tuller

Just received a text from VM about the General Terms & Conditions changes, as of 7/1/12...see item g...I don't know if it was stated like this before.

Our Right To Suspend Or Terminate Services

We can, without notice, suspend or terminate any Service at any time for any reason. For example, we can suspend or terminate any Service for the following: (a) failure to have or maintain an appropriate account balance for applicable charges; (b) harassing/threatening/abusing/offending our employees or agents; (c) providing false or inaccurate information; (d) interfering with our operations; (e) using/suspicion of using Services in any manner restricted by or inconsistent with the Agreement and Policies; (f) breaching, failing to follow, or abusing the Agreement or Policies; (g) modifying a Device from its manufacturer specifications (for example, rooting the device); or (h) if we believe the action protects our interests, any customer's interests, or our networks.

Virgin Mobile USA

benslgdroid

There attempting to prevent tethering is all as they have no way to check other than a spike in data usage. I do believe it's always been there though.

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tuller

Thanks, just never noticed that before!

melim

I tried to read though that yesterday & have no idea exactly what is changing either. I do know that that section was there before; some of their example reasons may different, tho. It's been forever since I read the TOS.

(I think this thread probably belongs in the VM forum... )

benslgdroid

Will move

agentc13

I'm pretty sure that they can't terminate service for rooting a device. Wasn't that settled years ago in the courts?

I would look up info, but I am on my phone.

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MacFett

You are correct agentc13, they legally can not do anything (other than refuse warranty service) for rooting a device.

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Android fan#1

lol

melim

^Why is that funny? Those people have to take a lot of crap for very little money.

Android fan#1

I know that.But why would someone threaten them if it's not there fault?

Seanette

You've never worked in a call center, have you? On one of my several call center stints, I was dealing with Med***** prescription coverage and had a caller tell me he was going to find and kill me because Federal law did not let him get as much oxycodone as he wanted without certain required paperwork.

Yep, you read that right. Obeying Federal law (I had no power to do anything else) was grounds to end my life as far as this guy was concerned.

Call center work can be enjoyable when you get sane callers (they can be clueless as long as they're at least polite about it and that's OK), but when you get nut jobs or entitled bullies, it's pretty unpleasant.

fightingirish

I was browsing VM's Facebook page, and allegedly, they're starting to send out texts announcing TOS changes. Rumor is, they'll terminate customers who they find out are rooting or tethering their phones. I don't tether, but I sure as hell rooted, and it's the reason I've kept this phone and their service.

Doesn't VM realize that discouraging rooting is a stupid idea that will just chase away customers?

sammyz

All rooting does at all is void warranty, they shouldn't stop service for being rooted, tethering is another story....

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kwknott

If you compare VM's new TOS to Sprint's they are pretty much similar. I just think it's them bringing their TOS inline with Sprint's.

I don't think there is any way for them to tell you rooted unless you send them back a phone you left rooted.

Last edited by kwknott; May 18th, 2012 at 07:09 PM.

Leslie Ann

I don't think legally they can terminate you for rooting.
We already had court cases like that regarding jailbreaking the Iphone.

Also, in terms of tethering, VM NEVER allowed it before at all.

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Last edited by Leslie Ann; May 18th, 2012 at 07:22 PM.

benslgdroid

They have no way of verifying root anyway.

CuriousNoob

Don't see what's the big deal anyway. We bought the phone, it becomes out possession?

OTHER THAN TETHERING, that's not really ours

benslgdroid

i am moving this to virgin mobile forum and combining it with the other thread that was moved yesterday as they are the same.

agentc13

^This.

They can't terminate service for rooting, regardless of what their ToS says. They can void the warranty though.

MacFett

And now they allow it for an extra $15 a month.

agianne

A couple of things need clarification.

The lead sentence reads: "We can, without notice, suspend or terminate any Service at any time for any reason." They give some examples, but those examples are not all inclusive. Even if the "rooting" example were illegal (which it is not - see below), they could just pick some other reason and you'd be out of luck. Theoretically they could terminate your service because they don't like your shirt. That's what "for any reason" means.

Unlike a "monopoly" landline telco, Sprint (and all other wireless providers) is not a common carrier and is not required by law or regulation to provide service to anyone. They don't have to accept you as a customer and can end the relationship anytime they want and they don't even have to give you a specific reason.

Regarding our phones, all the courts have determined is that rooting/jailbreaking does not violate the DCMA. That's an intellectual property issue, not a provisioning of wireless services issue. No law or regulation guarantees that a customer can force a carrier to accept a customer-provided wireless device or a customer-modified, carrier-provided device. If you take a phone to another carrier, it's because the carrier is choosing to allow it, not because the government is requiring them to do it.

Rooting a phone is not a bad thing to do, morally or otherwise. It's your dang phone, brick it if you want. However, if you are using a modified device (rooted, flashed with a non-carrier provided ROM, spray-painted pink, whatever) and the device causes interference/conjestion/problems on the network, they absolutely can and will suspend your service. It would be unusual to terminate service (meaning they disconnect your account) in the case of an end device going haywire.

It's impossible to know what their intent was without asking someone high enough up that they actually know what they are talking about. I think it would have made more sense if they had said "for example, flashing a custom ROM to a device" since that is more likely to include a change that could hose the network. (I can't conceive of any way that simply obtaining root access could cause network performance problems.) I'm willing to bet that the product manager and lawyer who were responsible for crafting the ToS do not understand the finer points of root/recovery/ROM and as a result, included a weird example.

rukin5197

I have heard of a carrier using a phone's browser to find out if they're running CyanogenMod (this is the thread), but never heard of a carrier provider finding out about rooting. Like someone said before, possibly tethering and the data spiking up. But really there is no way.

My wonder is if because some ROMs make their own apps that are built into their framework, like CM and DSPManager, and MIUI and their apps, if the carrier providers can see if they're using those apps. But like I've said before, just rooting and not installing ROMs would not be able to find out.

I'm not the one to discuss this, though. Leslie seems to be the strong point on all of this stuff. She always has the right opinion on it. (not biased at all). But it's the one thing I've picked up on her. (And she LOVES to write. Those real long paragraphs that you want to get into )

zaphodbblx

the tethering is partly their fault..my optimus v did it right out of the box

Last edited by agentc13; May 22nd, 2012 at 10:18 AM.

Tokens210

for now, i wont even worry about it, its VM just covering all there bases, what gets me the most tho is other companies are trying things like this to, as someone stated the jailbreak-iphone case, there is a microsoft-xbox modder case, and i believe a ps3 case as well

what the companies seem to forget, if i recall correctly, there is a law set in place years ago for consumers, stating once you purchase any electronic devices they become yours to do as you wish, you can take it apart, you can throw it from a bridge lol, you can modify it in 1000x way, as long as what your doing isnt directly trying to steal or take something from the company at hand, or other users within the company, its your device to do as you wish, granted modifing any electronic device severs ties with you and said company on warranty terms, but besides that its yours

not to mention, for our phones these things were basically a must to get things to run smoothly lol, so it would almost be like a shoe company telling you you cant change the shoe laces in the shoes you just bought cause that would be a shoe modification lol



and as for tethering, i dont like anyway there handling it, jumping on the band wagon with all other companies, i got the unlimited plan for a reason, just so if i needed a wifi hotspot for a lil bit, altho it would be slower, i could use my phone, and i pay for unlimited everything so id have nothing to worry about, but there like nah, we dont got enough money yet and some people may have been abusing it so its an extra $15 a month lol, get outta here with that

Last edited by Tokens210; May 20th, 2012 at 12:13 PM.

MikeRL

I swear, if they terminate my service for running CyanogenMod, I'm leaving them for good! CyanogenMod was the only thing that made this phone usable. That, along with rooting and MIUI. If they want my money, they'll state that rooting and custom ROMs are okay, as long as I don't send them a bricked phone. Also, I can see them being mad about tethering. But that is no reason to attack us for rooting and running CyanogenMod/MIUI.

marc12868

If they terminate your serviced for running cyanogenmod and aren't effecting their network (I.e tethering without the plan) then sue...

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MikeRL

Could they terminate my service just for running CyanogenMod? (I never use tethering, I will use the honor system and never tether without paying for the plan). But how am I, a middle-class person living in a corporation-controlled country, supposed to sue a company with an army of lawyers (if they were to terminate my service)?

benslgdroid

Lawyers love that stuff they will do a pay on win.

marc12868

They can't legally do anything if you are rooted/ running a custom rom unless you are affecting the network in some way. But even though they can't they can try and they might get away with it, because that's the way companies run... If they do terminate someone for having a custom rom and they have no proof that they were affecting the network then they can be sued.

agentc13

That being said, unless you are using up a ton of bandwidth (tethering/streaming a ton), it probably won't be an issue at all.

zachavm

I'd stick with a BBB complaint. Much less hassle/money and likely better results.

MikeRL

Does anyone here think they could create something that detects CyanogenMod and automatically terminates your service if it detects it when connected to their network? I'm seriously afraid of this! I love my CM7 and do not want an evil corporation to take its functionality away! I would never tether without paying! In case they ever do create something, could we hack all of the currently developed ROMs to report as stock ROMs? Plus, if they blocked all their phones from running custom ROMs, imagine how much ad revenue that would take away from you guys... And if other companies followed in that technique, this site would loose a lot of money.

agentc13

I wouldn't worry. IMO, they are posting this to try to get away with it and scare people from doing those things (custom ROMs/root). I really don't think they will kick anyone unless there is some other issue (tethering/streaming and using a ton of bandwidth).

Especially with the Triumph and the fact that it will keep growing those alog files, you pretty much have to root the phone (to stop the alog files form growing) to have any internal memory left. So you can always argue that. Companies put out ToS that are not enforceable all the time to try to get away with things. Just cause they write it like that does not make that the law or make it enforceable in practice.

Last edited by agentc13; May 20th, 2012 at 06:11 PM.

MikeRL

The question is, if they wanted to, would they be able to automatically drop service on every rooted phone with a custom ROM?

agentc13

Not legally, no. They could try it, but I don't think it would hold up.

Last edited by agentc13; May 21st, 2012 at 10:51 PM.

Xerpocalypse

IMHO, it's absolute folly for VM to place such a clause in their TOS. Not only has it been established in a legal court of law that they can't terminate us for rooting, but this also brings up another point:

Ultimately, it is VM's responsibility to provide a better user experience for all of its customers, where possible. This, theoretically, includes ROM updates, as they pertain to user experience. Developers such as Isaac, TG, Mantera, G60, and many others have shown that it's more than possible to coax newer versions of Android to work on the Motorola Triumph, so why hasn't VM taken action? Heaven only knows. Since VM has dropped the ball, it seems that it is now the responsibility of the users to provide themselves with a better experience, through whatever means necesary (i.e., rooting, custom recoveries/ROMS, etc.)

The fact that they discourage and illegally state it will terminate your service this makes me wonder what kind of company VM really wants itself to be.

Last edited by Xerpocalypse; May 21st, 2012 at 04:47 PM.

agianne

That is not correct.

TL/DR -

• Rooting your phone is not illegal under the DCMA
• VM can terminate your account for any reason at any time and there is no law or regulation stopping them

The Librarian of Congress released a rulemaking on July 26, 2010 that stated jailbreaking/rooting your device is a specific, allowed exception to the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act), a federal law defined in the United States Code - the courts weren't involved. Said another way, it is not a violation of federal law to root your phone.

Remember that Apple has a locked down device/App Store ecosystem and people can not add legally-acquired, third-party apps to their phones. Jailbreaking/rooting simply allows them to install legally-acquired, third-party apps. The exception is pretty straightforward and doesn't go any further than that.

This rule does not say that you have a right to sue nor does it say anything about conditions under which a wireless company can terminate your service. There are no wireless telecom specific regulations or laws that define those things either. It's an competitive market subject to market forces.

Again, the Terms and Conditions for VM say that VM can terminate your service for any reason. That's pretty cut and dry. As I've said before, they can dump you as a customer anytime they want for any reason they want. It's not illegal because there is no relevant law preventing that.

As a community, we need to do a better job of understanding what the relevant laws are, how they pertain to what we want to do and how we can get what we want while complying with the law. All the tough talk about suing based on laws that don't exist is not a plan for success.

Last edited by agianne; May 21st, 2012 at 05:10 PM.

agianne

Yes, absolutely. It has nothing to do with rooting specifically. When you began using the service, you agreed to the Terms and Conditions which state VM can suspend or terminate your service for any reason.

Although it is very unlikely VM would do it, if they found out you were using a modified device and dumped you for it, there isn't much you could do because you agreed to Terms and Conditions allowing them to do that.

My personal advice is to just not worry about it. They want your revenue. Even if your device acts crazy once and floods the network, they'd most likely just block that device and allow you to fix it or get another one. When I was a manager in similar situations, I always tried to preserve the revenue stream and only dropped a customer when there was significant, unrepentant and/or repeated abuse. I get why people are worried, but I think we're talking about a theoretical concern that isn't likely to come up in actual practice.

septembersrain

From what I'm hearing their major concern is the tethering.
Cyanogen Mod and other roms are not their target UNLESS they already have the built in hotspot/tethering abilities.
I've also been told that certain apps do use an excessive amount of data as well.
ROM Manager for example, Will use a large amount of data when you download a new ROM from its servers.

For them it's about keeping the network from becoming overly congested with customers who are using an excess amount of data.

I have never had a customer tell me of them having their service terminated.
If I ever do, I'll be coming right here to tell you guys...

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Xerpocalypse

Mea culpa, and thanks, it's a bit clearer to me now. I was going to mention that they could because we agreed as customers to their TOS, but I decided not to. Although, I still uphold my belief that it's bad business policy to kick us for rooting, or worse, not providing us with ROM updates when there's an abundance of reasons as to why they should.

Luckily, capitalism helps us a bit, eh? :P

agianne

Yeah, I don't even know that the "official" term/phrase is. I assume it's got to be a phrase something like "gaining root access to the operating system"?

The exception listed by the Librarian of Congress reads:

agianne

Sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was directing that at you specifically. A bunch of us are confused about what's what.

Like you say, market forces are the order of the day in wireless telecom in the U.S., so filing a BBB complaint or a complaint with your state's Attorney General's Office of Consumer Protection (or both) is much more likely to get you somewhere if you think you are being treated unfairly and the company has rejected your reasonable efforts to resolve the issue.

MikeRL

Good, so I get it. They could technically drop me for anything I do that they don't like. The thing is, they'd be shooting themselves in the foot and helping spread a bad reputation about their service if they booted me for having a device with a custom ROM. If they done this practice with all their rooted/custom ROM running users, my guess is that they'd eventually loose a lot of cash. And the only thing I know that companies care about today is cash... So unless they want loads of cash to go into the fire pit, they'd never terminate service for reasons like running a rooted or custom firmware device.

RolaAddict

I do ALOT of tethering.....mainly cause I live in BFE and it's that or nothing and VM hasn't dropped me.There has been like 2 or 3 months I've gone WAY over the 2.5 GB still nothing.They know the phone is for business purposes so that could be why.I literally use my phone for EVERYTHING:GPS,internet,tethering at home or on the go,texing,calling,playing games ect.I don't see VM winning a case if they dropped you cause of data usage.The plan does say UNLIMITED DATA not "You can only use as much data as we say or else you're cut off"They can't PROVE that the phone was rooted or had custom ROM on it without them doing a warrant for your phone if you go to court (which I doubt would fly).I think it's all a scare tactic to keep people from doing what they want with their phones.

OverByter

Besides tethering I think that another issue that they're trying to address with the rooting language is the probably huge number of warranty replacements for user created bricks. While the Triumph and Intercept are damn close to being unbrickable it certainly doesnt stop people from trying their hardest as these and other forums readily prove. Too many people try to root without having any knowledge or even a reason. There is nothing wrong with doing it just because but be an adult and be responsible for your errors without returning devices that you destroyed and subsequently raise the costs for everyone else. In my view this is the same thing as walking into a store and stealing. Both require a concious decision to do wrong.

OverByter

Unfortunately they can cut you off for excessive usage. In a legal sense the term unlimited has a different meaning than the dictionary does. They state that unlimited does not mean "unreasonable " which is solely defined by them alone. Such is modern American law twisting the true definition of what appears to be a simple word. As a former president who also happened to be an attorney once stated "It all depends on what the definition of what the word "is" is" ;-)

Petrah

And because you (and everyone else who uses it without paying) aren't paying for the service like they should, we now get throttled if we go over 2.5gb per month.

Virgin Mobile never said anything about cutting you off. The plan is unlimited and that has not changed. Even if you go over 2.5gb, you still have data access. It's just slower than normal. They have a right to reduce the bandwidth if you abuse their service or take it without paying for it. If people are going over 2.5gb per month, they need an ISP not a mobile carrier.

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OverByter

All carriers can easily tell if you're tethering not by looking at any sudden data "spikes" but by simply monitoring your connection and seeing what user agent strings are being broadcast by your web browser.

ohyeahyeah

That does it.. Im done with VirginMobile. Im going to switch to a GSM unlimite everything for $45 or less a month.

marc12868

If you are talking about Straight Talk there terms are even stricter... just saying . And I don't think there is anyone else who has unlimited everything for $45 or less... T-mo has unlimited everything for $50 though.