Where Does Self Defense End? Killer of Robber Convicted of Murder

[nlsme]

In May of 2009, Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland was at work when two teenagers came in to rob his store. What happens is caught on the surveillance video below

1. Two teens burst into the store, one of them waving a gun.
2. Ersland shoots at them. The one with the gun runs out the door; the other is hit and falls.
3. Ersland exits the store in pursuit of the fleeing robber. Failing to catch him, he comes back into the store.
4. Ersland walks back behind the counter and retrieves a second gun.
5. Ersland walks back to where the fallen robber is, leans down, and shoots him multiple times, killing him.

Ersland was found guilty of first-degree murder. He faces life in prison. The case has divided public opinion along perfectly predictable lines. So we're just going to leave that set of facts right there, and you can all say what you think.

YouTube - ‪Raw Video: Pharmacist Kills Would-be Teen Robber‬‏

I would say that is a clear cut case of murder, what say you?

 

[TheGoatLantern]

Murder. Plain and simple. The kid was down. He didn't need to shoot him any more. Disgusting.

 

[nlsme]

I really dont see how one could argue against it being murder honestly.

 

[lordofthereef]

4. Ersland walks back behind the counter and retrieves a second gun.
5. Ersland walks back to where the fallen robber is, leans down, and shoots him multiple times, killing him.

Steps 4 and 5 is where Ersland messed up. The kid no longer showed a threat to his life, but he proceeded to execute him...

 

[olbriar]

A bit beyond protecting life and property... Murder

 

[cds0699]

Murder.

He chased the one that had the gun out the door, the wounded robber inside was not posing a danger to his life and Ersland should have phoned the police at that point and let them handle it.

 

[Vihzel]

It would definitely be murder. Shooting someone multiple times while they are down and not a major threat is not self defense. It was self defense when he first shot. He should've right after called the police.

 

[Abdur]

Its one thing to protect your property, its another thing to kill a man, this is murder. Like Lotr said, the last two steps made it murder.

 

[johnlgalt]

Thus far, everyone here is posting pretty much the same feeling. This guy had no reason to shoot the kid and especially when the kid is down.

I'm in the majority thus far - it's murder. I cannot believe that there are people out there that believe that this is friggin self-defense. What if it had been their kid that Ersland killed?

I cannot believe that this has people divided at all. Anyone not seeing this as murder (and premeditated at that, hence the 1st degree) is an idiot, in my book. And that really scares me that, in this day and age, there are people in the very same society that I live in that actually do see this as justifiable self-defense....

 

[Dark Jedi]

Sad to say its murder. You don't shoot a person execution style. We all make choices that are bad. The kid made his when he went with his friend to rob the place. Then the store clerk made his bad choice by walking in and finishing off the kid. Now the clerk has to live with his choice for the rest of his life.

It's amazing how fast the victim can tun in to the assailant during a crime.

 

[MJM128]

Murder. Plain and simple. The other disgusting thing about this is that the mother of the teen that was murdered seriously think's her son is a hero. All three of those involved in this case are anything but heroes.

 

[Dark Jedi]

Murder. Plain and simple. The other disgusting thing about this is that the mother of the teen that was murdered seriously think's her son is a hero. All three of those involved in this case are anything but heroes.

Of course she thinks her son is a hero. You think she wants to be known as the woman that had a common criminal as a son. All 3 people made bad choices that day and that kid and his friend got the ball rolling.

Now the woman will sue the store and the man for the murder of her son and will probably win her case.

 

[keatingschick]

Sad to say its murder. You don't shoot a person execution style. We all make choices that are bad. The kid made his when he went with his friend to rob the place. Then the store clerk made his bad choice by walking in and finishing off the kid. Now the clerk has to live with his choice for the rest of his life.

It's amazing how fast the victim can tun in to the assailant during a crime.

I started a reply to the thread last night and got waylayed but one comment I was going to make is that obviously the storekeeper would have been in shock and adrenaline would have been pumping and I suppose no1 knows how you would react in that situation so he has suddenly got this surge and reacted

BUT yeah totally agree it's murder. Self defence is where the other person poses a threat and you react to protect/defend yourself. The guy was shot on the floor and posed no further threat, like when people say that if someone broke into their house they'd beat them stupid, the thing is if you hit someone from behind it's automatically NOT going to be self defence and whether it's your house or not then you are going to be the one that gets charged.

The comment re the mum thinking her son is a hero and suing the store and getting away with it, I once remember reading on a forum re insurance claims etc and there was one where someone broke into a garage and got stuck in there while the houseowners were away for the weekend, all that was in the garage was a can of coke or something and he sued the house owners because of the affect on his health being stuck in there with nothing to eat or drink all weekend!!!

MADNESS!!!!!!

 

[ElasticNinja]

Its murder
I'd like to hear from those who disagree given there is a "split"
Mother is loony to think her son is the good guy

 

[A.Nonymous]

I too am interested in hearing someone make a case that it's not murder. I don't see that at all. Seems to be a very cut and dried case of first degree homicide.

 

[nlsme]

Looking at the comments on youtube, there are a few who beleive that it wasnt murder. I beleive more people would argue that it wasn't 1st degree murder. I wouldn't be one of those people though.

 

[A.Nonymous]

Looking at the comments on youtube, there are a few who beleive that it wasnt murder. I beleive more people would argue that it wasn't 1st degree murder. I wouldn't be one of those people though.

How would you make the argument that it wasn't murder?

 

[Member196159]

Looking at the comments on youtube, there are a few who beleive that it wasnt murder. I beleive more people would argue that it wasn't 1st degree murder. I wouldn't be one of those people though.

How would you make the argument that it wasn't murder?

YouTube is made up of seven year olds who think you can just press the re-spawn button, no?

Self defense if someone is robbing you? Yes.
Self defense if someone is not armed, is down on the floor? No.

I can't see any arguments how that can be considered self defense...

 

[A.Nonymous]

Just watched the video. It's a clear cut case of murder. There really can't be any question about it. For those who didn't watch the 1 min video and want a more detailed description than given earlier, here's what happened.

1. Woman is at the counter.
2. Two guys come into the store. One is pointing a gun. The other is not, but clearly is with the first guy and is seen pulling on a ski mask or something of the sort.
3. Woman runs away.
4. Guy takes up position in front of the counter pointing his gun at someone off camera.
5. The unarmed guy falls.
6. Other guy runs out of the store.
7. Store owner emerges from the back of the store with a gun in his hand and runs off after the guy who ran. Store owner is clearly still armed.
8. Store owner re-enters the store, steps over the guy on the floor and walks to the back of the store and off camera.
9. Store owner re-emerges a few seconds later, walks across the store to where the fallen gunman is, looks at him and shoots him several times.
10. Store owner walks back behind the counter and picks up the phone, presumably to call the cops.

Now, to be completely and totally fair you can't see what the fallen gunman is doing off camera. Is he completely disabled? Is he reaching for a gun in his backpack he's carrying? Is he still a threat in any way shape or form? It's possible I guess. Seems extremely unlikely. After the guy falls, you never see him on camera again. If you were on site, you'd clearly be able to tell if the guy was reaching for any sort of weapon. If he was, it's still a bit difficult to make a self-defense argument. The guy is wounded, on the ground and on the other side of a counter to boot.

 

[G.Armour]

Yep, murder. If the first shot had've killed the boy.. I am sure he would've came under some heat, but what he did was plain and simple murder.

 

[Bob Maxey]

In May of 2009, Oklahoma City pharmacist Jerome Ersland was at work when two teenagers came in to rob his store. What happens is caught on the surveillance video below

1. Two teens burst into the store, one of them waving a gun.
2. Ersland shoots at them. The one with the gun runs out the door; the other is hit and falls.
3. Ersland exits the store in pursuit of the fleeing robber. Failing to catch him, he comes back into the store.
4. Ersland walks back behind the counter and retrieves a second gun.
5. Ersland walks back to where the fallen robber is, leans down, and shoots him multiple times, killing him.

Ersland was found guilty of first-degree murder. He faces life in prison. The case has divided public opinion along perfectly predictable lines. So we're just going to leave that set of facts right there, and you can all say what you think.

YouTube - ‪Raw Video: Pharmacist Kills Would-be Teen Robber‬‏

I would say that is a clear cut case of murder, what say you?

I agree with the ruling. It is one thing to defend yourself, but in my opinion, after the immediate danger has passed, purposefully killing the robber is out of line.

Bob

 

[dan330]

Just watched the video. It's a clear cut case of murder. There really can't be any question about it. For those who didn't watch the 1 min video and want a more detailed description than given earlier, here's what happened.

1. Woman is at the counter.
2. Two guys come into the store. One is pointing a gun. The other is not, but clearly is with the first guy and is seen pulling on a ski mask or something of the sort.
3. Woman runs away.
4. Guy takes up position in front of the counter pointing his gun at someone off camera.
5. The unarmed guy falls.
6. Other guy runs out of the store.
7. Store owner emerges from the back of the store with a gun in his hand and runs off after the guy who ran. Store owner is clearly still armed.
8. Store owner re-enters the store, steps over the guy on the floor and walks to the back of the store and off camera.
9. Store owner re-emerges a few seconds later, walks across the store to where the fallen gunman is, looks at him and shoots him several times.
10. Store owner walks back behind the counter and picks up the phone, presumably to call the cops.

Now, to be completely and totally fair you can't see what the fallen gunman is doing off camera. Is he completely disabled? Is he reaching for a gun in his backpack he's carrying? Is he still a threat in any way shape or form? It's possible I guess. Seems extremely unlikely. After the guy falls, you never see him on camera again. If you were on site, you'd clearly be able to tell if the guy was reaching for any sort of weapon. If he was, it's still a bit difficult to make a self-defense argument. The guy is wounded, on the ground and on the other side of a counter to boot.

I agree it looks like murder...

but your point about .. not seeing or hearing what the down robber is doing/saying.

what if ... the robber was going off.. yelling.. I am going to kill you.. i will get out.. kill you.. rape your wife and daughter. I will get even for this. etc....

well... with my adrenaline pumping... and if he was saying that to me...
and knowing that he just try to rob me at gun point.. so he is capable of doing what he said....hhmmm......

 

[cds0699]

I agree it looks like murder...

but your point about .. not seeing or hearing what the down robber is doing/saying.

what if ... the robber was going off.. yelling.. I am going to kill you.. i will get out.. kill you.. rape your wife and daughter. I will get even for this. etc....

well... with my adrenaline pumping... and if he was saying that to me...
and knowing that he just try to rob me at gun point.. so he is capable of doing what he said....hhmmm......

Its still 0 reason to kill the robber. You can get police protection for yourself and family.

 

[dan330]

police will not stay out side my house and follow my family everywhere...

if a person wants to kill someone... it aint that hard.
the problem is getting away with it.

 

[G.Armour]

I can totally see what you're saying, if he were threatening my family as you said, yeah, I may have done the same.