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Chaos in Egypt

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Vihzel

Destroying Balls Everyday
Apr 8, 2010
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This is absolutely insane with what's going on in Egypt. Obviously this is the biggest news all around the world. What bothers me the most is probably the "pro-Mubarak" (aka. hired by the government or hidden police force) harassing, assaulting, and holding foreign journalists.
 
We really get too preoccupied with this democracy thing. Its what Bush was trying to do in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that hasn't worked out too well.

What happens when newly democratic middle east nations want to go to war with Israel, or support clandestine attacks on the US with the full resources of a government behind them? Muslim Brotherhood, who is trying to co-opt the protests have pretty much said, thats what they want to do.
 
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We really get too preoccupied with this democracy thing. Its what Bush was trying to do in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that hasn't worked out too well.

What happens when newly democratic middle east nations want to go to war with Israel, or support clandestine attacks on the US with the full resources of a government behind them? Muslim Brotherhood, who is trying to co-opt the protests have pretty much said, thats what they want to do.


There are no "newly democratic" Middle Eastern states, and I am including Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
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Thanks to the presence of the media, it is patently transparent that the "trouble" is being initiated by Mubarak supporters.

yup, they're bringing out the cavalry now!!!

camel.jpg
 
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Would this be a case of the West(United States) interfering in the affairs of a foreign country?

the US and Europe have been interfering for a long time there already
the people have reasonable demands, and are going about the whole "revolt" very impressively
Even the Muslim Brotherhood is quite reasonable (altho i despise these kind of parties), altho i would not agree with those who say they would be like the APK
 
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the West just needs to ensure a Democratic secular led government comes to power



Democratic doesn't mean secular. If the majority of people want a religious theocracy, then thats what democracy will bring.

If the majority of Egyptions are peacful people who desire a secular democracy, thats what they will get.

If the majority of Egyptians fall more on the Muslim Brotherhood side (who wants democracy as a means of ending the current system only.) Then Israel is in for trouble.

A democracy only produces a peaceful nation if the population is peaceful... if the population is blood thirsty, democracy produces a blood thirsty government.

The Palestinians elected Hamas, who have total destruction of Israel written into their charter.
 
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Democratic doesn't mean secular.
as can be seen by countries like Ireland *sigh*
If the majority of people want a religious theocracy, then thats what democracy will bring.
of course, but it does not seem that they do
If the majority of Egyptions are peacful people who desire a secular democracy, thats what they will get.

If the majority of Egyptians fall more on the Muslim Brotherhood side (who wants democracy as a means of ending the current system only.) Then Israel is in for trouble.
i think the majority would lean towards the former, and Egypt already has implementation of elements of Sharia law in its legal system
i think a MB majority government would mean trouble for Israel, but where the MB is a minor partner in a coallition government, it might make Israel see the mess they have got themselves into and set about fixing it
A democracy only produces a peaceful nation if the population is peaceful... if the population is blood thirsty, democracy produces a blood thirsty government.
Egypt is quite peaceful, its a middle income economy and its people are relatively well educated to a reasonable degree, there have been incidents (the coptic murders) but these do clear;y not represent the vast majority of Egyptians
The Palestinians elected Hamas, who have total destruction of Israel written into their charter.
unfortunately so, and now they realise their mistake... its a shame Fatah became so corrupted, that said, poverty breeds political corruption :(
 
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The Muslim Brotherhood are NOT a concern for the US. I mean, seriously, they aren't radicalized. They aren't anything other than MUSLIM. Al Qaeda pretty much hates the Muslim Brotherhood. They have been at peaceful opposition with the government of Egypt for decades.

A democratic government will rise. It will be one "of the people" of Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood will play a part in that government. Foreign policy for Egypt will more or less continue on as it always has, but Egypt will no longer police it's border with Israel with as strict of a military hand as it has until now. That will be Israel's job.
 
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its getting really bad but what I don't get is how he has been in power for 29 years and the public choose to protest NOW!
also once he is out of power (?) do you think the country will ever be the same?
no, it wont be the same

byteware said:
The Muslim Brotherhood are NOT a concern for the US. I mean, seriously, they aren't radicalized. They aren't anything other than MUSLIM. Al Qaeda pretty much hates the Muslim Brotherhood. They have been at peaceful opposition with the government of Egypt for decades.

A democratic government will rise. It will be one "of the people" of Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood will play a part in that government. Foreign policy for Egypt will more or less continue on as it always has, but Egypt will no longer police it's border with Israel with as strict of a military hand as it has until now. That will be Israel's job.
good point, tho the Muslim Brotherhood is quite far right, in a sense they are like the influence of the Catholic the church in the 30/40/50's in countries like Ireland... it would be better if they weren't there, but excluding them only makes things worse
If they were to become a single party government, i'd doubt they'd have the necessary respect for a secular state
 
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as can be seen by countries like Ireland *sigh*

No... as can be seen by countries like, Iran or Israel. *sigh*


of course, but it does not seem that they do

I think the only thing about the Egyptian population, in general, that can be drawn from the protests is their tired of Mubarak. What they would replace him with I think various greatly.

but where the MB is a minor partner in a coallition government, it might make Israel see the mess they have got themselves into and set about fixing it

So you've got no problems watching the Middle East explode into WWIII?

Agree or disagree with the Israel on the Palestinian issue, if Egypt takes a turn towards aligning with Iran, things have the potential of falling into chaos real fast.

Egypt is quite peaceful, its a middle income economy and its people are relatively well educated to a reasonable degree, there have been incidents (the coptic murders) but these do clear;y not represent the vast majority of Egyptians

I hope thats true, and would love to see a peaceful democratic Egypt.

unfortunately so, and now they realise their mistake... its a shame Fatah became so corrupted, that said, poverty breeds political corruption

Why do you say they realize their mistake now? Last I heard Hammas is stronger than ever and the PA is teetering on collapse.

The Muslim Brotherhood are NOT a concern for the US. I mean, seriously, they aren't radicalized. They aren't anything other than MUSLIM.

Well, will the MB openly attack the US? No. But one of the driving sources of Al-Quedia, Hamas, Hezbulla, etc. was the Muslim Brotherhood. Hamas, who routinely target innocent civilians, is direct offshoot of the MB.

Not to mention the numerous financial connections between the MB and Islamic terrorist organizations.

The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state"

I think the idea the MB would accept secular democracy as anything but a stepping stone to their end goal of a true (in their mind) Islamic state is silly.

The MB true, isn't a violent organization, its ideas and ideology are greatly in tune with violent Islamism.

Al Qaeda pretty much hates the Muslim Brotherhood.

Because the MB doesn't openly call for violence.

I don't think the MB is some political front for terrorist organizations, but I don't think they want the same things as western secular democracies.

They have been at peaceful opposition with the government of Egypt for decades.

They've also been linked to political assassination.

A democratic government will rise. It will be one "of the people" of Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood will play a part in that government.

I think those are pretty obvious statements, like "the sun will rise tomorrow."

Foreign policy for Egypt will more or less continue on as it always has

I think thats a little harder to call.

but Egypt will no longer police it's border with Israel with as strict of a military hand as it has until now. That will be Israel's job.

And thats partly, what can cause the region do explode.

Egypt opens up its boarders with Palestine. Hamas (helped partly by elements in the MB and others) start smuggling more and more weapons and rockets into Palestine.

Israel, in an attempt to keep rockets from falling on schools, launches an operation similar to what happened in 2008. All out conflict between Hamas and Israel breaks out. Hezbollah, which recently took a stronger hold of Lebanon government sees Israel in a weak point, and pushed by (and supplied by) Iran launch attacks against Israel as well.

Thats not a situation I'd like to see play out. No matter what side of the debate your on, that situation would lead to thousands of innocent dead people.
 
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If you are thinking that Muslim Brotherhood will be peaceful, and understanding you have been drinking a bit too much kool-aid. It will end up being very very very very bad if they take over. Murabak needs to go, but seriously, bringing in the MBH....even worse...

My personal opinion... this is rooted more in islamaphobia, than it is in facts.
 
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My personal opinion... this is rooted more in islamaphobia, than it is in facts.

You can't deny the MB's political stance and their own statements. True, they are more a political party today than a resistance organization, but the ideology that drives them (Islamism) is the same that drives radical violent Islamists.

Image if the KKK formed a political party to promote candidates and run in elections... thats pretty much what the MB is.
 
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No... as can be seen by countries like, Iran or Israel. *sigh*
i dont recall Iran ever having free or fair national elections... in places like Ireland the Church was given a "special position" allowing censorship, coverups and destructions of any attempts of socialism, despite the fact Ireland had been democratic for a few decades beforehand
Even today, just a small percentage of schools are secular :(


You can't deny the MB's political stance and their own statements. True, they are more a political party today than a resistance organization, but the ideology that drives them (Islamism) is the same that drives radical violent Islamists.

Image if the KKK formed a political party to promote candidates and run in elections... thats pretty much what the MB is.

a corrupted form of Islamism and social problems is the driving force for Al Quaeda
The Muslim Brotherhood and similar parties are the result of people believing the bull their parents believe in
Either way, they are highly unlikely to become the biggest player in Egypts Government
 
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You can't deny the MB's political stance and their own statements. True, they are more a political party today than a resistance organization, but the ideology that drives them (Islamism) is the same that drives radical violent Islamists.

The ideology that drives Evangelicals is the same that drives some Crazy militias.

That doesn't make Evangelicals in this country a threat.

Image if the KKK formed a political party to promote candidates and run in elections... thats pretty much what the MB is.

Nope, that ISN'T what the MB is. What the MB is, is a group that was formed decades ago, and originally resorted to terrorist activities to try to affect Change. However, about two decades ago, they changed to a peaceful resistance.

It wasn't much reported here, but you should really look at the MB's role in being Human Shields for the Christians in Egypt after the bombings this past year.

Look past the word "Muslim" (and according to SNL... "Brotherhood") and look at who they are. Then it isn't so scary.
 
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The ideology that drives Evangelicals is the same that drives some Crazy militias.

I disagree, Evangelical Christianity has a long ideological and traditional history of respecting state authority while preaching their message. Christian ideology itself doesn't bother with trying to order the state, Jesus was preaching about things beyond governments... "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." I know of no major Christian organization that calls for Christianity to be the basis of how to order the state. They may push for laws that reflect their morality, but thats different than saying the Bible should be the basis for the structure of a government. Where exactly in the bible does it explain what a Christian government should look like?


Nope, that ISN'T what the MB is. What the MB is, is a group that was formed decades ago, and originally resorted to terrorist activities to try to affect Change. However, about two decades ago, they changed to a peaceful resistance.

And how is that different than say, the KKK, that used to use violent tactics to effect change, starting a non-violent political party?

It wasn't much reported here, but you should really look at the MB's role in being Human Shields for the Christians in Egypt after the bombings this past year.

First, a handful of Christian friendly Muslims doesn't negate a hundred plus years of religious discrimination.

I'm not saying their monsters, but that they are not going to be the ones pushing for secular democracy. They push for democratic changes, yes... but because they want, and think, an Islamic state will rise from the will of the people if you allow more democratic processes.

Interesting tidbits...

Wikipedia:
In 1997 Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Mustafa Mashhur told journalist Khalid Daoud[102] that he thought Egypt's Coptic Christians and Orthodox Jews should pay the long-abandoned jizya poll tax, levied on non-Muslims in exchange for protection from the state,


Mohamed Mahdy Akef, the Supreme Guide of the Muslim Brotherhood
Akef added that “the Brotherhood does not and will never recognize Israel … Israel does not exist in the Brotherhood’s dictionary.”
http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=14407

Muslim Brotherhood leader Youssef Qaradawi on Suicide Bombers:
I have [supported] this for more than 20 years. I am not the only one to support this. More than 300 Muslim scholars have supported it. I do not automatically permit martyrdom operations. I permit them under specific constraints, when necessary – like in the case of our Palestinian brothers, who are forced to defend themselves by turning themselves into bombs.
http://globalmbreport.org/?p=579

MB opposes child protection laws:
Saad El Katatny, the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood bloc in parliament, says his movement is not opposed to the child law as a whole, rather "just those provisions that run counter to the norms, customs, and nature of the Egyptian people."

Aspects of the law that he takes issue with include articles that make it illegal to try children as adults, permit birth certificates for the children of unwed mothers, restrict corporal punishment, raise the marriage age to 18 years, and reinforce a standing ban on female circumcision.

"When you do things like this, for example limiting the age of marriage to 18, it does not reflect the norms of our society, it reflects international norms," Mr. Katatny adds.


Supporters of the law accuse the Muslim Brotherhood of playing politics with children's rights and argue that changing cultural attitudes that endanger young people is the exact intention of the law.

"We wanted the law to be stringent or extreme because we want it to challenge some of the prevalent norms and values in our society, particularly female genital mutilation (FGM) and the practice of child marriage," says Hany Helal, who directs the Egyptian Center for the Rights of the Child and helped the government write the law.

"In our country, a number of forms of violence against children have become the norm," he adds.

One of the most controversial subjects in the law is female circumcision, which remains widespread despite a year-old ban that was enacted after a girl died during the procedure in June 2007.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2008/0724/p05s01-wome.html
 
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I disagree, Evangelical Christianity has a long ideological and traditional history of respecting state authority while preaching their message. Christian ideology itself doesn't bother with trying to order the state, Jesus was preaching about things beyond governments... "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." I know of no major Christian organization that calls for Christianity to be the basis of how to order the state. They may push for laws that reflect their morality, but thats different than saying the Bible should be the basis for the structure of a government. Where exactly in the bible does it explain what a Christian government should look like?

So, basically all Christians do, is do the exact same thing Muslims do when they want Shariah law to be passed as the law of the land... gotcha.

That is different from Muslims How exactly?

And how is that different than say, the KKK, that used to use violent tactics to effect change, starting a non-violent political party?

Or say... the Catholic Church... or the black panthers... or many many different anti-war groups... or Peta (well, this was is ongoing, but that's a different matter)...

Get rid of Islamophobia... and view the world as it is... not as you are afraid it COULD be.

First, a handful of Christian friendly Muslims doesn't negate a hundred plus years of religious discrimination.

Yes, but MOST muslims have forgiven Christians for this... Oh wait, you ARE referring to Christians discriminating against Muslims right...?

I'm not saying their monsters, but that they are not going to be the ones pushing for secular democracy. They push for democratic changes, yes... but because they want, and think, an Islamic state will rise from the will of the people if you allow more democratic processes.

They aren't monsters, you just know what they are going to do because of a stereotype based in ignorance and fear?

Interesting tidbits... 90% of females in Egypt have gone through genital mutilation. The Gov. has outlawed it (twice) but the clerics (MB types) push to keep it around.

First off, the clerics have FORBIDDEN Female Circumcision.

The Grand Mufti of Egypt prohibited it, and leading Islamic scholars issued a Fatwa regarding the process.

And "Clerics (MB Types)"... hello?

I mean... you may not realize it but you are spouting stereotype after stereotype after stereotype. No actual information, just stereotype of the big bad Muslim group.

Wikipedia:

Well, nice way to clip only what painted them in the light you want them painted.

Wikipdeia said:
In 1997 Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Mustafa Mashhur told journalist Khalid Daoud[102] that he thought Egypt's Coptic Christians and Orthodox Jews should pay the long-abandoned jizya poll tax, levied on non-Muslims in exchange for protection from the state, rationalized by the fact that non-Muslims are exempt from military service while it is compulsory for Muslims.

Non-Muslims should pay the tax because military service is only compulsory for Muslims, which isn't evil, or targeting non-Muslims. It's a valid political desire for a valid existing reason.

Now, if you would rather them make military service compulsory for EVERY citizen of Egypt, that's fine too... but I have no issue with them imposing a tax on those who have no compulsory military service, and NOT those who do. It's not the way I would solve the problem, but it's a reasonable solution.

What I find most reprehensible is that you KNEW why they wanted that tax imposed, but decided to leave it out simply because you wanted to paint them in a bad light. Making the MB look bad was more important to you than the truth. But no... you aren't racist
 
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shadowninty:


i dont recall Iran ever having free or fair national elections...

Do you watch the news? Do you know who Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is?
His 2005 presidential campaign, supported by the Alliance of Builders of Islamic Iran, garnered 62% of the runoff election votes, and he became President on 3 August 2005.[12][13]

Do you not remember the protests after his re-election?
Iranian presidential election, 2009 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



a corrupted form of Islamism and social problems is the driving force for Al Quaeda
The Muslim Brotherhood and similar parties are the result of people believing the bull their parents believe in
Either way, they are highly unlikely to become the biggest player in Egypts Government

First, its pretty impressive you've determined what true Islam is, and therefore can detect corrupted Islam... Muslims are still fighting over that one.

Second, What ever the source of the MB beliefs, it doesn't change the fact thats what they, and billions others around the world, believe and act on. When a suicide bomber blows up a bus of civilians in Israel, I don't think they will take much comfort in the notion the attacker was motivated by a "corrupt" Islam.


Either way, they are highly unlikely to become the biggest player in Egypts Government

Can I borrow your crystal ball? Besides the Army, the MB are the only organization in Egypt with any kind of structure or organization. Pretty much every commentator familiar with the situation believes its very possible that the MB emerges with much more influence than before.

What makes you so sure about your unique opinion?
 
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