Froyo Quadrant scores, why is Humming bird doing so bad?

[SamsungVibrant]

Sorry, I meant to ask this question of Captivate owners who already have Froyo.

Accidently posted in wrong section.

I guess I'll just say it here too, anyone know why the Hummingbird is doing so bad on Froyo. There is virtually no speedboost.

EDIT: The intention is to find out why the HUMMINGBIRD cpu scores or low. I'm not talking about lagfix I/O scores.

 

[HadouGhost]

doesnt need the nexus one style of JIT.

also the quadrant scores of the galaxy s phones is because of the I/O. for some reason the vibrant and the i/o readings of the quadrant benchmark dont like eachother. apparently the lagfix fixes this, and when 2.2 comes out (which will make you not need the lag fix) the scores will be 2k+ . which will then show you that, yes indeed, the galaxy s phones are top dog.

 

[SamsungVibrant]

doesnt need the nexus one style of JIT.

also the quadrant scores of the galaxy s phones is because of the I/O. for some reason the vibrant and the i/o readings of the quadrant benchmark dont like eachother. apparently the lagfix fixes this, and when 2.2 comes out (which will make you not need the lag fix) the scores will be 2k+ . which will then show you that, yes indeed, the galaxy s phones are top dog.

Hey Ghost, I guess I'll copy and paste what I wrote in the Captivate forum for you. My intention is to make a clear distinction between lag fix i/o, and CPU score. Yes the Galaxy S gets a huge score on quadrant with lagfix. This is an I/O issue, has nothing to do with CPU. I think your are confusing i/o performance with cpu. Again, my intention is the CPU boost that Froyo was suppose to bring, but it seems like there might be incompatibility with Hummingbird.

If you purchase and run Quadrant professional, you will see that the hummingbird recieved almost no improvement in CPU scores. Again you need prof version to see this.

I wish I could remember the link where I saw galaxy S running 2.2, and it was doing horrible on CPU scores.

here is what I wrote in captivate forum
"I may be mistaken, but Froyo was available to Captivate users in the leaked JI6 firmware, yes?

Well I'm wondering what your Quadrant scores are, running Froyo JI6, on an otherwise stock Captivate, meaning no lagfix.

So here is why I'm asking, I read somewhere, can't remember the link, that Froyo is having some issues with the Hummingbird. Basically it offers no speed-boost at all to the Captivate...Froyo was expected to dramatically improve CPU scored on Quadrant.

This video also has me worried, this guy in the video ran quadrant and got a score of 975...I already get 925 on my vibrant stock, running 2.1. Froyo is suppose to give us scores like 1800 without lagfix, NOT 975!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toMEdPKlDnc

Is it true Froyo is not bumping up the CPU performance in the hummingbird cpu? Quadrant scores were suppose to almost double, but it seems like Froyo may have a compatibility issue with Hummingbird. Anyone know details about this?

Also, please try to understand my intention. I want to know if Froyo is delivering the CPU score boost that the others processors are seeing. I realize Quadrant scores can be boosted by LagFix, but again, I'm isolating the I/O lag issue from the CPU score. This is probably best if you run Quadrant pro...it breaks down the individual scores. Again, I'm saying it more than once, because someone is going to tell me to run lagfix to improve my score. Lagfix doesn't have anytihng to do with cpu performance, thats I/O...I'm trying to narrow down the reason behind why hummingbird is NOT getting a boost from Froyo.

I was also reading a site, cant remember which, they showed the Hummingbird running on Froyo, and the quadrant scores were HORRIBLE, virtually no speed boost.

We may have the fastest 2.1 processor, but if the hardware is not fully compatible with 2.2's full potential, then it means we have the slowest processor amongst 2.2 phones

Thank you for your insights.

Maybe you guys can please post your Quadrant score, running froyo on your stock captivate, meaning no lagfix, no overclock...etc.

thanks!"

edit:
Another video showing 2.2 beta, the cpu score in BLUE IS HORRIBLE. This is quadrant professional.

 

[Onemoa]

Hey, I was just wondering about the lag fix. You say we will not need one with Froyo? Why is that, like what are they doing with Froyo to fix it?

 

[SamsungVibrant]

Hey, I was just wondering about the lag fix. You say we will not need one with Froyo? Why is that, like what are they doing with Froyo to fix it?

I never said Froyo would fix the I/O issue.

okay people aren't understand what i'm talking about.

Quadrant free addition gives you 1 raw total score. The score is composed of cpu, i/o, graphics performance, etc.

Lagfix fixes the i/o issue and gives a higher quadrant score. But i/o is not cpu.

FORGET I/O...pretend like I/O and lag, and lagfix do not exist. Abolish I/O from the face of this planet, this discussion is about Froyo 2.2 and the performance boost it was suppose to bring to the CPU.

One of the main selling points of Froyo 2.2 is the incredible boost it is suppose to bring to the CPU. However, there is no performance boost for the Hummingbird. I'm trying to get to the heart of the problem. WHY ISN'T HUMMINGBIRD SEEING A CPU PERFORMANCE BOOST.

FORGET I/O...I/O ISN'T THE PROCESSOR.


I hope this helped clarify what I'm trying to ask.

 

[Onemoa]

Ok I got it, thanks

 

[perpetual]

I dont know what quadrant is testing on the cpu part, but perhaps it's a quadrant problem and not a hummingbird/froyo one. Are there any other programs that test cpu performance? Perhaps it will perform better in other cpu tests.

 

[southplatte]

Could it be the way the kernel is compiled by Samsung on these devices?

Just a thought....

 

[fangorious]

The main reason is the JIT has to be optimized to produce efficient native code that makes use of the CPU's architecture. Right now it is most effective on the Qualcomm snapdragon/scorpion cores. Also, the scorpion core is just a superior architecture than what is in the Hummingbird.

Although the Cortex-A8 and Scorpion cores share many similarities, the Qualcomm design delivers better performance. Both cores support the NEON set of SIMD instructions for integer and single-precision floating-point arithmetic, and the VFP extension for double-precision arithmetic.

The Scorpion core, however, can process SIMD instructions in 128-bit-wide chunks, while the Cortex-A8 is restricted to 64 bits. Scorpion also has a deeper pipeline, which includes VFP commands, while VFP commands are not pipelined in the Cortex-A8.

source

In layman's terms the scorpion core in the G2/DesireZ/DesireHD can process bigger chunks of data, and has a longer assembly line that accommodates more simultaneous tasks than the Hummingbird.

Presumably the leaked 2.2 Captivate ROM has a an unoptimized JIT so the native code it produces isn't really any better than what the Dalvik VM is running. It should get better, but probably won't be as good as devices running the latest Qualcomm chips. The GPU is still better in the Galaxy S though.

 

[SamsungVibrant]

The main reason is the JIT has to be optimized to produce efficient native code that makes use of the CPU's architecture. Right now it is most effective on the Qualcomm snapdragon/scorpion cores. Also, the scorpion core is just a superior architecture than what is in the Hummingbird.



source

In layman's terms the scorpion core in the G2/DesireZ/DesireHD can process bigger chunks of data, and has a longer assembly line that accommodates more simultaneous tasks than the Hummingbird.

Presumably the leaked 2.2 Captivate ROM has a an unoptimized JIT so the native code it produces isn't really any better than what the Dalvik VM is running. It should get better, but probably won't be as good as devices running the latest Qualcomm chips. The GPU is still better in the Galaxy S though.

Best reply so far. I agree with what you said. Other stuff I've read online concur. However it appears Samsung may not be able to optimize Froyo any further. I think we will ultimately see that Froyo will bring no significant cpu performance gain.

Seems like engineers at Samsung weren't thinking about anything beyond 2.1 for this CPU.

Sad. So basically there is no point in Froyo 2.2 at all now other than Flash. Galaxy S phones are going to basically see no significant advantage in CPU performance. Man, seriously my last Samsung product.

 

[perpetual]

Does the nexus one, evo 4g or any super phone released up to now besides the g2, have the scorpion core?

 

[SamsungVibrant]

Does the nexus one, evo 4g or any super phone released up to now besides the g2, have the scorpion core?

I think the answer to that is no, but I may be wrong. Which is even more damning against Hummingbird since Scorpion is getting a huge performance boost on froyo 2.2 also. errrrrrrrr why oh why.

 

[fangorious]

Pretty sure the G2 is the only phone that has it. Someone on the G2 forum has a link to an Anandtech article with some good benchmarks and the comments on that article indicate the mytouch slide and the aria have some component in common with the G2. Pretty sure it's not yhe CPU core though. The upcoming MyTouch [HD] has the scorpion core, but the 1 GHz version of the CPU. So that may perform even better.

 

[perpetual]

the thing is that the G2 doesn't perform as well as the nexus one on the cpu quadrant test. This could of course be because it's only 800mhz, but still is supposed to be better since is second gen. It will be interesting to see how the Mytouch HD performs in the cpu department compared to the nexus one since both will run at 1ghz. Then we will see whether the second generation Qualcomm chip is actually better than the first or if it's improvement is just on the GPU part.

 

[SamsungVibrant]

the thing is that the G2 doesn't perform as well as the nexus one on the cpu quadrant test. This could of course be because it's only 800mhz, but still is supposed to be better since is second gen. It will be interesting to see how the Mytouch HD performs in the cpu department compared to the nexus one since both will run at 1ghz. Then we will see whether the second generation Qualcomm chip is actually better than the first or if it's improvement is just on the GPU part.

OMG this looks horrible, look at this video. The blue score is CPU, 2.2 is doing horrible on CPU scores. The green I think is I/O fixed with lag, but we don't care about that. CPU is more important since Froyo was suppose to significantly increase the performance.

This sucks! I hope it's just because of it being in beta stage, I pray. But the samsung galaxy s tablet with official 2.2 is doing horrible in cpu tests too, wtf!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYGwptNyy4Y

 

[maverick777]

Read this:

In depth reason why you see such high gains on Snapdragon CPU's and why Quadrant is not a good CPU test if you want to compare real world performance.

Benchmarks: high-end Android smartphones | Page 2 | Smartphones | ZDNet UK

Short answer for Hummingbird in Quadrant - Snapdragon has NEON support. Hummingbird and OMAP don't. What does it mean in normal use? Pretty much nothing.

 

[SamsungVibrant]

Read this:

In depth reason why you see such high gains on Snapdragon CPU's and why Quadrant is not a good CPU test if you want to compare real world performance.

Benchmarks: high-end Android smartphones | Page 2 | Smartphones | ZDNet UK

Short answer for Hummingbird in Quadrant - Snapdragon has NEON support. Hummingbird and OMAP don't. What does it mean in normal use? Pretty much nothing.

Hey I was the first to post that article here, then robo21 made an official thread for it, I've already read that. Where does it say Quadrant is not a good test in that article, what page? I might have overlooked it.

This paragraph worries me the most:
"It's clear that FroYo's JIT compiler currently only delivers significant performance gains for Snapdragon CPUs with the Scorpion core. This in turn explains why, so far, only a beta version of Android 2.2 is available for the Cortex-A8-based Samsung Galaxy S

 

[HadouGhost]

I read this thread and laugh. Why do you think 2.2 isnt out yet? maybe..hmm..lets think, samsung is optimising 2.2 to work swimmingly with the hummingbird. thats why the dude who mostly got 2.2 to work on a vibrant sees crappy quadrant scores. Also, lets find a new cpu test besides quandrant. screw quadrant.

*sigh*

 

[SamsungVibrant]

I read this thread and laugh. Why do you think 2.2 isnt out yet? maybe..hmm..lets think, samsung is optimising 2.2 to work swimmingly with the hummingbird. thats why the dude who mostly got 2.2 to work on a vibrant sees crappy quadrant scores. Also, lets find a new cpu test besides quandrant. screw quadrant.

*sigh*

I read your comment and laugh.

Actually the official 2.2 is already out on the Galaxy S Tablet, which also runs the same Hummingbird processor, and it too is not receiving the performance boost promised by 2.2. Znet also commented on 2.2 not optimizing Hummingbirds cpu performance.

You do know the main selling point of 2.2 was the cpu boost right? So basically Galaxy S owners are getting nothing more than flash player when 2.2 comes out.

*sigh*

 

[perpetual]

What I dont understand is why is it that even though the vibrant is scoring substantially lower than other phones, it's faster in comparison videos showing real life situations. For example, it's faster loading web pages and smoother panning and scrolling. It even beat the apple ipad at loading web pages. The only part where it lags behind is when opening and switching apps, but of course we know why this is.

 

[SamsungVibrant]

What I dont understand is why is it that even though the vibrant is scoring substantially lower than other phones, it's faster in comparison videos showing real life situations. For example, it's faster loading web pages and smoother panning and scrolling. It even beat the apple ipad at loading web pages. The only part where it lags behind is when opening and switching apps, but of course we know why this is.

Because the GPU is fantastic, the PowerVR SGX540. Offers nice smooth scrolling and graphics. But it seems the Hummingbird is not as good for anything beyond 2.1

 

[HadouGhost]

the sgx540 is nice. Is it still the latest gpu in phones???

 

[SamsungVibrant]

Happy thoughts.

 

[perpetual]

Because the GPU is fantastic, the PowerVR SGX540. Offers nice smooth scrolling and graphics. But it seems the Hummingbird is not as good for anything beyond 2.1

I'm sorry samsung but saying things like this doesn't make you sound very knowledgeable. Just because froyo might not provide a boost in cpu quadrant scores, doesn't mean that the hummingbird processor is not good beyond eclair. After all, quadrant is just one testing tool among many. I believe a smoother real world experience counts a lot more. You seemed to miss my point as well. Why would I want a phone that gets a higher score in quadrant but provides a less than expected experience as opposed to one that scores less but provides a smoother experience.

I equate a smoother experience with a more powerful phone than one that gets higher scores on quadrant but provides a less than stellar performance.

 

[HadouGhost]

I agree with what the other guy said, despite the hummingbirds lax capeabilities, it seems to be faster and smoother in all real world tests. Dont real world tests mean more than...say a benchmark?

i agree with you on the fantastic gpu...I love me some back breaker football.