Verizon says Contact HTC, HTC Blames Google, Google... *crickets*General


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  1. NefariousAryq

    NefariousAryq Guest This Topic's Starter

    Alright, I'm annoyed. This issue with certain apps disappearing from the Market after each maintenance release/update is just silly. I contacted Verizon, and they push me off to HTC. I contact HTC, and first they blame the app developers, then after giving them more information they blame Google. Of course, you cant really contact anyone directly at Google, so its *crickets*.

    Look, I don't care who's to blame for this, I just want it to be fixed. One of these three parties needs to stand up and say Ok we're on this until its fixed -- and then see to it that it gets fixed. This "blame game" is ridiculous.

    All I know is, I've paid for apps that I no longer have the ability to re-download on my phone after a factory reset after the latest MR update. And I'm clearly not the only one, there are multiple posts here about it, and there are multiple posts about it on the Market forums over at the Google "help" center (I say "help" in quotes because its SO not helpful).

    I said this before in another thread, but its worth saying again. Google/Android simply CAN NOT compete against the iPhone when ******ed issues like this keep coming up. Google and the phone manufacturers have GOT to have better communication if they want to compete. I love Android, and I love my HTC Eris... but this is ridiculous.

    *grumpy kitteh is grumpy*
     

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  2. MOS95B

    MOS95B Well-Known Member

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    It is up to the App developer to decide oif their app is on the market or not.

    Android is Linux. linux does not work like Windows. It's not just "Throw it out there, and it's out there forever". Even people who run Linux on their computers have to get applications through a Marketplace-like system. If whoever is running that market no longer has permission to offer an app, or decides the app violates thier terms of service (or whatever), it's gone.

    HOWEVER... If you really liked/wanted a particular app, there are other sources for obtaining software, other than official channels. I won't go into details here, but a persaon could do a google search (not google mobile, real "on my computer" Google) and probably figure it out....

    PS, having workrd in software ditribution in the past, I know that purchasing a piece of software does not guarantee you'll always have access to it, no matter what platform it is written for. If you pay for a download, and plan to keep it, back it up!!!
     
  3. nekoki

    nekoki Well-Known Member

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    The issue here is that Google whitelists phones (ie non-rooted and non-developer) that can d/l copy-protected apps from the market. An itty-bitty change to the phone (ie OTA MR2) has screwed those of us who had to had reset the phone after the OTA. I didnt even lose access to a paid app (just my favorite free app) and I am still pissed. And the fact that no one wants to man up and fix it is a PITA. Its not like it was not known that the OTA was going to happen.
     
  4. kennyidaho

    kennyidaho Well-Known Member

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    Well here is a basic explanation of what's happening: When you get your MR update (and this is for any Android device) the signature of the device changes. Essentially the Market recognizes it as something else. For example it might have been Eris ROM 1.2 now it's Eris ROM 1.3.

    So what happens is HTC needs to submit these new ROM signatures to Google and then Google needs to update the market to recognize these new signatures. Typically it's been said that this process takes a week or two. How accurate that is who knows should it be faster - well yes - the system sucks and needs improvement. However HTC, Google, and Verizon are not who you should be contacting to fix this. Say what?

    This whole system pretty much only applies to applications that the developers have chosen to use the copy protection on. So basically the developer of the application has decided that he does not want people to take his application and use it with out paying - seems fair enough right. However it's not fair to you the user who paid for the application already is it. All the developer needs to do is log into his or her account and disable copy protection - then magically it appears back on the market for your device! It's a click of a button and it's not permanent. The developer can add it back on later if they choose to.

    A lot of developers refuse to do this. I understand their desire not to have users pirate there work. However the users who would pirate their work are typically users who would NOT have paid for the application in the first place. That's why these numbers you see about lost sales because of piracy are all crap. You can't lose a sale that you would have never made in the first place right? For years I used Windows - but I always used pirated versions of it - at one point I decided that to switch to Linux and stop playing the piracy game. Microsoft never lost me as a customer because I was never there customer to begin with; I was just someone who used their products. In fact there have been many applications that I have pirated but then eventually purchased because I deemed it was worth my money. The opposite has happened as well - I've pirated it only to find out that if I would have purchased it I would have wasted money.

    At this point you can see the developer cares more about the perception that he his protecting his pocket book apposed to supporting users who already have paid for his or her application. So I implore you to contact the developer through whatever means you can and urge them to at least temporary disable copy protection so that you can use the product YOU PURCHASED.
     
  5. kennyidaho

    kennyidaho Well-Known Member

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    I am sorry but that is incorrect. I am not required to use apt to get software on my debian system - it's nice and easy but it's not the only way. Most developers post their source code on their website - I could download it and compile it myself or download prepackaged / precompiled versions.
     
  6. NefariousAryq

    NefariousAryq Guest This Topic's Starter

    I don't think its fair to blame the app developers here. They are using a tool (copy protection) that is provided to them by the Android SDK. It is an option given to them, and some take advantage of it. That is their right.

    I understand *why* this happens, the 'real' issue here is that HTC and Google clearly don't want to 'work together' in a timely manner regarding this. HTC knows its going to push out an update, so they should submit the new signature of the release to Google *IN ADVANCE* of the release going out. Then, in addition to that, Google needs to work in a timely manner to publish that new signature to the Market so that when the update is released to phones there are no problems.

    That's all it would take. Some simple and timely communication between Google and HTC. But, no... That clearly isn't happening. And now, the users of the phone and the apps are caught in the middle of a pissing match between the two of them. And Verizon just throws up its hands and says "ehhh"!

    Frankly, the app developers should be as annoyed about this as us users should be. They are losing out as well. Some app developer needs to make a big stink about this, about the potential revenue loss because their apps disappear from the market for weeks after a phone gets a bugfix update... Maybe then the phone manufacturers and Google would actually pay attention?

    *grumble/shrugs*
     
  7. kennyidaho

    kennyidaho Well-Known Member

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    Really how certain are you that this is a pissing match? Because some call center employee told you to call someone else? Have you ever worked in a call center doing support? Those people are not trained on all the details of how a system works; chances are that they probably are not even employed by the company you called. They are not developers, engineers and most certainly not policy makers. Typically they are the LAST people to know anything - freaking customers a lot of times know a lot more then they do about new product releases and issues like this.

    They get a list of "best practices" and a script to read to you. You call them up talking about Android Market issues, and MR updates and missing applications - they probably don't have a single clue what the heck you are talking about. All they know that is their script and best practices advise them to send Market issues to Google. So they do their job and tell you to contact Google - not following procedure could end up getting them bad QA scores, reprimanded or terminated. BTW this doesn't mean they are dumb or unintelligent people.

    So please before you start talking about a pissing match between two companies..particularly between two companies that are practically sleeping together when it comes to Android and hardware...base your information a little bit off of something more then a call center agent telling you to contact someone else.

    Look I think the situation is crappy I went a couple weeks with out a few applications when the Hero was updated. However nobody knows who's to blame - maybe HTC hasn't submitted it yet, maybe it was submitted 3 weeks ago but Google has been slow. Maybe they are communicating just fine but the process takes a while because of testing reasons. Maybe there is a back log - nobody knows.

    You're right on one thing though - developers need to start making a fuss about this. So that's why I suggest you hound your developer. The more users they have complaining to them about how they can't get a product they already paid for the more they will notice that their use of copy protection is causing them to not gain new customers. At this point they can temporarily fix the issue for users by disabling copy protection on their application and start making a fuss to Google.

    iPhone developers have to deal with an even bigger headache. Their applications and updates sit pending for months while they wait for permission to be put on the market. Then they get denied for strange and random reasons; leaving the developer saying WTF. Applications getting pulled off the store because - well nobody knows. So if the iPhone App Store can pull off being successful with all it's problems then I am sure the Android Market will do just fine with a few applications disappearing when a ROM is updated.
     
  8. erisuser1

    erisuser1 Well-Known Member

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    Just curious - did this happen after an OTA update, or did you use the RUU update?

    I know other people have reported the same thing, but I'm under the impression - perhaps mistaken - that this has only happened to people that used the RUU... which way did your phone go to 1.17.605?

    eu1
     
  9. davbak

    davbak Well-Known Member

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    The point is, @kennyidaho, both VZW and HTC have been made aware of the situation. Multiple calls have been put into their tech. support departments, yet they have no way to DIRECTLY contact Google (who you say they are practically sleeping with...) about the issue. They also, apparently, have no way to escalate this issue within their own tech support infrastructure. This is not a good way to operate a support operation.

    At least with BlackBerrys, VZW can escalate the issue to RIM if the situation deems it necessary.
     
  10. NefariousAryq

    NefariousAryq Guest This Topic's Starter


    OTA. I'm keeping my phone strictly on the "up-and-up" while its under warranty ;)

    This happened after the last OTA update as well.
     
  11. NefariousAryq

    NefariousAryq Guest This Topic's Starter

    Yes, this is the point I was trying to make. My annoyance may have gotten in the way of me leaving a clear and succinct(sp?) message as I had intended. "pissing match" was not really the term I should have used, however I stand by my annoyance at HTC, Google and Verizon in all this.

    Thanks, davbak for backing up the point I was trying to make ;)
     
  12. kennyidaho

    kennyidaho Well-Known Member

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    Multiple calls to a support department that may not even be staffed by Verizon or HTC employees? Multiple calls to agents who refer you to Google or HTC or Verizon and then click a drop down box and try to fit your call into a list of predefined support categories. Then type a note that says:

    "Caller said apps not showing up in market - advised to contact HTC"

    Then BEEP it's the next call. It's not like they get off the phone with you and then start trying to contact engineers and developers. I can assure you that no tech support agent working in a call center has any way to contact anyone directly who can fix an issue like this.

    My whole point is it's not a tech support issue. It's not an error - it's just something that happens by the nature of how the system is designed. It needs to be changed and improved upon yes.
     
  13. erisuser1

    erisuser1 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply; I obviously was misinformed. Sort of makes me (more) nervous about fooling with my phone too much.

    I found this post on Google's "Android Market Help" site. Reading between the lines, it does look like this is Google's doings (search for the post by "Dontae" - he mentions making "changes" in Market specifically for Eris after the December OTA update).

    Don't know that this info helps you very much - but it does look like Google is the place to apply the pressure, even if there's no one to "answer the phone" there. :(


    eu1
     
  14. davbak

    davbak Well-Known Member

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    You seem hell-bent on defending a broken system, but I don't think anyone here is laying the blame on individual support reps at VZW or HTC. They're working within the parameters they're given and they're using the tools they're given. In fact, I would give high marks to the last VZW rep I worked with. She went so far as to verify the issue on a test device she had access to. She tried to locate a way to escalate it to Google, she consulted with HTC on a way to to escalate the issue.

    Where I do lay blame is on the system itself. As it sits today, VZW and HTC tech. support have no other option except to leave the end user to fend for themselves on the Google support forums. I do believe all of the VZW and HTC reps I've talked to on this issue have wanted to resolve it or at the very least offer me a better option for working towards a solution, but they couldn't because they had no better way to escalate it those who are responsible for making the necessary change.

    The bottom line is there should be a clear and accessible method for VZW or HTC to escalate issues that are dependent on Google, to Google.

    Also, this cop-out about the support call centers not being staffed by VZW or HTC employees is bull shit. Whether or not they are VZW/HTC employees is beside the point, they are there to provide support. Unfortunately, their hands are completely tied because there is no ability for them to push pertinent information to Google.
     
  15. blitersety

    blitersety Member

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    Seems to me the only way to get google's attention is to submit this complaint to theconsumerist.com. Since it is an issue that has happened to a lot of users, and there doesn't seem to be a clear cut way to report the problem to google, the next action would be to notify theconsumerist and hopefully get it posted on their homepage. Then the appropriate people will take notice. No company likes bad press.
     
  16. davbak

    davbak Well-Known Member

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    consumerist.com
     
  17. falk

    falk Active Member

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    Believe me, we are. I'm getting support emails about this.

    Every time I think that Google couldn't make the market any more painful than it already is, they prove me wrong. This is as bad as last month's autofocus ***********.
     
  18. davbak

    davbak Well-Known Member

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    The only thing I can of to do is for everyone to go to the Google Support forums to request a refund for the apps they no longer have access to. Obviously I don't think we will get a refund, but maybe this will create some awareness since none of the Android blogs are picking up on it.

    Here's a new thread I just started: Need a refund since I no longer have access to the apps I paid for - Android Market Help

    Post which apps you want a refund for in that thread and even the developers should post on there to describe their frustration.
     
  19. NefariousAryq

    NefariousAryq Guest This Topic's Starter


    Thank you, I am glad a developer chimed in. I have been trying to get some of the Android sites to cover this issue, but so far noone has... I've submitted news tips of this to Android and Me, Phandroid, Droiddog, BoyGenius... I figure if we could get SOME sort of "press" on the issue, it would push Google to move faster. Thats usually (unfortunately) what it takes.
     
  20. davbak

    davbak Well-Known Member

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    This appears to be fixed. The two apps that were missing from My Downloads are now there!
     
  21. NefariousAryq

    NefariousAryq Guest This Topic's Starter

    Yes, I am now able to see stuff this afternoon I was not able to see this morning, specifically Weatherbug Elite and MobisleNotes (but others as well).

    But, I suspect this is just yet another "temporary fix", and we'll be suffering this same BS after the next round of updates. And the next. It wont be 'fixed' until Google changes the Market or changes it procedures.
     
  22. kennyidaho

    kennyidaho Well-Known Member

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    I am glad the system got updated for you.

    I wasn't trying to defend a broken system - just saying that it's not really a tech support issue. Every single Android phone owner in the US, with Verizon, Sprint or T-Mobile and even in Europe all have to suffer through this when a ROM is updated.

    We don't know if it's Google's fault or HTC's. HTC could have submitted the ROM signature and it takes time for Google to update it. However it may only take a matter of seconds to update it but maybe Google is waiting on HTC.

    You posted a link to a google support thread and I personally think that's the best idea. Some blogs covering it is also a great good idea. Unfortunately I just don't think there is anything Verizon or any other carriers Tech Support departments can do about it.
     
  23. nekoki

    nekoki Well-Known Member

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    Same here. I have my apps back! Yeah! BUT fully expecting to have issues after the next update. But this time I will make sure to back them up before doing the update in case I have to do a reset again.
     
  24. aorbpro

    aorbpro Member

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    Interestingly, now that the PPA's (Previously Purchased Apps) are now available from Google Market, these same apps, that I had backed-up to the Eris SDcard, are ONLY NOW able to be installed !?!
     
  25. davbak

    davbak Well-Known Member

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    It's not a question of it being a tech support issue, it's a question of which of three company's tech support department should be working to actively resolve the issue or at the very least communicating back to the end user the status of the issue.

    Tech support is the first layer of customer service when an end user has an issue. They're the people we call when we have an issue with a device. If tech support can't resolve the issue on the spot, they should be able to escalate the issue to someone who can, even if that is a different department or even a different company.

    This current structure of HTC not being able to ping Google in an effort to resolve or even get a status update on this issue not functional.
     

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