Signal Attenuation

[flukeSG2]

Scientific tests conducted by Anandtech, there's always up to a 19.8dB signal loss when you grab the iPhone naturally with your hand, with your skin touching the deadly spot. That's losing signal by a factor of almost 100. The iPhone 3GS only loses 1.9dbs in this case, which is less than double.

- Gizmodo

Out of curiousity, does anyone know how much the EVO attenuates when we grip it normally?

 

[EarlyMon]

Out of curiousity, does anyone know how much the EVO attenuates when we grip it normally?

Yes - I know.

I also happen to know for a fact that several of us here know that as well.

In fact - anyone who finds this a burning issue can find the answer right here:

EVO-CDMA-Meter

PS - On a CDMA (read: Sprint) network, signal attenuation does not equate to call quality, the way it does on AT&T.

 

[cabbie]

Yes - I know.

I also happen to know for a fact that several of us here know that as well.

In fact - anyone who finds this a burning issue can find the answer right here:

EVO-CDMA-Meter

PS - On a CDMA (read: Sprint) network, signal attenuation does not equate to call quality, the way it does on AT&T.

goddammit its been over a year since i fell for that

 

[EarlyMon]

goddammit its been over a year since i fell for that

Yeap - a lot of people fall for the myth that signal attenuation matters on an Evo - or that it even occurs at all any differently in your hand than if you were carrying the phone in your pocket - or if you turned around from where you're standing right now.

But the given resource should help immensely, especially on a holiday weekend, when you can really, really check it out.

 

[RickJ]

Oh man that was just wrong... speechless, but hell, I watched it long enough to get a kick out of BO

 

[EarlyMon]

Oh man that was just wrong... speechless, but hell, I watched it long enough to get a kick out of BO

Yep - it was just wrong of them to show how much better the Evo did than any other phone at the end of how-to demo, wasn't it?

PS - Now who wouldn't agree with me that that meter shouldn't be the #1 way to differentiate the Evo when the iPhone comes up?

Personally, I think it just nails it.

 

[flukeSG2]

Yeap - a lot of people fall for the myth that signal attenuation matters on an Evo - or that it even occurs at all any differently in your hand than if you were carrying the phone in your pocket - or if you turned around from where you're standing right now.

But the given resource should help immensely, especially on a holiday weekend, when you can really, really check it out.

Well it doesn't really matter personally to me, but I wondered if there were numbers out there like the research that Gizmodo did on the iPhone 4, just so I had something to rub in my friends face because he REFUSES to believe there is an antenna problem.

He believes that other companies are putting people up to claiming that their iPhone has issues. His ignorance is very aggrivating and continues to believe I just want to bash the phone because I have an android phone, which wasn't the case, but is quickly becoming so.

 

[bvbull200]

He believes that other companies are putting people up to claiming that their iPhone has issues. His ignorance is very aggrivating and continues to believe I just want to bash the phone because I have an android phone, which wasn't the case, but is quickly becoming so.

It is a cell phone dude, get over it. People need to be a bit more self secure. I'm pretty sure I made the right choice with my phone. I have a few friends with other phones that think the same. When they brag about stuff that their phone does that mine either does as well or better, I don't rush over there to shove it in their face. Show some humility, dude.

 

[EarlyMon]

Well it doesn't really matter personally to me, but I wondered if there were numbers out there like the research that Gizmodo did on the iPhone 4, just so I had something to rub in my friends face because he REFUSES to believe there is an antenna problem.

He believes that other companies are putting people up to claiming that their iPhone has issues. His ignorance is very aggrivating and continues to believe I just want to bash the phone because I have an android phone, which wasn't the case, but is quickly becoming so.

And THAT is exactly what I suspected the case was when you asked your question in the first place.

I can imagine nothing more absurd than two non-radio engineers trying to prove which cell phone is better based on numbers from Gizmodo and those gleaned in a forum, without any clue whatsoever what those numbers really mean.

And because it DOES matter to you personally, stand back and answer him in the only way that makes sense - the way I answered you - with a RickRoll.

Because anyone that wants to continue to drink the Kool Aide and take it out on their friends deserves nothing more than the kindness of practice joke.

RickRolls are free - your bud's Kool Aide addiction and assault wounds by AT&T are not.

Maybe instead of meeting numbers with numbers, taking a higher ground - even if it's low-brow humor - might better convince people to just declare their independence.

So, don't take yourself too seriously, as your friend seems to, or you'll wind up as an Android fanboy.

And while Android fanboys can claim all of the superiority they want to over iPhone fanboys, just remember what I have to say and what bvbull200 have to say:

Don't take yourself too seriously.

It's just a freaking phone.

Friends don't let friends become fanboys - because a fanboy is just a fanboy, no matter what kind.

Happy 4th!

 

[flukeSG2]

Well, to me it's not just a phone, I don't spend $600 on just a phone. If I wanted just a phone, I'd pay $10 a month for a land line and buy one of those $20 things at walmart. I watch movies, play games, browse the internet, check emails, text, etc...

Thanks for the opinions!

Close the thread please I'm not gonna get an answer.

 

[bvbull200]

Well, to me it's not just a phone, I don't spend $600 on just a phone. If I wanted just a phone, I'd pay $10 a month for a land line and buy one of those $20 things at walmart. I watch movies, play games, browse the internet, check emails, text, etc...

Thanks for the opinions!

Close the thread please I'm not gonna get an answer.

It doesn't matter what the device does or how much it costs; that is not the point. I think you had a reasonable question to start the thread, but went astray when it became apparent you were looking for fodder to fuel an Evo vs iPhone pissing match that you are having with your "friend". The point is, show some humility, let your friend be the one running around trying to prove why his material possessions are better than yours. I find that rather shallow and unappealing, but you can take the high-road and have a quiet confidence about the phone that you think is better. Besides, it will free up more time for you to watch movies, play games, browse the internet, check emails, and text on your phone.

 

[EarlyMon]

Well, to me it's not just a phone, I don't spend $600 on just a phone. If I wanted just a phone, I'd pay $10 a month for a land line and buy one of those $20 things at walmart. I watch movies, play games, browse the internet, check emails, text, etc...

Thanks for the opinions!

Close the thread please I'm not gonna get an answer.

This reply is only for flukeSG2 and others that believe that this iPhone comparison is important. If you're not in this camp, or aren't an engineer, you might as well stop reading now.

Fine, I did my best to explain the that numerical comparison you're looking for is meaningless and you're taking that as an opinion.

If the number and its root mechanisms are that important to you and since you seem to be able to follow engineering research, it goes like this -

1. The Evo contains the following radios: FM, GPS, wifi, WiMAX (4G) and CDMA (3G).
2. Whereas all iPhones have fewer radios, and they're differently configured.
3. An iPhone 4 is susceptible to the moisture in your hand contributing to a tendency for natural conductance that can cross-connect antennas and cause signal attenuation, or act as a shield - everyone's familiar with that concept trying to get reception on any radio during the rain.
4. The Evo's larger size forces you to always wrap your hand around it, you don't have the choice of curling 3 fingers below it and grasping in with index finger and thumb like you can will other phones.
5. This larger-object grip causes your hand to have a natural curl.
6. If you recall, iron filings on a paper on top of a magnet prove that all magnetic fields have a natural tendency to curl.
   
7. Radio waves are electromagnetic waves.
8. In addition to moisture, your hand is a terminus for blood flow - in other words, given that it's an end-point on your body, blood flows there, curls around and flows out.
9. Blood contains iron.
10. The effect has been understood for decades, but now that HTC exploited all of this first, others will be following suit.
11. The iron in your naturally curled hand is creating a resonance-circuit closure path between the various radio antennas in the Evo.
12. The electromagnetic flow was going to happen anyway, but rather than being chaotic, it's now being preferentially focused for lateral curl and the flowing iron in your hand is significantly reducing the magnetic reluctance for the antenna.
13. The published estimates call for a 0.278% efficiency increase in the antenna when you hold it.
14. Because dB is really meaningless - it's a relative measure! - how about we use the referenced relative measure common to all radio engineers - the dBm, shall we? That was your first clue that Gizmodo was just being sensational.
15. Anyway, depending on various factors such as the size of your hand, your overall health (been getting your iron lately?) - rather than attenuate the signal, that 0.278% efficiency increase is going to result in additional antenna gain of roughly anywhere from an additional 0.9 to 1.738 dBm.
16. Other phones can't do that - that's part of what makes your Evo so special.

For engineers and hard core tech types only:

From the Radio Systems Interface Design Digest, How to Profit from The Second Reference to North in Curled EM Low-Reluctance Circuit Designs (online archive, org. pub. 1954, XXIVb34, France)

PS - Outside of iPhone: metal, metal conducts and screws up magnets; outside of Evo: plastic, plastic does not conduct and magnetic waves pass right through it.

There was a reason the original telephones were all plastic.

 

[ScorpDX]

Out of curiousity, does anyone know how much the EVO attenuates when we grip it normally?

Dial *#*#4636#*#* then hit Phone Info and look at the signal strength(dBm). Move your hand around and feel up the phone and see how much the level changes +/-

 

[EarlyMon]

Dial *#*#4636#*#* then hit Phone Info and look at the signal strength(dBm). Move your hand around and feel up the phone and see how much the level changes +/-

+1 for info, -1 for taking the fun out of it

 

[ScorpDX]

+1 for info, -1 for taking the fun out of it

Aww come on, I said you get to feel it up...

 

[EarlyMon]

Net gain +1

PS - The more I lol, the more I think +2!

 

[freeza]

This reply is only for flukeSG2 and others that believe that this iPhone comparison is important. If you're not in this camp, or aren't an engineer, you might as well stop reading now.

Fine, I did my best to explain the that numerical comparison you're looking for is meaningless and you're taking that as an opinion.

If the number and its root mechanisms are that important to you and since you seem to be able to follow engineering research, it goes like this -

1. The Evo contains the following radios: FM, GPS, wifi, WiMAX (4G) and CDMA (3G).
2. Whereas all iPhones have fewer radios, and they're differently configured.
3. An iPhone 4 is susceptible to the moisture in your hand contributing to a tendency for natural conductance that can cross-connect antennas and cause signal attenuation, or act as a shield - everyone's familiar with that concept trying to get reception on any radio during the rain.
4. The Evo's larger size forces you to always wrap your hand around it, you don't have the choice of curling 3 fingers below it and grasping in with index finger and thumb like you can will other phones.
5. This larger-object grip causes your hand to have a natural curl.
6. If you recall, iron filings on a paper on top of a magnet prove that all magnetic fields have a natural tendency to curl.
   
7. Radio waves are electromagnetic waves.
8. In addition to moisture, your hand is a terminus for blood flow - in other words, given that it's an end-point on your body, blood flows there, curls around and flows out.
9. Blood contains iron.
10. The effect has been understood for decades, but now that HTC exploited all of this first, others will be following suit.
11. The iron in your naturally curled hand is creating a resonance-circuit closure path between the various radio antennas in the Evo.
12. The electromagnetic flow was going to happen anyway, but rather than being chaotic, it's now being preferentially focused for lateral curl and the flowing iron in your hand is significantly reducing the magnetic reluctance for the antenna.
13. The published estimates call for a 0.278% efficiency increase in the antenna when you hold it.
14. Because dB is really meaningless - it's a relative measure! - how about we use the referenced relative measure common to all radio engineers - the dBm, shall we? That was your first clue that Gizmodo was just being sensational.
15. Anyway, depending on various factors such as the size of your hand, your overall health (been getting your iron lately?) - rather than attenuate the signal, that 0.278% efficiency increase is going to result in additional antenna gain of roughly anywhere from an additional 0.9 to 1.738 dBm.
16. Other phones can't do that - that's part of what makes your Evo so special.

For engineers and hard core tech types only:

From the Radio Systems Interface Design Digest, How to Profit from The Second Reference to North in Curled EM Low-Reluctance Circuit Designs (online archive, org. pub. 1954, XXIVb34, France)

PS - Outside of iPhone: metal, metal conducts and screws up magnets; outside of Evo: plastic, plastic does not conduct and magnetic waves pass right through it.

There was a reason the original telephones were all plastic.

DUDE, if I could give a standing ovation, I would.

 

[dan330]

This reply is only for flukeSG2 and others that believe that this iPhone comparison is important. If you're not in this camp, or aren't an engineer, you might as well stop reading now.


For engineers and hard core tech types only:

From the Radio Systems Interface Design Digest, How to Profit from The Second Reference to North in Curled EM Low-Reluctance Circuit Designs (online archive, org. pub. 1954, XXIVb34, France)

what you u say??
can you please do one for the rest of us?


jk... thanks.. i learned a little something new today...
i learned.. i just dont know enough to argue!

 

[flukeSG2]

...were all plastic.

Wow, that was very informational. Outstanding job sir, I appreciate it!

 

[EarlyMon]

Wow, that was very informational. Outstanding job sir, I appreciate it!

Well - you're very, very welcome. I enjoyed writing it up more than you know.

Now that I have your good ear, I will make this one last plea:

iPhone users are in pain, even if they don't fully realize it from being numb - and even if their phone were perfect, the lion's share is going to come from their carrier.

I really advise against arguing tech in such a case. Here's the full argument, right here:

1. AT&T vs. Sprint: Sprint has much better prices and uses superior CDMA technology for clearer sound.

2. The EVO is the biggest, baddest, best phone on Sprint today.

That's all the tech there needs to be - seriously, trust me, you'll be much better served focusing on that than what I wrote.

And remember:

Per Steve Jobs himself - the iPhone is Apple's idea of the world's best media player and it has a phone.

The EVO is HTC's idea of the best phone and it does media.

Depending on what's important to someone, some arguments can't be won or lost - you only lose by having them.

And if you're friend's that full of it, perhaps just do as I suggested earlier - RickRoll him.

I've said all of that before and I've given you fair warning every way I know how - now - you just go out there and do what you think is best.

 

[meyerweb]

^^^
Very good argument, but I think I enjoyed your prior post more.

 

[EarlyMon]

^^^
Very good argument, but I think I enjoyed your prior post more.

Hey, thanks compadre.

Given that my explanation will be in the blogosphere within days, with the guys at Android Central benchmarking it on YouTube, Tech Crunch giving a stunning expose on it, Gizmodo wrapping 80 ads around the 5-point version ripped from Tech Crunch, EnGadget laying it out with 3 by 3 pictures for each point (but only once they re-order properly) 40 seconds before Tech Crunch gets there, eventually leading to the NYT's shocking revelation that the difference is exacerbated by gender and age for those holding the phone, and the WSJ questioning whether this finally explains why cell phones don't cause brain cancer (and by the way, that's true - our hands have been preventing brain tumors this whole time), and ...

And given that no one's going to credit me for finally letting this insider info go and no one's certainly going to listen to me when I have to go over what they got wrong in the translation - well - it almost gave me a conscience for a moment.

But then, I said to myself, Think of the children!

PS and BTW - Nearly 20 years ago, a similar expose of information led to me being cited in print, real name and all, as the only level-headed UFO researcher on the internet at the time, in that year's most popular book on what to find on the internet and what thrilling information awaited you on the superhighway. (I uncovered why things of that nature really happen only in New Mexico.)

I am not making that up.

I was thinking about that this morning 10 minutes after the secrets flew from my fingers - I almost went back and signed my real name. But then I thought of the legal backlash I might get into as I would, as you most certainly know, have promptly been named a party to the Apple/HTC patent wars, on both sides of fight, and decided to just let things go their own way.

PPS - I wish somebuddy would take me to a tavern and ply me with brew right about now - I'm a terror when I get bored.

 

[cabbie]

Dial *#*#4636#*#* then hit Phone Info and look at the signal strength(dBm). Move your hand around and feel up the phone and see how much the level changes +/-

Excellent posts, guys.

On desk: -69 dbm
Sitting on lap: -78
Holding in hand: -71

Interesting.

 

[Evo_Pimpin]

Subscribed

 

[freeza]

Hey, thanks compadre.

Given that my explanation will be in the blogosphere within days, with the guys at Android Central benchmarking it on YouTube, Tech Crunch giving a stunning expose on it, Gizmodo wrapping 80 ads around the 5-point version ripped from Tech Crunch, EnGadget laying it out with 3 by 3 pictures for each point (but only once they re-order properly) 40 seconds before Tech Crunch gets there, eventually leading to the NYT's shocking revelation that the difference is exacerbated by gender and age for those holding the phone, and the WSJ questioning whether this finally explains why cell phones don't cause brain cancer (and by the way, that's true - our hands have been preventing brain tumors this whole time), and ...

And given that no one's going to credit me for finally letting this insider info go and no one's certainly going to listen to me when I have to go over what they got wrong in the translation - well - it almost gave me a conscience for a moment.

But then, I said to myself, Think of the children!

PS and BTW - Nearly 20 years ago, a similar expose of information led to me being cited in print, real name and all, as the only level-headed UFO researcher on the internet at the time, in that year's most popular book on what to find on the internet and what thrilling information awaited you on the superhighway. (I uncovered why things of that nature really happen only in New Mexico.)

I am not making that up.

I was thinking about that this morning 10 minutes after the secrets flew from my fingers - I almost went back and signed my real name. But then I thought of the legal backlash I might get into as I would, as you most certainly know, have promptly been named a party to the Apple/HTC patent wars, on both sides of fight, and decided to just let things go their own way.

PPS - I wish somebuddy would take me to a tavern and ply me with brew right about now - I'm a terror when I get bored.

LOL you are awesome.