Bush Era Tax Cuts

[savoxis]

So congress is currently debating whether or not to extend the tax cuts put in place during Bush Jr's reign.

There are good arguments I have seen as to why not to extend these tax cuts but I have yet to hear many good point coming from the opposition. Unfortunately my main source of news comes from NPR which albeit a good news station, it veers very much to the left.

Personally I think it would be more important to use this money to help drive down the national debt, than to put it into the pockets of the populace where a good amount of the money will go into foreign markets anyway.

Obama has an idea to suspend the tax cuts to all individuals making more than $250k annually, I think this is a good compromise. Congress already approved a similar bill to help aid small businesses, so this tax cut will only really effect individuals.


What do you think?

 

[copestag]

decreased spending...... not increased taxes..... thats the only way to make it work

 

[savoxis]

decreased spending...... not increased taxes..... thats the only way to make it work

I agree we should decrease spending, but this wouldn't necessarily be an increase it would be a return to what they where during Clinton's reign. Besides wouldn't it be prudent in a time like this to do both?

 

[copestag]

well ...... Im not an economist.... not by any means.. but I can tell you this....... as a small business owner who will be effected

I have 2 options and probably both will be taken......

increase the costs to my customers to try and mitigate the loss in income

decrease payroll to try and mitigate the loss in income

now tell me which of those two are good for the economy? exactly how is raising my taxes beneficial to the country?

do you honestly believe the increased taxes are going to come out of MY pocket?

 

[wiretap]

I agree we should decrease spending, but this wouldn't necessarily be an increase it would be a return to what they where during Clinton's reign. Besides wouldn't it be prudent in a time like this to do both?

Yes, raise taxes on businesses who can't hardly turn a profit in the current economic status. You think unemployment and poverty is bad now.. just wait, hah.

I have an idea, let's not spend trillions, or for that matter, hundreds of billions, especially on bailouts and stimulus plans which didn't work the first several times. Our dollar has already lost roughly 95% of it's value since inception.. we're not too far away from losing the rest of the 5%.

 

[copestag]

I deliberately didnt respond to the OP suggestion that Congress has already passed a bill to help small business so this would only effect individuals...... I must admit I didnt know the exact details of that bill........

now after spending the past hour reading everything I could find on the measure I will respond......

this bill does not offset the tax increases for small businesses...... what this bill primarily does is give billions in investments in banks to increase the ability for small businesses to get loans for capital........ this is all fine and dandy but what good does it do me to have credit that I dont need while at the same time taking more of my away from me in taxes.......

there is some provisions in the bill for tax relief in regards to small businesses..... it eases the rules on deductions for expenditures and depreciation of equipment.......

so in essence .... a company which makes... lets use the lower threshold of $250K...... they will see their taxes increased by over $11K a year...... and this bill will maybe save them a few hundred dollars...... so net loss to them may be $10K instead of $11K....... thanks for the kiss while you rape us

 

[wiretap]

No surprise really.. the bankers are the looters. They make money on the way up and on the way down in any economy. The legislation makes sure they get their way because they're deeply tied in with the politicians. Hell, just look at the entire executive branch. Practically every adviser and appointee has been with Goldman Sachs. It's called collapse by design. They're not fixing things for the general public; they're fixing things for themselves.

 

[ElasticNinja]

I think in 2011 your deficit is going to have to be cut
Increase taxes on $100k+ earners then start cutting spending
Then get states to introduce a few stealth taxes, and a federal carbon tax could raise some money
Once it can be aure there will be no double dip reccession, then increase general taxes

 

[wiretap]

I think in 2011 your deficit is going to have to be cut
Increase taxes on $100k+ earners then start cutting spending
Then get states to introduce a few stealth taxes, and a federal carbon tax could raise some money
Once it can be aure there will be no double dip reccession, then increase general taxes

rofl.. anything to make the depression even worse I guess.

 

[DIDon]

I think in 2011 your deficit is going to have to be cut
Increase taxes on $100k+ earners then start cutting spending
Then get states to introduce a few stealth taxes, and a federal carbon tax could raise some money
Once it can be aure there will be no double dip reccession, then increase general taxes

Or translated more or less:

If you earn money, we'll take it. If you don't, we'll give you some so you'll vote for us. Plus we'll tax the energy needed to make anything so more companies that produce anything will flee to foreign shores.

True, there's won't be a double-dip recession - it'll be a full blown depression.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Sorry dudes
In Ireland we had to learn saying we are going to cut the deficit is a lot easier then doing it

We dont live in wish-washy land [sadly?]

 

[Pop Korn]

well ...... Im not an economist.... not by any means.. but I can tell you this....... as a small business owner who will be effected

I have 2 options and probably both will be taken......

increase the costs to my customers to try and mitigate the loss in income

decrease payroll to try and mitigate the loss in income

now tell me which of those two are good for the economy? exactly how is raising my taxes beneficial to the country?

do you honestly believe the increased taxes are going to come out of MY pocket?

Just wondering.. How did you deal with it before the tax cuts came into play?

 

[wiretap]

Just a guess, but people were still employed back then and could spend their spare income on his products. Just in the past 20 years alone, prices of products have doubled without wages keeping pace. Inflation is killer. Raising taxes again makes it another layer worse.

We should be taking note of our communist friends off the coast of Florida..
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Amer...-government-jobs-is-biggest-change-in-decades

It's hilarious. The commies even admit the system doesn't work and they start cutting government jobs. I only wish we could do the same.

 

[savoxis]

Raul Castro is actually making quite a few good changes in Cuba, I hear he is starting incentives for private business

 

[mith059]

The problem with cutting spending is, as always, what do you cut? The services that the government provides are there for a reason, yes there is plenty of fat to be shed which would help, but no where near enough of that to fix the problem. Letting the cuts expire for the top brackets seems quite reasonable to me with my teachers salary. What real effect is bringing home 240k instead of 250k going to have on them? Or even 125k instead of 135k assuming 50% taxes (no clue what they actually are) I can't even contemplate what I'd do with over 100k a year of profit.

 

[wiretap]

The problem with cutting spending is, as always, what do you cut? The services that the government provides are there for a reason, yes there is plenty of fat to be shed which would help, but no where near enough of that to fix the problem. Letting the cuts expire for the top brackets seems quite reasonable to me with my teachers salary. What real effect is bringing home 240k instead of 250k going to have on them? Or even 125k instead of 135k assuming 50% taxes (no clue what they actually are) I can't even contemplate what I'd do with over 100k a year of profit.

You could cut billions of dollars in spending just from the bullshit studies they do.. That's where I'd start. Then every unconstitutional department.. then all the government cheese programs.. and I'd get government spending down to several billion where it should be. Not the trillions it has become. Give the power back to the states where it was intended to be.

 

[mith059]

You could cut billions of dollars in spending just from the bullshit studies they do.. That's where I'd start. Then every unconstitutional department.. then all the government cheese programs.. and I'd get government spending down to several billion where it should be. Not the trillions it has become. Give the power back to the states where it was intended to be.

You do know that the articles of confederation failed for a reason right? As far as unconstitutional departments.... if they actually were, I think they would have been challenged by now but reasonable thinkers know that they don't really have a case. As far as the billions you'd cut... 4 words for ya: Drop in the bucket. Drops help, but the things you'd have to cut are so much bigger than that. Would you be willing to accept us being a 2nd world nation in the military department?

 

[JimmyRayBob]

i think we should extend the tax cuts, but only after changing the name to the "Obama Tax Cuts" .....

 

[wiretap]

You do know that the articles of confederation failed for a reason right? As far as unconstitutional departments.... if they actually were, I think they would have been challenged by now but reasonable thinkers know that they don't really have a case. As far as the billions you'd cut... 4 words for ya: Drop in the bucket. Drops help, but the things you'd have to cut are so much bigger than that. Would you be willing to accept us being a 2nd world nation in the military department?

No, I'm talking about returning to what the constitution actually says and approves in regards to the size of government and state's rights. Reasonable thinkers know we have grown government beyond constitutional authority. The reason it is not challenged is because government is now corrupt at all levels, all the way through the supreme court where the decisions to overturn unconstitutional legislation is made. And obviously "billions" is a drop in the bucket. I said I would cut the trillions in spending/bailouts/stimulus/etc. It doesn't work and is only causing prolonged problems through borrowed money (which is unnecessary to begin with since we print and coin our own money --it is actually doubling the problem in the long term). Would I accept a 2nd world military? No, it isn't necessary. What is necessary is taking Ron Paul's approach and limiting our engagement and bases in every ****ing country on the planet, and the military industrial complex's grip on every sector of society. You could strengthen the military here at home and perfectly defend the country from any foreign invaders with even cutting the military budget by 2/3.

 

[ElasticNinja]

@wiretap, you do realise that printing money causes [hyper ] inflation right?



If the stimulus wasnt there we would be in Great Depression 2 by now, but some stimulus spending seems plain stupis though..

 

[wiretap]

@wiretap, you do realise that printing money causes [hyper ] inflation right?



If the stimulus wasnt there we would be in Great Depression 2 by now, but some stimulus spending seems plain stupis though..

Yes, I know it causes severe inflation.. and the 'stimulus' just prolonged and expanded our depression. We're making it far worse than it would have been.

 

[BigAl_SC]

Sorry but as a current small business owner and former retail manager, there is one thing that people do not understand usually (this forum seems better than most)

Business's do not pay taxes. Period. Ever. In my former retail chain, we were expected to get about 1.5% net. If Cost of goods, salary of associates, or taxes go up then the cost of the groceries went up or overhead went down. We still made 1.5% net by either raising prices (which everyone paid, a indirect tax increase on everyone not just 250k or more) or someone lost a job. If you could not get more effective or raise prices correctly then you went out of business. More unemployment. It only takes 10% more people to do the job when the other stores get 50% more business because the store down the street priced themselves out of business.

And as a current Sole proprietorship, I do not have to worry about a direct new tax but may have to raise prices due to my cost of living going up via the business tax increases that will be passed on to everyone.

 

[Sevreth]

I know this is an extremely sensetive subject to all. Who wants to pay more money?

Here is my view:

I feel that we should allow all the taxes cuts to expire for those making more than 250k, but also look at the taxes of those making 100k+ individually and consider their tax situation. Now before anyone burns me in effigy, let me point out that I only make 45k per year. I currently pay 30% in taxes.........but someone making 1 million per year only pays 19% in taxes.....so how is that right? 30% of my 45k is huge compared to 19% of 1 million. Most of us middle classers start having trouble when taxes keep going up, but the guy making 1 million per year loses money, but his lifestyle doesnt change. They dont need to worry if they can afford the next bill or mortage payment.

The biggest problem right now in the American Society, is that we dont live within our means. We want bigger and better, and will drive ourselves so deep into debt to get what we want, that we can destroy ourselves quickly (look at the housing bubble). We are so far in debt as a country, I feel it will be our downfall.

I feel the first step is to stop fighting all these wars. I can't stand the fact that my taxes have been funding a "war on terror" which makes no sense. What have we done since it started? Ousted a dictator who didn't have any WMDs? I think we just put gas on the fire instead of water.

I think we also need fresh blood in the Congress & Senate. Some of them have served for so many terms, I think a lot have lost the meaning of serving their country vs. serving themselves. It must be nice to vote on your own pay increases.......I think that vote should be left to the American people.

I do not mind paying taxes......its how the money is spent that bothers me the most.

Cheers,

-Sev

 

[wiretap]

I feel that we should allow all the taxes cuts to expire for those making more than 250k, but also look at the taxes of those making 100k+ individually and consider their tax situation. Now before anyone burns me in effigy, let me point out that I only make 45k per year. I currently pay 30% in taxes.........but someone making 1 million per year only pays 19% in taxes.....so how is that right? 30% of my 45k is huge compared to 19% of 1 million. Most of us middle classers start having trouble when taxes keep going up, but the guy making 1 million per year loses money, but his lifestyle doesnt change. They dont need to worry if they can afford the next bill or mortage payment.

An emergency in your situation does not constitute one on my part. People need not to be punished for their socioeconomic status. If we want equality, we should all pay an equal percentage of income tax regardless of income level.

But the main difference with you is, your income level is low enough where you get most of that back when tax returns come. I used to make around that amount as a single with no dependents and I almost felt like I was leeching off the system with how much they gave back. Just as a wake-up call, the bottom 50% income earners in the country don't pay income taxes.

 

[byteware]

@wiretap, you do realise that printing money causes [hyper ] inflation right?



If the stimulus wasnt there we would be in Great Depression 2 by now, but some stimulus spending seems plain stupis though..

The stimulus isn't even fully spent. There is still over a third that has not yet been spent.

the economy was beginning to recover before even half the stimulus was spent.

the stimulus had nothing to do with preventing the second "Great Depression".

The Bank bailout did, but not the stimulus.






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As far as the poll goes, I'm all for phasing them out as the economy recovers, but raising taxes during the recovery (whether we are raising them back to where they were, or not) is not a good idea. We need as much private spending as possible. Removing some of the private money that would be spent, isn't going to help us recover.