxes. Another 5% in property taxes. More then 1/4 of my income goes right to state and federal
    taxes. That's too much, especially when you consider a lot of this is funding social programs that I do not agree with.
  5. hakr100

    hakr100 Well-Known Member

    I'm sure we all have lists of programs we don't like that are funded by tax dollars. But that's part of the price one pays to live in this country.

    You might want to look up the federal tax rates that were in effect in the 1950's, during the sane Republican era. :)
  6. Snow_Fox

    Snow_Fox Well-Known Member

    In louisiana you pay 9% on whatever you buy...

    I don't pay property tax because I don't own any. I am not sure what the exact amount that is taken from my check is..

    And hakr... I'm sorry but, a prerequisite of this country should not be saving failing businesses :/

    Sometimes I feel like the government itself amounts to a burden..
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  7. hakr100

    hakr100 Well-Known Member

    I think if you are whining about taxes, it is incumbent upon you to know what the exact amount is taken from your paycheck...and why.
  8. Vihzel

    Vihzel Destroying Balls Everyday VIP Member

    If I could choose where to put my taxes in, it would be under the Department of Education, Environmental Protection Agency, and NASA. Unfortunately, it is probably spent in the Department of Defense.
  9. IOWA

    IOWA Mr. Logic Pants Moderator

    I don't want to support failing business's either. Where's my bailout dammit? Where's the bailout for my family's small business? or other family businesses?
  10. Vihzel

    Vihzel Destroying Balls Everyday VIP Member

    Unfortunately, your family's small business isn't considered "vital" to the nation by the government. Same with my family's "relatively small" business. We just can't compare to a corporation like... Chase.
  11. IOWA

    IOWA Mr. Logic Pants Moderator

    Yeah lame. Between my family's income, and our business's taxes etc we pay well over 3 millions a year in taxes. That's a lot of money. I demand a bailout!
  12. 3devious

    3devious Well-Known Member

    I know how much is taken from my paycheck. I know the various programs that $10 (gross hyperbole) is supporting. I also see where some of that money has gone and it hasn't done anyone any good. I am not whining about my taxes, I am bitching. You can bet that the responsible(ha!) politician's office feels my pain for every bullshit expenditure they vote for.
  13. hakr100

    hakr100 Well-Known Member


    Well, I don't mind my tax dollars going to those who need help. I also did not mind the bucks going to GM and Chrysler, because I think the cash infusion pulled their butts out of the fire. Many thousands of decent jobs for working men and women may have been saved, and that is meaningful.

    But the Wall Street and insurance crowd? I have no compassion for those crooks.
  14. Snow_Fox

    Snow_Fox Well-Known Member


    @ hakr last time I did the math it came out to be something like 25% of what is taken out of my checks.. but, working comission I get a different amount taken out every week. It is not like I work a stable 40 hours a week job and can say "here is the amount".

    I actually hated that GM and Chrystler were bailed out :/.

    I don't buy GM cars and probably won't in the future, there is a reason there business was failing just like wallstreets.

    For every honest good job that was saved at GM, there were probably just as many legit wallstreet jobs saved.

    That still doesn't mean I believe they should be bailed out. Where was my bail out when I was laid off? When my company said "we can't afford to keep you on" and hired someone 2 dollars cheaper an hour less than a week later :/.

    If GM can't sell cars.. why should they be kept alive? They got billions of dollars which I fail to see how they earned.

    As to wall street, I am beginning to believe golden parashute's should be a reference to urine when you screw up as badly as some of those people have :/
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  15. IOWA

    IOWA Mr. Logic Pants Moderator

    And when large business's topple, that's when smaller business's thrive. If there is little demand, how can we afford to cash infuse which only solves athe problem short term. What's happens when the demand goes down again?
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  16. Crude

    Crude Well-Known Member

    Why not look it up? The US gov's budget is public information.
  17. Snow_Fox

    Snow_Fox Well-Known Member

    very true about the little businesses thriving, It is a shame that as much as people want you to believe conservatives are in the pocket of big business..

    The truth is ultimately ALL politicians are in big businesses pockets.. the more we solve "short term" problems the more "long term" problems we create... Like how are we going to pay off saving those big businesses..

    Sure a lot of qualified people would have lost their jobs if the business went down but, so what? A lot of qualified people lose their jobs on a daily basis as it is anyway... I got laid off myself a little over 6 months ago. I found a new job. never mind the fact that the business that laid me off, fired 21 other people and probably still gets rid of people sporadically doesn't DESERVE to be in business.. and hired someone new for 2$ less an hour not even a week later.

    this business couldn't give raises to the employee's it had.. but, it could spend what one manager claimed was "4,000$" hiring new employee's and training them. never mind the fact that one time of more than 20 people interviewed (they trained people all at one time in groups) no one got hired.. after the mention of a drug test they all just stop showing up.

    Sure they weren't bailed out by the gov't but, they blatantly abused power and they absolutely fail at managing their business in the location I worked. If they represent the entire company (I worked there for a year and will never go back to the store itself) then they are going to fail hard sooner or later, and I will pray they are not bailed out.

    We don't "owe" companies like that anything. I am still burned up from watching the news one day "new camaro is selling fast! the profits are rising signifigantly!" was one article... the next news piece they did was "They are going to recieve X more bailout money!" I'm not the brightest.. but, i thought the company was "doing better now"..

    If anything I would say these institutions owe US. If the bank failed, they owe their customers the money they lost! The FDIC should skip giving the banks anything and just give the customers that lost money what they are owed...

    Let 4 or 5 new banks take their place... then we can get some competition and lower interest rates!
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  18. TheBeardedMann

    TheBeardedMann Well-Known Member

    "Failure is simply the opportunity to begin again, this time more intelligently."

    --Henry Ford (Ford didn't receive any bailout money)
  19. brab

    brab Guest

    And if we had not bailed out Wall Street and there had been a world wide recession that led to 25% unemployment and none of you could pay your bills or put food on the table, who would you have blamed then?

    The one thing that burns me up about the Wall Street bailouts in particular is that they infused these firms with money with no strings. So after the infusion and they were back on their feet, the incredible bonuses to the people that managed the firms to the brink, continued.

    The biggest mistake that the government has made is to allow these banks to become too big to fail. But that is the free market, right?

    And finally, we must institute regulation of Wall Street for there is no such thing as the free market.
  20. Snow_Fox

    Snow_Fox Well-Known Member

    Feel free to explain this at any point in time. Its a great statement but, I don't see anything to back this. I thought we already were in a world wide recession :/


    Back on their feet? you mean blowing tax payer money to give raises to the people who screwed up in the first place?
    No one is too big to fail, however if you listen to them.. you may begin to believe it. I say let them fail and let someone else take their place! Small businesses thrive when big businesses can't cope.

    The only thing I would like to see regulated are golden parachutes..

    Lets face it.. I don't want to get into a slippery slope fallacy when I try to reason this out.. but, I think declaring regulations are definitely a slippery slope altogether.

    *Edit*

    Although if the government had gone loan shark on the banks.. I think it would have been justified.
  21. brab

    brab Guest

    All the world economists believed if AIG had collapsed, it would have led to a world wide depression. Now you can argue that was a lie but the first TARP package was put in place by W's treasury secretary.

    No, not if you believe the world economy would have collapsed though I do believe the people who we bailed out caused it.

    If these large institutions had collapsed, there would have been no capital available for small business to utilize.

    I guess we don't need to regulate the oil industry then, or the airlines or emissions from factory stacks, etc.

    As I said, they should not have loaned the money with no strings attached. By the way, the banks and corporations we bailed out do have to pay some interest.
  22. IOWA

    IOWA Mr. Logic Pants Moderator

    If these institutions would have failed, others would step up to take their place. Instead of 4 or 5 mega companies, we'd have more smaller banks able to compete.

    Tapatalk. Samsung Moment. Yep.
  23. zauper

    zauper Well-Known Member

    The "bailout" for your "small business" takes the form of tax incentives and credits in the ACA.

    As well as the numerous other provisions of the tax code that currently exist to incentivize and make small businesses competitive.

    IOWA: If all the large banks had failed, the small banks wouldn't have had the capital to step up and take their place -- that's the problem with letting the banks fail.

    All:
    If you don't like the tax rates, or you don't like the programs your money is being spent on, you have two options:
    1) Petition, campaign, etc, to reduce taxes / change the programs it's spent on. (amusingly, this would have the consequence of increasing the deficit, which you identify as a problem).
    2) Move to another country.

    Do I agree with most of what tax money is spent on? No, there's a ton of waste in the system. But if you really think it's possible for them to repeal Medicare, or Social Security, you don't know what you're talking about.
  24. brab

    brab Guest

    Zauper
    They can't repeal medicaire, meidcaid or social security but they have to reform them. Even if they cut discretionary spending to 0000.00, we liberals must understand that the entitlements have to be cut. Be that means testing or raising once again the retirement age and it's time they considered some variation of privitazation.

    The entitlements will be cut/modified it is only a matter of time.
  25. Zenze

    Zenze Well-Known Member

    I would like to see us get rid of both of them honestly. But I don't think either party would do it as the elderly vote more than anyone else and they would be very unhappy.

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