Wisconsin Union Bill

[cipher6]

So, Wisonsin is trying to pass a bill that would take collective bargaining power aware from the public employee unions. So all the dems have refused to show up, the troopers are out looking for them, and the unions are having a huge protest. Using some illegal methods, like illegal teacher strikes (so many "called in sick" they had to close schools) and even busings students to the protests (illegal also).

1. How do you feel about taking away collective bargaining? Wis. is pretty much bankrupt, due in part to union demands.

2. How do you feel about the union tactics to stop the democratic process of elected officials voting on laws?


Some links:
Dems missing from Wis. Capitol ahead of union vote - Yahoo! News

Unions want to overturn election result - JSOnline

 

[Dark Jedi]

I look at it this way if they don't like it find another job.

 

[hakr100]

Sure. Take away collective bargaining. Those who have to work for a living are nothing more than serfs, anyway, and they should be grateful for what they get. Hell, let's break them all down to minimum wage while we're at it, and get rid of their health care and pensions. They can always put themselves at the mercy of the health insurance companies.

That's the ticket.

Oh, and while we are at it, how many of those jobs can be down by telephone by workers in India?

 

[cipher6]

Were talking public non-federal employees unions. Like teacher, county clerks, city workers etc.

The problem is, the state is stuck, based on union agreements, funding retirement plans well beyond anything private industry does... to the point its bankrupting them. These states are in the same boat the USPS is, unions won big concessions from government to fund these things, and now its bankrupting the state, and they can't be fix under current laws.

Why should we let unions suck our states budget dry to the point of collapse?

 

[copestag]

guessing someone will chime in and inform us there are enough rich people in wisconsin to tax ........ they should be the ones paying for the union thievery

 

[ElasticNinja]

take it away
give it back when the union leaders get some common economic sense

 

[Dark Jedi]

Well if they don't take this deal then there wont be no money to pay them with and they will be out of a job. Sometimes we must take cuts for the better good of the company or in This case the state government.

 

[copestag]

they get paid pretty good and have great benefits...... and the terms being called for in the bill will still allow them to be better off than the majority of people in the state...... this boils down to union greed plain and simple

all the dems are staying in a hotel in IL so they cant be forced to vote......... playground tactics.... if I cant have my way I'll take my ball and go home..... they dont want to lose all that extra union money they get for keeping the bullies in power

 

[Potvin63]

I have no problem with getting public employees to kick in more money for their health care and pension but this bill is excluding police officers from this process. I just think if you are going to lump teachers, sanitation and other state employees into this it should be done across the board with all state employees.

Coming from a heavily unionized state that is facing similar budget issues due to public employee health care and pension plans they pay little if anything for, New Jersey, they want to limit union rights as well. I think it would be a smarter play to reduce some but not all of the bargaining powers of the unions in Wisconsin. Otherwise it is perceived as extreme (regardless of whether it is or not) and in two years these same workers will come out in force to turn the tables on the majorities currently in the statehouse.

Some states aren't even considering compromise and instead going straight to what they want. An extremely dangerous path to take in a state that was the first to grant unions generous negotiating rights.

 

[cipher6]

I think it would be a smarter play to reduce some but not all of the bargaining powers of the unions in Wisconsin.

Thats whats being done, under this bill they would still retain collective bargaining powers for wages, just not benefits.

I have no problem with getting public employees to kick in more money for their health care and pension but this bill is excluding police officers from this process. I just think if you are going to lump teachers, sanitation and other state employees into this it should be done across the board with all state employees.

I agree, but you know the first thing the opposition would say if they included cops was, look what their doing to the hard working people who police our streets... I think excluding cops was more of a PR move.

 

[byteware]

Unions served a great purpose once. They created something in this nation that we would never have had without them.

Then they morphed into something horrible and predatory.

Is it me, or does it seem that every major entity (state/local government or corporation) headed into bankruptcy has some serious union issues?

 

[mdram]

Unions served a great purpose once. They created something in this nation that we would never have had without them.

Then they morphed into something horrible and predatory.

i totally agree. unions are no longer needed. they protect people that should be fired. (ex the ny rubber rooms where teachers that couldnt be fired were paid to sit around all day)

its time for states to pass right to work laws and allow people to opt out of unions. they can bankrupt a company by going on strike

 

[byteware]

i totally agree. unions are no longer needed. they protect people that should be fired. (ex the ny rubber rooms where teachers that couldnt be fired were paid to sit around all day)

its time for states to pass right to work laws and allow people to opt out of unions. they can bankrupt a company by going on strike

GM spent billions on something similar for auto workers. The plants were closed, but they weren't able to let the employees go... Billions a year on employees that have no job.

Go unions?

 

[ElasticNinja]

I can't say i feel that unions have a place in devoleped countries
any evidence to the contrary?

 

[byteware]

I can't say i feel that unions have a place in devoleped countries
any evidence to the contrary?

I still think they could have a place, but it would require EQUAL representation from management and the employees. The needs of the company AND the employees must be balanced.

 

[ElasticNinja]

the way i see it ATM is that unions generally just try to milk the most out of employers but wont work with them to ensure a viable future

 

[dark4181]

I think it's ridiculous that the state of Wi pays 94% of union benefits from public taxation. The bill isn't even to cut it to zero, it's to par it down to 88%, and yet these whiny entitled troglodytes are having an aneurysm like they're about to dissolve the unions entirely

I say go ahead and dissolve them. I worked in a mixed union/non-union plant for 5 years. I got worked to death (non-union) on a daily basis, expected to churn out 30 units an hour for $12 an hour; while the fat cat union workers sat on their asses, doing the exact same job on the same line, putting out 3-4 units per hour at $25-30 per hour.

Screw the unions.

 

[Tempusfugit]

Can't speak for WI, but here in CA, the pension benefits are outrageous. We're firing teachers and have 40+ child classroom sizes, and we're still paying gov't workers ridiculously high retirement benefits.

I don't care what you were promised. People are promising me Social Security benefits. I've already written them off, and they've already sent me letters telling me I'll only get a percentage of what I paid in(which will shrink to 0 by the time I'm eligible). Just because someone who couldn't balance a budget promised you something doesn't mean you get it at the cost of future generations. By that logic, the bell city council members deserve the 100s of thousands they were making, because someone promised it to them.

Oh, and screw unions, I worked as a scab during the grocery store strikes. Now every time I go to albertson's and check myself out in the automated lanes, I make it a point to ask anyone with me, don't you think its weird that these people felt they had the right to strike when they can be replaced by machines so easily??

 

[Crude]

Unions have their place. They maintain a healthy balance between employer and employee. But just like employers can take advantage of it's employees, the unions are taking advantage of the employer.

IMO state and federal jobs should NEVER be unionized. There is no profit margin in public services. I'm pro scott walker

 

[Hangdog42]

Why the hell do unions get all the blame? Excuse me, but for each and every one of the examples brought up in this thread, some management moron AGREED to the union demands. Did the UAW get out of line? Sure did, and management agreed to let them. Every time. Are teachers unions preventing incompetents from being fired? Yup. And school boards agreed to it.

The problem isn't just unions, it is people on the other side of the table not doing their jobs. Unions don't have some unholy power to force their wishes upon an unwilling partner. Lets make sure the spineless saps who didn't negotiate decent agreements with the unions get their share of the blame. Where is the resolution demanding that anyone who authorized a union contract in the last decade be immediately fired and fined for gross incompetence? Where is the effort to subject previous GM executives to clawbacks of their pension and benefits for allowing job banks to be created?

It took two to dance this tango, and until people wake up and realize that unions aren't the only problem, it will just keep happening.

 

[Dark Jedi]

Why the hell do unions get all the blame? Excuse me, but for each and every one of the examples brought up in this thread, some management moron AGREED to the union demands. Did the UAW get out of line? Sure did, and management agreed to let them. Every time. Are teachers unions preventing incompetents from being fired? Yup. And school boards agreed to it.

The problem isn't just unions, it is people on the other side of the table not doing their jobs. Unions don't have some unholy power to force their wishes upon an unwilling partner. Lets make sure the spineless saps who didn't negotiate decent agreements with the unions get their share of the blame. Where is the resolution demanding that anyone who authorized a union contract in the last decade be immediately fired and fined for gross incompetence? Where is the effort to subject previous GM executives to clawbacks of their pension and benefits for allowing job banks to be created?

It took two to dance this tango, and until people wake up and realize that unions aren't the only problem, it will just keep happening.

Ok lets see if the company dont give in to the union demands. the union strikes and can cost the company millions due to shutdown of the plant and no production of product. So this is how the union gets it way. Most companies will give in to their outrageous demands than having work halted.

 

[cjr72]

At least with private unions the worst that happens is the company goes out of business and their non-unionized competitors replace them. A self correcting problem over time. With public unions the government can't go out of business so the taxpayer is stuck with the growing tab and shrinking government services. Even venerated Democratic president FDR, who was a strong friend of private unions, was against collective bargaining for government workers.

 

[Hangdog42]

Ok lets see if the company dont give in to the union demands. the union strikes and can cost the company millions due to shutdown of the plant and no production of product. So this is how the union gets it way. Most companies will give in to their outrageous demands than having work halted.

Please explain the difference between millions lost due to a strike and millions lost due to a stupid labor agreement.

The management and the board have a legal duty to look out for the interest of the shareholders, and if they are agreeing to demands that will bankrupt the company, then they are very negligent in that duty.

OH! But wait! Management is rewarded based on quarterly results, so it is in their personal interest to agree to anything a union demands so they get their bonuses. That way when the company goes bankrupt, they will already have their slice of the pie.

So if management are incentivized to drive the company into the ground, why should labor behave any differently? Face it, weak, greedy, spineless management shares just as much of the blame as the unions do.

With public unions the government can't go out of business so the taxpayer is stuck with the growing tab and shrinking government services.

Again, whose fault is it that spineless government officials bow to unreasonable demands? If people elected officials who actually said no to unaffordable ideas we wouldn't be in this position. Like with private unions, the problem isn't collective bargaining, the problem is officials agreeing to unaffordable or unreasonable demands because of their own short-term self serving interests.

 

[Dark Jedi]

Please explain the difference between millions lost due to a strike and millions lost due to a stupid labor agreement.

The management and the board have a legal duty to look out for the interest of the shareholders, and if they are agreeing to demands that will bankrupt the company, then they are very negligent in that duty.

OH! But wait! Management is rewarded based on quarterly results, so it is in their personal interest to agree to anything a union demands so they get their bonuses. That way when the company goes bankrupt, they will already have their slice of the pie.

So if management are incentivized to drive the company into the ground, why should labor behave any differently? Face it, weak, greedy, spineless management shares just as much of the blame as the unions do.



Again, whose fault is it that spineless government officials bow to unreasonable demands? If people elected officials who actually said no to unaffordable ideas we wouldn't be in this position. Like with private unions, the problem isn't collective bargaining, the problem is officials agreeing to unaffordable or unreasonable demands because of their own short-term self serving interests.

You must be in a union.

Union official are as corrupt as the corporate management counterpart.

 

[cjr72]

Again, whose fault is it that spineless government officials bow to unreasonable demands? If people elected officials who actually said no to unaffordable ideas we wouldn't be in this position. Like with private unions, the problem isn't collective bargaining, the problem is officials agreeing to unaffordable or unreasonable demands because of their own short-term self serving interests.

Why are you so hung up on fault? From what I read in Wisconsin the concessions to the public unions began in the 1950's. I suppose a Wisconsin Governer's body from the 1950's could be exhumed and flogged in a public square but where will that leave today's taxpayers?