State: Concealed carry bill advances!!

[Slug]

Allow me to interject with a reminder from the Guidelines for this particular forum, with the most important points highlighted:

Although emotions can run high when debating something that you feel strongly about, remember that you are not debating someone else's intelligence (or lack thereof), background or location, but rather the topic itself and their position on the topic. For best results try to back up your assertions with some sort of evidence, and also be prepared to have others find evidence against your assertions and shoot holes in what you have said.

Personal attacks will just get threads closed or worse, so avoid attacking the messenger and stick to attacking the message. Infraction-able offenses are very gray in these types of threads so please stay as respectful as possible. We will try to just close the threads when out of hand.. but if members get too crazy-rude infractions will be passed out like normal.

Thanks for reading.... now on with the debate!

 

[jwp1223]

I really don't know why Europeans or who ever get in debates with Americans. They have absolutely no idea what is going on in the states other than watching the news. They wouldn't last 5 minutes in one of the worst parts of Memphis, TN or Gary, Indiana, or Camden, New Jersey. They should just continue on living in there bubble.

 

[JimmyRayBob]

No I totally understand its people like you that looks for a fight to pull that gun. I fear the ones like you over the criminals carrying. I am all for the right to bear arms and to have a CWP but to many people are not mature enough to handle a CWP.

You honestly are more afraid of a law abiding citizen carrying a weapon than a criminal carrying a weapon???? I don't understand that.

 

[byteware]

This is the type of person that dont need a gun period. Someone seen one to many westerns.

The person that jumped you was he unarmed?

The type of person who would defend themselves doesn't need a gun? Wow.

9/10 times the person robbing you already has his gun out. So by the time you fiddle with trying to get it out. BANG your dead. Your still a victim.

9 times out of 10 a gun isn't used by the assailant, a knife is... knives are easier to justify having to the police, and easier to ditch when you need to get rid of them. This means that they have to get in close before they are a threat, giving you plenty of time to prepare, if you are aware of your surroundings.

So you pull your gun out first and you just broke the law.

Pulling out a gun when you erroneously perceive a threat is not against the law... Unless you keep erroneously seeing EVERYTHING as a threat.

this statement is what get innocent people killed.

Statements don't get innocent people killed. And in fact, you would be surprised at how extremely rare a citizen shooting another innocent citizen is...

You honestly are more afraid of a law abiding citizen carrying a weapon than a criminal carrying a weapon???? I don't understand that.

Yes. It's more of a solid belief that Guns shouldn't be carried by citizens than it is a fear of them.

People always have an irrational fear of what they do not understand.

 

[EarlyMon]

I prevented an assault on a wheelchair guy, an attempted gang rape in a park, an attempted carjacking, and an invasion burglary, to name a few, all with aid of a handgun. Assailants held for police.

Being properly trained in threat management, never fired a round in those situations - but was prepared to do so.

Never brandished a firearm, ever, without it resulting in police on scene and congrats all around.

Does the Constitution give the right to bear arms? Yes.

Does that mean that everyone should go buy, carry and operate one without any training whatsoever? Not necessarily. I especially prefer the training part - on the law, on tactics, and on consciousness.

To me, gun control means keeping it locked away safely when not carried, unholstered only when there is no other option whatsoever, a steady visual lock on the front sight, target and backdrop, the finger off full trigger contact until the point of firing, and a gentle squeeze when the last resort arrives.

Just my opinions tho.

 

[byteware]

You're a regular hero there Early...

Training is a very REAL requirement for using a handgun. We don't currently own any, but I want them in the house...

My wife is worried about the kids being in the house, but I put it to her this way:

Say we never own a handgun, and we never teach our kids about them. Then they go to someone else's house who has them, maybe isn't as responsible as we would be, and then they have access to a handgun, and no idea about how to properly deal with it.

So, she's agreed that we will have on and teach our children how to properly handle it.

She's also going to allow me to put the fear of God into my children when it comes to handling a firearm...

 

[ElasticNinja]

They should just continue on living in there bubble.

yeah the murder rate would be so much lower hear if we all had guns /sarcasm

 

[tommy_ed]

yeah the murder rate would be so much lower hear if we all had guns /sarcasm

funny you would mention that!

in the US, there are so many citizens who currently own guns that it would be impossible for the government to pass any laws banning guns altogether. That being said, allowing law-abiding citizens to carry actually lowers the crime rate, as has been proven time and time again.
If you are a criminal you're going to carry a gun whether the law permits or not. Why not allow someone to defend you against those people?

I once read a story about a bank robber in Texas. He pulled a gun out on the teller and demanded money. Then 3 different people behind him pulled out guns and stopped him. Who knows how many innocent people were saved in that scenario.

 

[EarlyMon]

The US will stop illegal guns just as soon as we stop illegal drugs - I'd have to guess they're probably all the same smugglers and/or circle of evil anyway.

byteware - if you'd like your kids to learn to avoid guns and exercise safety, contact your local police and ask if one of their officers is involved in the NRA's Eddie Eagle safety training program for kids. Usually, one is or knows who runs that program in your community.

We put our Cubs through it - no NRA introctrination, no politics - just teaching kids at their own level to stay away, get their friends away, and announce the problem to an adult. Even the most pacifistic were ok with this for their kids.

I would urge this advice on everyone with little ones. You can review the training ahead of time to see that it's true, this is about child safety, not politics.

More info here - Eddie Eagle Safety Program

It's your business to teach your kids shooting skills or not - but I think it's pretty good sense to teach them those skills only apply when under adult supervision.

Eddie Eagle teaches Step One - AVOID.

 

[Mac_Leod]

yeah the murder rate would be so much lower hear if we all had guns /sarcasm

Just look at Chicago and Washington, D.C. After their gun bans went into effect, the murder rate skyrocketed. After the bans were overturned, murder rates went down again.

Gun bans only prevent law-abiding citizens from defending themselves. Someone who's planning on breaking the law most likely won't worry about the consequences of carrying a banned gun.

 

[ElasticNinja]

Just look at Chicago and Washington, D.C. After their gun bans went into effect, the murder rate skyrocketed. After the bans were overturned, murder rates went down again.

Gun bans only prevent law-abiding citizens from defending themselves. Someone who's planning on breaking the law most likely won't worry about the consequences of carrying a banned gun.

i'm reffering to Europe
that said its probably mostly a cultural thing.. i believe its [relatively] easy to get guns in Canada too

 

[obievil]

Right, if this doesn't pass, IL will be the only state left without any sort of carry law.

Really? wow!!

 

[Slug]

i'm reffering to Europe
that said its probably mostly a cultural thing..

Cultural and legal.... many European countries allow ownership of firearms but none I can think of allow them to be carried in public and sales are very strictly regulated. Thus even the criminal element find them hard (and expensive) to come by. The situation in the US is historically very different, so making anything other than the most general comparisons is spurious.

 

[EarlyMon]

Gun bans only prevent law-abiding citizens from defending themselves. Someone who's planning on breaking the law most likely won't worry about the consequences of carrying a banned gun.

Registration was an epic fail as well.

Suppose I lived where there was registration - and I don't. I can go to jail. I have incentive to register.

Suppose a felon lived where there was registration, got a gun and didn't register. What's his penalty? Nothing, by constitutional right. Typically as a felon he already can't possess a firearm and were he to have registered it, he'd have been incriminating himself.

Effect of registration on bad guys - zero, unless you count the laughter.

 

[Spykez]

I prevented an assault on a wheelchair guy, an attempted gang rape in a park, an attempted carjacking, and an invasion burglary, to name a few, all with aid of a handgun. Assailants held for police.

Being properly trained in threat management, never fired a round in those situations - but was prepared to do so.

Never brandished a firearm, ever, without it resulting in police on scene and congrats all around.

Does the Constitution give the right to bear arms? Yes.

Does that mean that everyone should go buy, carry and operate one without any training whatsoever? Not necessarily. I especially prefer the training part - on the law, on tactics, and on consciousness.

To me, gun control means keeping it locked away safely when not carried, unholstered only when there is no other option whatsoever, a steady visual lock on the front sight, target and backdrop, the finger off full trigger contact until the point of firing, and a gentle squeeze when the last resort arrives.

Just my opinions tho.

Absolutely fabulous man I would LOVE to take training courses but I have to look into what they offer around here. What sort of classes and training have you taken? I would honestly love to get into some of those tacticle field trainings people get to do but I don't think theres any of those around here.

 

[Dark Jedi]

Absolutely fabulous man I would LOVE to take training courses but I have to look into what they offer around here. What sort of classes and training have you taken? I would honestly love to get into some of those tacticle field trainings people get to do but I don't think theres any of those around here.

Its called join the Army or Marine corps if you want tactical field training. They will be more than willing to teach you CQB and all the other stuff they do.

 

[copestag]

let me first preface my statements by saying I live in southern IL where we have no CCW and as everyone probably knows IL is, or at least to my knowledge and locally, very strict on their gun policies currently..... admittedly even though I own a few guns myself (shotguns mostly but I do own 1 handgun) I dont know a lot about what it takes to get a CCW permit in other states or what exactly the policies are regarding them

so heres my personal opinion and reasoning:

I am a strong believer in the right to own firearms..... I believe our constitution specifically gives us those rights without limit.... as someone mentioned..... and as proven last week in that church protest ruling by scotus..... you cant take away free speech just because you dont like what or how theyre saying it...... likewise you cant take away the right to have a gun just because you dont like people getting shot....... so LEGALLY speaking I think its pretty much a no brainer

however, I also have a conflicting personal opinion........ because I have owned guns my entire life and I have also known people my entire life and seen how they behave

so I guess my problem is perhaps one of not having all the facts of what you must go through to get a CCW or what type of vetting process there is...... and of course knowing the fact that even the perfect system cant prevent idiots

the problem with CCW as I see it though is quite simple.....

I could hit google right now and if I search hard enough I bet I could find at least 500 cases in the US just from the past week alone that has a headline something like "man beats restaurant worker because he put too many pickles on his hamburger" or "man beaten with a tire iron for making racist remark" or "woman assaults shop owner after being told she cant get an extra 10% discount on shoes"........ these are everyday 'normal' people who would pass a background screening and psychological evaluation but simply snap when certain circumstances arise

so my problem is this....... while I agree that the law is clear we can carry a weapon..... does the constitutional authority mean its the right thing to do? society as a whole just cant handle such a responsibility...... you can say that its a very small fraction of the population..... maybe 1% or less that this would ever happen........ but there are 300M people in the US..... do we really want an extra 3M people shot each year?........ or even in the case of me stating 500 cases of idiots last week alone..... thats 26K a year that WOULD be shot by otherwise decent folks who let their rage explode in the heat of the moment

theres just no way possible to prevent these kinds of things..... Im sure there are all kinds of statistics that show places with CCW dont have a higher incident rate etc etc........ and proper training and background checks prevent this etc etc...... but I'll flat out call BS and say that no rational thinking human being can honestly believe there is not (admittedly its probably a very miniscule number) a certain number of people who will abuse this right..... I would have to logically conclude theres a reason (other than politics) that we have these laws to begin with.....

Im not suggesting we would devolve to the days of the old west where EVERYONE is shooting each other outside of bars, thats not my point at all.... what I am suggesting is simple......

I believe we have the right...... but I also believe we have to use some common sense in creating the laws with consideration for the fact there are some real idiots out there

I dont want to walk into the corner market and get shot because I bought the last loaf of bread

yes I think the vast majority (as I said its probably a very miniscule fraction otherwise) who have a CCW would be responsible with it.....but I also think it only takes 1 bullet to kill me and no matter how hard you argue in favor or how many statistics you can find there will always be that small fraction of idiots with a CCW who will shoot you for something stupid

so lets look at some homemade hypothetical statistics....... if I can find 500 headlines from last week alone that read something like "hotel clerk beaten because maid didnt put mint on guests pillow" and then insert that the guest had a CCW and was carrying...... even if you conclude that of the small amount of people who would beat a clerk over this only a smaller amount would use the gun if they had it....... thats still a number

so out of 500 headlines maybe only 10 of them would change to use the word shot instead of beaten........ thats now 10 more people shot...... as for me personally Id rather take a beating than be shot

I truely wish we could believe in a perfect world where everyone who legally carried was always going to be responsible....... but as we live and breathe in todays society theres nobody who could logically believe that

in conclusion I will make a bold statement which summarizes my selfish opinion...... because I know me personally

I believe I should have the right to carry my pistol....... but nobody else should..... I just cant trust them

wow was just reading this post to make sure I was nonspecific and not attacking anyone..... and realized how long winded it was...... sorry for the long read

 

[Dark Jedi]

I think you hit on a good point. Its like my car can go 140 mph but is it a good idea to go 140? I would safely say 90% of the populations with a CCW will never pull their gun out in a situation. Its more of a status symbol to say yeah I got a ccw.

I saw in Va they now allow you to carry a concealed gun in to a bar. Its one of 4 states that allows this. We all know alcohol and firearms dont mix. But they dont allow drinking and driving which I find funny. They say Drinking and driving you are a danger to others but its ok to get drunk in a bar and carry a firearm. Gotta love gov.

 

[tommy_ed]

let me first preface my statements by saying I live in southern IL where we have no CCW and as everyone probably knows IL is, or at least to my knowledge and locally, very strict on their gun policies currently..... admitte............

i see what you're saying but there is a HUGE difference between beating someone up and KILLING them. HUGE difference. I think very little to none of the people who you used as an example would KILL somebody in the scenario

 

[Dark Jedi]

i see what you're saying but there is a HUGE difference between beating someone up and KILLING them. HUGE difference. I think very little to none of the people who you used as an example would KILL somebody in the scenario

I think the point he was getting at was how the person snapped and if that person had a gun it might have ended with that person using the gun.

 

[Crude]

non-biased gun control information.

Gun Control

This should quell the fires of misinformation. Running rampant in here.

 

[Martimus]

The challenge is that the same CCW argument can be made if someone snapped while driving a car with passengers. What's stopping that individual from accelerating the car to over 100mph and then aiming it towards a tree, utility pole, building, or other car?

If someone "snapped" they could quite easily pick up a tree branch, rock, baseball bat, brick, or most anything else handy and make a weapon out of it. Heck... in a bar you can make the favored movie weapon of busting the base of a beer bottle and have yourself a sharp object (and likely a hand full of glass shards)...

 

[copestag]

many people DO snap while driving and use their car as a weapon..... and many people do use whatever is around them as a weapon when they snap.... be it a stick, bottle, egg carton, wadded up toilet paper, whatever...... the point I was making is simple......

if youre in the store and snap so far out of control that give someone a beatdown....... or you pick up a bat on the playground and go after someone..... then what will you use when you have a loaded gun on your hip and snap.....

all Im saying is that if a person snaps that far out of control....... which very large numbers of people do every single day...... and now that person is carrying a gun........ they arent going to go looking for something to throw........ they arent going to simply punch a person in the face........ they are going to pull their gun and shoot someone......

and yes I pointed out this would be a small number of the total of people carrying........ but it would still be a number

think about it........ the same argument in favor of CCW could also be made for other things......

I mean after all....... I truely believe that I personally am responsible enough to own and store several nuclear ICBMs in my backyard....... I could pass any security or psychological screening you throw at me........ can you think of a single good reason I should not be allowed to have a nuclear arsenal at least as large as any nation on earth? ...... it would be a great tool for my self defense

not saying I disagree with CCW...... in fact once its legal I will probably carry..... but where exactly do we draw the lines between constitutionally legal and good old fashioned common sense


EDIT: just out of curiousity let me pose this question for those who see CCW as some sort of safety assurance or deterrent.....

in most places Ive ever lived..... and where I live now...... you can still hip holster a handgun as long as its clearly visible (with the normal exceptions like in bars, schools, etc etc)

so for those who live in such areas why do you see a need to CCW instead of just hip holster??

 

[Spykez]

I think the added benefit of conceal is no one knows you have it, it'll leave people guessing who want to mug you so they'll be a bit more cautious. Now if it was open carry people are going ot carry it in the open, gives criminals a better view on who is carrying or not.

Also with open carry, if you read abou the issues wisconsin had, an old lady called in a complaint about thinking something bad was going to happen cause 4 guys had guns, turns out she didn't know it was the law they could and told them operator to nvm cause they weren't being rude or anything, but the sheriff still ordered them arrested etc.

I just think having it concealed is better off for everyone.

 

[EarlyMon]

so for those who live in such areas why do you see a need to CCW instead of just hip holster??

Even legal, some cops frowned on them - but would you let pass.

Far prefer a hip holster for anything large, but far prefer my old shoulder holster for my snubbie - doesn't get in the way of the seatbelt.