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Westboro Baptist Church and other Radicals: Enough is enough?

but where would you draw the line of how far back they have to be. It's a slippery slope. If you say they can't protest a funeral, does that mean, on site, in the state, what about on the internet? Am I not allowed to protest a funeral, the day of the funeral, on a website, from xx number of states away?

I also don't think they should be outside birthing rooms either, but that's private property. But they do have a right to protest OUTSIDE the hospital, on public property. People protested Octamom having more kids when she was on govt assistance already.... do those protesters also have rules put on them saying they aren't allowed to protest her on public grounds?

To me, the KKK deserves just as much protection as the ACLU, as the NAACP as much as westboro baptist, as much as Thomas Paine handing out pamphlets. And so long as they follow the established guidelines in peaceful assembly (that just means non-violent, not agreeable assembly), then let the KKK march

"you aren't allowed to say anything unpopular or speak against xxx during this set time or you'll be arrested" - you seem ok with that rule during a funeral, what about during Obama's next campaign rally. "you aren't allowed to say anything unpopular or speak against Obama during election time"


I still feel if Westbor baptist was protesting a baby-killing soldier's funeral, noone would be giving a rat's patoot about what happened at the funeral. I can't change your opinion on the matter, but I can definately ask you to self - reflect a little and see if you're being hypocritical or not

I am not sure how far they should be from the funeral. Perhaps we need to start raising children that are taught from the beginning that there are some things you do not do. Protesting a funeral at graveside is wrong, and I do not care what your rights are under the constitution, it is just wrong.

The framers of the Constitution would be ashamed at how some fools twist the rights they are afforded. Simply shamefull to protest a funeral.

We have certain rights but unfortunatly, too damn little common sence.

Bob Maxey
 
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I am not sure how far they should be from the funeral. Perhaps we need to start raising children that are taught from the beginning that there are some things you do not do. Protesting a funeral at graveside is wrong, and I do not care what your rights are under the constitution, it is just wrong.

I agree, that's why Westboro baptist was behind the established lines. People are assuming (and your post seems to lead to that assumption) that they were mixed in with the funeral, doing the child like "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you" thing that kids do to each other.

I just find it hard to believe that everyone here who is speaking against Westboro would have spoke out against them had they been protesting Dillan Harris and Eric Kleibold's funeral. It's easy to deny constitutional rights to the unpopular. But once upon a time, it was unpopular to say a woman should be allowed to vote, or that a black man was equal to a white man... Good thing the constitution protected MLK, huh?

The framers of the Constitution would be ashamed at how some fools twist the rights they are afforded. Simply shamefull to protest a funeral.

see, this is a fall back statement of last resort.... how do you know they'd be ashamed? The Boston Tea party was breaking and entering, vandalism and destruction of property, but history books remember it as one of the greatest protests in American History.... So tell me how do you know that the framers weren't smart enough to realize that ALL speech needs protecting, not just popular speech.

We have certain rights but unfortunatly, too damn little common sence.

Bob Maxey
I can agree with that.

The only reason I support Westburo's right to do what they did, (not the message), was because they did their civic duty and made sure they followed established rules and guidelines and made sure they didn't violate pre-existing boundaries. I can argue his message all day, but they showed common sense when it came to fulfilling their duties when excercising their Constitutional rights.
 
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I agree, that's why Westboro baptist was behind the established lines. People are assuming (and your post seems to lead to that assumption) that they were mixed in with the funeral, doing the child like "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you" thing that kids do to each other.

I just find it hard to believe that everyone here who is speaking against Westboro would have spoke out against them had they been protesting Dillan Harris and Eric Kleibold's funeral. It's easy to deny constitutional rights to the unpopular. But once upon a time, it was unpopular to say a woman should be allowed to vote, or that a black man was equal to a white man... Good thing the constitution protected MLK, huh?



see, this is a fall back statement of last resort.... how do you know they'd be ashamed? The Boston Tea party was breaking and entering, vandalism and destruction of property, but history books remember it as one of the greatest protests in American History.... So tell me how do you know that the framers weren't smart enough to realize that ALL speech needs protecting, not just popular speech.


I can agree with that.

The only reason I support Westburo's right to do what they did, (not the message), was because they did their civic duty and made sure they followed established rules and guidelines and made sure they didn't violate pre-existing boundaries. I can argue his message all day, but they showed common sense when it came to fulfilling their duties when excercising their Constitutional rights.

Perhaps my statement is a "fall back statement of last resort.... " Perhaps you might ask those of us that use it, why we use it. It ain't a crutch and it aint an intellectually lazy answer. I must believe that at least a few gathered here have read our founder's writings.

We use it because it is true and we can often surmize what they would say about things these days, based upon what they wrote at the time; not to mention, what was written about them.

We buy you books and you eat the pages.

Bob Maxey
 
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I know why you use it, you use it under the guise that you think I've never picked up a history book in my life, never studied politics, never majored in political science and have never heard that argument for every issue from political parties to women suffrage to slavery.

and now, to support the argument that limiting free speech is ok...... so long as what is being said isn't popular
 
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I know why you use it, you use it under the guise that you think I've never picked up a history book in my life, never studied politics, never majored in political science and have never heard that argument for every issue from political parties to women suffrage to slavery.

and now, to support the argument that limiting free speech is ok...... so long as what is being said isn't popular

Perhaps you have picked up a history book. Perhaps you even read it through and highlighted the pages with a shiny red marker. Heck, all I can go by are your posts and seems to me, you ate the pages.

Or perhaps you think Wikipedia is some sort of hew fangled electronical history book.

As for being a Political Science major, what school did you attend? Much can be gleaned from that bit of info. I think a liberal education is worse than not going at all and apparently, the left hugged you pretty tight.

Bob Maxey
 
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Well one thing id like to throw out there is the people of this church are completely in the wrong here as well as other situations, if its the one I think it is they usually put up some really offensive signs (on their marquee thing) weekly. this is the type of church that makes me proud to be agnostic. giving established religion a horrible name. And they were wrong. I wouldnt be surprised if there was deliberate name calling towards the individuals, which I believe would turn it into a violent protest (since its a personal attack, although im not sure if thats cause to consider a protest violent)
 
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Well one thing id like to throw out there is the people of this church are completely in the wrong here as well as other situations,

agree - the message is wrong, but that's not what's being debated in the Supreme court, it's if they have the right to say it at the time they said it. I believe they are.

if its the one I think it is they usually put up some really offensive signs (on their marquee thing) weekly.

agree, but that's freedom of speech and I'll fight tooth and nail to allow them the right to say it.


this is the type of church that makes me proud to be agnostic. giving established religion a horrible name.
This type of church does do more harm than good and you're the demographic that I believe is the reason they do more harm than good. I personally think there are good churches and bad churches and a church that's right for me, may not be right for you, and vice versa. But when that have it out for established church, like you, or those who aren't sure if church is for them or not, sees something like this and it either justifies your belief or sways fence sitters away, using the most extreme church as your deciding factor. It's like saying ALL catholic priests are pedophiles because the catholic church down the road had a pedophile as a priest.

And they were wrong. I wouldnt be surprised if there was deliberate name calling towards the individuals, which I believe would turn it into a violent protest (since its a personal attack, although im not sure if thats cause to consider a protest violent)

again, the subject of the message is not what I'm debating with you, but the thing about this church is, they never said "the dead soldier was a ***" they said, "God kills soldiers for punishment for America supporting ***s"

fine difference there. Insulting, yes, hurtful, yes, direct attack.... no.

remember, when blacks said they were equal to whites, it was met with violence, and the blacks KNEW it was going to meet with violence, yet they pushed forward with it. The people in the wrong are not the ones who are practicing their freedom of speech, it's the ones that allow their anger to get the best of them. Should the blacks been forced to shut up and not gather peacefully because whites were going to escalate the violence? So why should this church be forced to shut up because others will escalate to violence.

Westboro preacher is a very politically savy individual. Very intelligent in that regard. I am just perplexed and quite frankly worried at how fast people in America are willing to take away someone's freedom simply because they don't like what they hear.
 
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yeah, I'm anything but liberal... but this, to me isn't an issue of liberal vs conservative. It doesn't matter if it's "God hates ***S" , "I have a dream..." or "9/11 was bad" ALL speech should be protected.

Well, not all speech is protected or should be protected.

Fighting words, defamation, child pornography, blackmail, true threats, threatening the President of the United States, solicitations to commit crime, plagiarism of copyrighted material . . . lots of stuff have zero protection.

Keep in mind that the Supreme Court often looks at reasonableness when deciding these difficult issues. The often cited example is you have no right to yell fire in a crowded theater. Your freedom of speech is quashed because there is a compelling public interest your you to keep your mouth closed in the theater.

I do agree, even the most egregious speech must (generally) be protected.

Bob Maxey
 
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There is no such thing as true free speech. If there was, then you could hide behind everything that you say. There are consequences.

I agree.

We need to teach people that there are limits to every right granted us by the Constitution of the United States. Unfortunately, I fear the growing liberal Supreme Court might look at cases with less regard for the Constitution and make rulings that restrict speech.

Bob Maxey
 
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I don't care if the dead person is Jeffrey Dahmer. The family has the right to grieve in peace. That dead person may have been horrid, but they still have family and people who loved them. Funerals are for the mourners, not the dead person. As far as I'm concerned if the protester is within view of the mourners it's too close.

The "liberals" are more about rights, not less rights unlike the conservative right who wants their rights, but doesn't want others to have those rights too.
 
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You can't yell fire in a crowded theatre and claim free speech. But like it or not, Westboro Baptist is a Civics 101 lesson plan. They are extreme, they are fanatics, and if they showed up at my son's funeral protesting like they did that marine, I don't know what I would do but since suing them doesn't work, I would have no problem spending the night in jail by punching a bish in the face. However, they educate themselves on the law, where that line is, and they go RIGHT UP TO THAT LINE, but make sure they don't cross it. That is the duty associated with free speech.

Freedom of speech protects ALL speech, not just popular speech.

Hold on and wait just a tiny, bloody second. You defend (admirably, I'll say) their right to speak but if they were to show up at your son's funeral, you are not sure what you would do. Perhaps bash them in the face?

Seems to me, you have trouble with consistency. You defend their right to insult others by claiming their right to speak is vital, but if it happens to you, you will stop them with violence.

How the hell can we trust your comments and opinions when they are contradictory?

What is the difference between what you would do at your families funeral and the government putting you in jail for speaking?


Bob Maxey
 
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Hold on and wait just a tiny, bloody second. You defend (admirably, I'll say) their right to speak but if they were to show up at your son's funeral, you are not sure what you would do. Perhaps bash them in the face?

Seems to me, you have trouble with consistency. You defend their right to insult others by claiming their right to speak is vital, but if it happens to you, you will stop them with violence.

How the hell can we trust your comments and opinions when they are contradictory?

What is the difference between what you would do at your families funeral and the government putting you in jail for speaking?


Bob Maxey

Just because I defend your right to say it, doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion I'm willing to fight for. I have never said I agree with Westburo's message, and I have never said that the dad in the story isn't allowed to sue, or even take it to the Supreme Court for them to hear. I also would not have faulted him for whipping the man's ass or even putting a slug between his eyes.... I just said that Westboro Baptist is Constitutionally allowed to say it when they follow set protocol (which they did). But if it were happening to me... I would fight it just as hard.... however, I'm educated enough to know I'm on the losing end of the issue. Family is worth fighting for though, even if you're 100% wrong.

I admire the guy who's suing Westboro Baptist, but my opinion of him doesn't affect Constitutionality of the issue at hand.


The problem is, popularity of opinions varies throughout time.... MLK wasn't popular at the time but he was allowed to say it. Thomas Paine wasn't popular at the time but was allowed to say it

The Freedom riders in Miss. were saying unpopular things but they were allowed to say it. So we shouldn't be allowed to tell Westboro they aren't allowed to say it because we don't agree.


What I see coming out of this case is this....

Westboro will be chastised by the court. The court will give their opinion that they are extremists. The SC may also bump back the established lines pushing protesters farther back from funerals.... but in the end, they will be allowed to protest.
 
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but where would you draw the line of how far back they have to be. It's a slippery slope. If you say they can't protest a funeral, does that mean, on site, in the state, what about on the internet? Am I not allowed to protest a funeral, the day of the funeral, on a website, from xx number of states away?

You honestly can't think of wording that's acceptable?

Like, can't disrupt the proceedings? And yes, protesting on site during the proceedings is disrupting the proceedings.

The proceedings involve more than putting a body in the ground, they involve mourning.

Your argument here is akin to saying we can't make murder illegal because someone might need to kill someone in self defense, or might kill someone by accident.


To me, the KKK deserves just as much protection as the ACLU, as the NAACP as much as westboro baptist, as much as Thomas Paine handing out pamphlets. And so long as they follow the established guidelines in peaceful assembly (that just means non-violent, not agreeable assembly), then let the KKK march

No one has argued differently.

"you aren't allowed to say anything unpopular or speak against xxx during this set time or you'll be arrested" - you seem ok with that rule during a funeral, what about during Obama's next campaign rally. "you aren't allowed to say anything unpopular or speak against Obama during election time"

Unpopular? I don't care whether something is unpopular. I care whether it disrupts the rights of the mourners.

Those are entirely different situations.

I still feel if Westbor baptist was protesting a baby-killing soldier's funeral, noone would be giving a rat's patoot about what happened at the funeral. I can't change your opinion on the matter, but I can definately ask you to self - reflect a little and see if you're being hypocritical or not

So, you don't think the families of criminals have the right to mourn their dead in a funeral?

There are some who would agree with you, but that doesn't make it right.
 
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when does mourning end and I'm allowed to protest.... in the community.... online.... in public....

Heck, if I don't agree with you protesting JFK's Presidency today, I'll just claim that I'm 'still in mourning' so I can make you shut up.

What disrupts the proceedings? Making a website that denounces a person the day of his funeral? They weren't at the grave protesting (private property) they were as close as they could legally get protesting.... that's the difference. They did not interfere with, or block passage between the the funeral home and grave. They did not block the entrance to the grave yard... they did not spit on the grave.


What about protesting at an intersection that the funeral procession will pass by? (public land) So long as they don't throw rocks, impede the traffic, I'm sorry they are... and should be allowed.


Does that mean I brake for a protester who trips and falls in my truck's path as I'm heading that way.... not on your life (or their's).

That soldier died protecting the rights of Westboro Baptist to do exactly what they did.
 
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when does mourning end and I'm allowed to protest.... in the community.... online.... in public....

Heck, if I don't agree with you protesting JFK's Presidency today, I'll just claim that I'm 'still in mourning' so I can make you shut up.

There are three things that I couldn't claim which makes this statement ridiculous.

1) I couldn't claim that the funeral was still going.

2) I couldn't claim that I was still attending the funeral.

3) I couldn't claim that you were present at the funeral with me, disrupting my mourning.

What disrupts the proceedings? Making a website that denounces a person the day of his funeral?

umm... how would a website disrupt the physical proceedings of a funeral?

They weren't at the grave protesting (private property) they were as close as they could legally get protesting.... that's the difference. They did not interfere with, or block passage between the the funeral home and grave. They did not block the entrance to the grave yard... they did not spit on the grave.

They weren't there to disrupt putting a body in the ground. They were there to disrupt the mourning that accompanied putting someone in the ground.

If the Supreme Court rules that mourners have a right to privacy during that time, then they violated the rights of the mourners, and will pay a heavy price for it.

What about protesting at an intersection that the funeral procession will pass by? (public land) So long as they don't throw rocks, impede the traffic, I'm sorry they are... and should be allowed.

The extent of the right to privacy during the funeral would be up to the Supreme Court, but I would say, unless they are in the act of burying, the dead, then it wouldn't interfere with their right to mourn the dead.

That soldier died protecting the rights of Westboro Baptist to do exactly what they did.

And the Supreme Court will determine whose rights have the greatest weight in the situation. The mourners, or the protesters.

Will the protesters rights to free speech be harmed by being forced to protest away from the actual funeral, out of sight of the mourners?

I don't think so.

Will the right to privacy of the mourners be infringed by the protesters?

I think so.

And just because it's public land, doesn't mean that gives them the right to invade your privacy. They can neither gather at your home just because they disagree with you, nor can they photograph you through your window, legally.

Public land doesn't give them carte blanch to do whatever they want to protest.

There are more rights here than just the Freedom of Speech, but you seem perfectly happy letting the rest disappear.
 
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There are three things that I couldn't claim which makes this statement ridiculous.

1) I couldn't claim that the funeral was still going.

mourning is restricted JUST TO THE DAY OF THE FUNERAL? Some people/cultures mourn for weeks/months. Back in the 1800's here in the US, it was considered normal to mourn for AT LEAST a month

2) I couldn't claim that I was still attending the funeral.



3) I couldn't claim that you were present at the funeral with me, disrupting my mourning.
[/quote]

but they can argue they weren't on the funeral grounds....Disrupting at the intersection halfway between the funeral home and grave site is no different than the intersection right off the graveyard.

What about air space? Can I rent a plane and pull behind it, a sign that says "God killed your son because America supports gays"

What about cyberspace?

My point is.... lines have to be established both ways... I'm allowed to protest... setting a 10 mile bubble from whatever arbitrary point opens up to stuff like I stated.... airspace, travel route, etc.

"MLK, you can protest that Alabama won't allow this african-american child from going to an all white school all you want, you just can't do it at the school she wants to go to, you have to do it at the black school she's supposed to go to". That just doesn't cut it.


umm... how would a website disrupt the physical proceedings of a funeral?

IDK, encourage anyone who supports it to go by and honk and make noise as they drive by. See, there's the double standard... a popular view protest of a baby-killer marine would have people take them up on the offer if the event is well organized. We are again, now punishing unpopular protests over popular protest



They weren't there to disrupt putting a body in the ground. They were there to disrupt the mourning that accompanied putting someone in the ground.

so again I ask, at what point am I allowed to criticize JFK's presidency.... I'm sure one of his kids could argue "I'm still mourning my father's passing" and get me to stop if they didn't like what I was saying...

If the Supreme Court rules that mourners have a right to privacy during that time, then they violated the rights of the mourners, and will pay a heavy price for it.



The extent of the right to privacy during the funeral would be up to the Supreme Court, but I would say, unless they are in the act of burying, the dead, then it wouldn't interfere with their right to mourn the dead.

I can create a protest parade down your street.... or at the corner your house is on and you can claim "MOURNING STILL" for how long. Mourning time is too arbitrary a period to limit. We STILL mourn John Lenin's death every year.



And the Supreme Court will determine whose rights have the greatest weight in the situation. The mourners, or the protesters. [/quote

See, maybe this is a deal like driving... is it a right, or privaledge.... Personally, I think you have the right to bury them on private property without interferance or someone you don't want right there. But you don't have any RIGHT to not have someone protest it with pre-established rules and procedures.

Will the protesters rights to free speech be harmed by being forced to protest away from the actual funeral, out of sight of the mourners?

Define "away".....they were on public property, didn't impede the procession, or come onto private property. I'm not familiar enough with the size of the grave yard in relation to the closest part of public property, though. If you're arguing the line should be moved BACK.... that's a different argument altogether. And again, does this mean I can't position my group along the route I'm assuming they would take to the grave site? And would you be upset if this were a baby-killer this was happening to as opposed to a war hero?

I don't think so.

I do

Will the right to privacy of the mourners be infringed by the protesters?

I think so.
You will never be able to criticize dead person again because someone will always be able to claim "I'm mourning still"

And just because it's public land, doesn't mean that gives them the right to invade your privacy. They can neither gather at your home just because they disagree with you, nor can they photograph you through your window, legally.
and none of that occurred. A home is still private property. the roadway outside your home is not... as long as they give you acess in and out, and don't pelt you or your car with bricks, or something like that, it's like an abortion clinic... you can protest, but not block access.

Public land doesn't give them carte blanch to do whatever they want to protest.

they didn't go carte blanch.... they did not block the entrance, physically assualt, throw stink bombs or anything... they voiced their opinion at the designated place.
There are more rights here than just the Freedom of Speech, but you seem perfectly happy letting the rest disappear.[/QUOTE]

you haven't convinced me Westboro violated any rights. And unlike Right to free speech.... right to an agreeable mourning is not in the Bill of Rights





on a side note... how did the Westboro protest of the highschool that someone mentioned on here go today? I am very interested in hearing about that.
 
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http://www.godhates***s.com/schedule.html

that link will probably get filtered as it has the deragotory F word for gays in the title

Coeur d'Alene High School in Coeur d'Alene, ID October 22, 2010 6:10 AM - 6:40 AM
WBC will picket Coeur d'Alene High School to remind this nation that flipping off their God has consequences! The parents and teachers across this doomed nation raise their children (whom the Lord their God entrusted them with for the purpose of teaching them His commandments) for the devil himself. The so-called adults teach the students to be vain, selfish, sinful, violent, lusty, God-hating, brats who turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness. WBC has seen the face of the high school students all across this nation and knows the truth. These kids react with foaming mouths and violence to the true Word of God. They can all repeat the lie that "it's OK to be gay," but are incapable of uttering one single word of Gospel truth! Their parents and teachers have failed them and as a result live in fear of the violent beasts they've created.

2 Peter 2:18-19 "For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage."

lol - we have a "Brat" on the forum.... lol I don't agree with what they say, but I do support their right to say it.
 
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Some Canadian legislation:

Hate Propaganda vs. Free Speech
In a high-profile case in 1990, the Supreme Court of Canada weighed James Keegstra’s rights to free speech against the offence of wilfully promoting hatred under the Criminal Code. As a teacher, Keegstra made racist comments in the classroom.
The court ruled that under section 1 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, a limitation of free expression is justified in a democratic society. The court stated that since hate propaganda harms us all, then stopping its spread helps people from different backgrounds to live together — and may even reduce violence in Canada. For these reasons, the Supreme Court said that section 1 of the Charter "saves" the crime of wilfully promoting hatred. In other words, the court said that that Keegstra had in fact broken the law.

More on the case:
James "Jim" Keegstra is a former public school teacher in Alberta, Canada, who was charged and convicted of hate speech in 1984. The conviction was overturned by the Court of Appeal but re-instated by the Supreme Court of Canada. The decision received substantial international attention and became a landmark Canadian legal case.

Keegstra was an auto mechanic, a former mayor, and a high school teacher in the town of Eckville, Alberta.[1] In 1984, Keegstra was stripped of his teaching certificate and charged under the Criminal Code of Canada with "wilfully promoting hatred against an identifiable group" by teaching his social studies students that the Holocaust was a fraud and attributing various evil qualities to Jews. He thus described Jews to his pupils as "treacherous", "subversive", "sadistic", "money-loving", "power hungry" and "child killers". He taught his classes that the Jewish people seek to destroy Christianity and are responsible for depressions, anarchy, chaos, wars and revolution. According to Keegstra, the Jews "created the Holocaust to gain sympathy" and, in contrast to the open and honest Christians, were said to be deceptive, secretive and inherently evil. Keegstra expected his students to reproduce his teachings in class and on exams. If they failed to do so, their marks suffered.[2]
Keegstra attempted to have this charge quashed as a violation of his freedom of expression; this motion was denied, and he was convicted at trial. Many of his former students testified against him. Publicly stating that Keegstra had brought their town into disrepute, locals were unable to impeach Keegstra as mayor and instead overwhelmingly voted him out of office at the next election.

Keegstra appealed this conviction, claiming that it was in violation of Section 2(b) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. This section guarantees "freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication." Keegstra also challenged his conviction on the grounds that Section 319(3)(a) of the Criminal Code of Canada, which states that a person cannot be convicted of promoting hatred if she or he establishes that the statement is true, but only where the accused proves the truth of the communicated statements on a balance of probabilities, was a violation of Section 11(d) of the Charter. That section guarantees "the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal." Keegstra was not able to demonstrate the truth of the many antisemitic statements he made to his students, on a balance of probabilities. In the CBC News presentation Canada's Hate Law: The Keegstra Case (1991), Keegstra himself displayed the material in which his views were obtained, admitting that none of it came from mainstream historical sources.
Keegstra's appeal ultimately reached the Supreme Court of Canada, in the case of R. v. Keegstra. In December 1990, the Court upheld Keegstra's conviction, ruling that the law's prohibition of hate propaganda and suppression of Keegstra's freedom of expression was constitutional. The majority of Justices looked at hate speech as not being a victimless crime, but instead having the potential for psychological harm, degradation, humiliation, and a risk of violence.

Then the joke that is sentencing in Canada:

At his original trial, Keegstra was given a fine of $5000. A subsequent decision by the Alberta Court of Appeal reduced that to a one-year suspended sentence, one year of probation, and 200 hours of community service work at a hot dog stand.While the Supreme Court upheld the original conviction and the constitutionality of the law, they did not restore the original sentence.


*sigh*
 
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that doesn't surprise me coming from the Socialist Republik of Kanada. Not saying the guy was right, just trying to differentiate between types of speech (popular or non-popular) and justifying it by throwing in the word "propaganda" is dangerous.

Truth ads on TV use propaganda. Portraying cig execs as heartless, uncaring, evil people only concerned with money. They de-humanize them to get their point that cigs are deadly. I'm willing to bet there are church-going, community oriented people that are also tobacco execs....

but there you go, since anti-smoking is popular free speech, noone is concerned with the propaganda they use. But let Westboro say something, suddenly propaganda has to be stopped...
 
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