New Budget Build

[Mehta23]

Looks like I'm gonna be helping my friend with a £500 build, mainly for normal use of office, Web browsing and games.

Some parts ill try to include :
i5 3750k
Asus mobo
4GB Corsair ram at least
We're thinking 250/500 WD HDD
60gb SSD
MS Comfort 5000

But I don't know about the lower end of gpu's... Is a 650Ti ok? Don't think there's enough money for a 660Ti.... Might have to look on the second hand market

Also I don't know if a AMD CPU or ATI gpu is worth getting...

And cases? He said he doesn't care about the aesthetics.... So just something cheap but with good features (thinking of a bottom placed Psu, good airflow) so I don't know if the CiT vantage case (£35) is worth getting - top mounted Psu surely means it'll take in warm air....

 

[Mehta23]

A new 650Ti is in our price budget, but apparently is worse than the 560Ti? :-(


Is this a good deal? MSI 560Ti for £137.

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=230913883707

There's a gigabyte 560Ti for £102/£120 too

And there are a few more 560ti's from £100-150. Sound ok?

Also there's then the question of the best 560Ti...Or if a new 650Ti is better to get (warranty)

 

[Davdi]

Have a look at Pc cases and computer cases online at X-Case. I've used their cheap cases a couple of times. This one: X-Case V12 V1211 has the PSU at the front bottom. Plenty of space inside despite small size. I'll use these again

 

[Mehta23]

Thanks. I don't really know what kind of PC my friend is looking for now, as he dismissed HD monitors, and a discrete GPU. Looks like it'll be iGPU all the way

 

[Mehta23]

Now, even though he has

 

[Mehta23]

Right. i managed to sort everything out now. Still

 

[Speed Daemon]

Right. i managed to sort everything out now. Still

 

[Mehta23]

Thanks. Any idea what I should be aiming for?
After a 2hr Skype conversation, he's gone back to the i3 pre built desktops. :-(

And now it's gone back again! PC building time.

£650 budget. Completely new build. 1TB HDD, 4 or 8GB ram, quad core + CPU, decent gpu and monitor.

Still thinking AMD? How are the FX8xxx processors in gaming?

 

[Speed Daemon]

Like I said, the top of the line AMD APU is something that you can afford. I'd start with the AMD A10-5800K APU ($129US) or FX-8350 CPU ($199US) and work from there.

While the FX CPU may put you above your budget limits, it's worth looking at the Piledriver FX CPU as an alternative to the APU. If you have really, truly need to have a NVIDIA GPU to run Cuda applications, this will let you do it. Otherwise going with the A10 makes life simple: Just get the A10-5800K and a motherboard with all the features that you need, add RAM, PSU and case and you have a top-performing computer for a budget computer price!

I went to the NewEgg (US) website and found a package that included an ASUS F2A85-M Pro mobo, 8GiB of RAM, a 1.5TB HD and case for less than $450US. You could double the RAM and HD capacity to 16GiB and 3TB respectively, and still be well within your budget.

I'm writing this on a pre-built ASUS PC that I bought for $400US, and I'm very happy with it. I can't say I would have done any better without being wasteful if I had bought and assembled the components myself. So I wouldn't overlook the ready made and bare-bones options if I was in your shoes.

 

[Speed Daemon]

How are the FX8xxx processors in gaming?

From what I've seen online they're squarely in i7 territory. Benchmarks can be misleading though, and you have to remember that you're simply not going to have the most impressive gaming box when you're on a strict budget.

I'm not a gamer, but from the chatter I get the feeling that many gamers get distracted by "bragging rights" numbers, and often lose track of where the line that separates a good value from a money pit lies.

 

[Mehta23]

Yeah. Here, the FX 8350 I think, is around the same price as a i5.

I think my friend will be doing normal word processing and browsing, and some gaming and a little bit of video editing.

I was thinking of getting a used 560Ti off eBay for around £100. I think the ati equivalent model was a bit more, so the CPU/GPU may turn out to be roughly equal in price.

I could probably just about fit in a i5 and a decent motherboard... But seeing how much cheaper some of the AMD CPU's and mobos are may allow for a Ssd!! :-D

Also, he'll be playing a bit of Borderlands 2 and might be using Vegas, so I don't know if a NVIDIA card is more worthwhile than a ATI.

 

[Speed Daemon]

Yeah...a lot of people forget that AMD invented the CPU instruction set architecture that is used with modern 64-bit operating systems and software. Why use Intel's knock-off version when you can have the real McCoy?

I want to reiterate that the APU is an excellent buy, and IME the "real" ATI GPU hardware has always been a lot more stable than NVIDIA. Because NVIDIA doesn't make its own video cards, and the quality of 3rd party video cards regardless of GPU is pretty sketchy, I've always used ATI brand video cards. Now that AMD owns ATI, this can only make things better.

If you're not building an ultimate, no cost limit gaming PC, if NVIDIA's top GPU is the fastest one this month, that's not really a good reason to buy a 3rd tier NVIDIA product when you can get a better deal with AMD/ATI. Unfortunately 99% of the hardware reviews on the web these days are heavily biased to extreme computer builders, and aren't helpful at all to 99% of the computer users who don't care about having the biggest FPS number to brag about. Sad to say that this is yet another place where most buyers have become dupes of the same kind of marketing hype that sells lots of Rolex watches to people who really don't need them. It's fine if you have unlimited funds, of course, but...

 

[Mehta23]

I saw the AMD A10-5800K APU on amazon. £98. How good would this be for gaming?

Seeing how it's £60 less than a i5 and amd socket motherboards are cheaper is starting to look good. But isn't everything using AM3 sockets now?

For roughly the same price I can get the FX 8130? - the 6 core one. 8 core fx 8120 is £115. Would getting discrete graphics help/ be necessary with any of these CPU's or is it not similar to Intel Integrated Graphics... If you see what I mean.

 

[Mehta23]

Brief Aside -

http://www.waeplus.co.uk/product/1976895/AMD-Radeon-HD-7970-OEM---3-GB-GDDR5---PC

Stuff like this makes my wonder why I didn't research deeper into actual non fan boy ati vs nvidia. My 670 FTW SIGNATURE 2 was £310. This 7970 looks like a better deal, even if it is oem. :-(

And I just looked at a comparison between the 670/80 and then 7970. I feel sad now :-(

Also, as you know, my 670 is in for a RMA. If it doesn't get replaced / replacement isn't good, should I just sell the card / try to refund it and buy

1. Another 670 card
2. A cheaper 660Ti
3.7970
4. I'm getting too far ahead of my self and i should be patient.

 

[Speed Daemon]

I'm afraid that I can't give you an informed idea about gaming, as I'm not a gamer, and I've never used the APU myself. But what I do know may help:

AMD differs from Intel in that AMD has been using HyperThansport in place of an old-fashioned front side bus. AMD also put the memory controller in the CPU die long before Intel copied that trick. What AMD APUs lack in benchmark numbers is made up by using this wicked fast local bus in conjunction with an on-die GPU is graphics and multimedia I/O that a PCIe graphics card rig can't keep up with. What the AMD APU offers is much more than mere integrated graphics; it's the fastest possible way to take advantage of the GPU's calculating power.

Yes, the FX CPU line offers more CPU cores, and there are PCIe attached GPUs with more cores, but it's not that simple, especially now that more and more applications are utilizing the GPU to do things that were traditionally done by a CPU. All the cores in the world wouldn't matter if you saturate the PCIe link! IMO the HT bus one place where AMD still has Intel beat. Intel has come out with its own version of HT, but it's only available on the most costly Intel CPUs.

The bottom line is that the AMD APU using HT is a very potent package. Don't let the price fool you. Yes, it's cheaper to make, but it's also great for performance! You can get bigger core counts by buying the FX series and using a PCIe video card, but as separate parts they aren't going to communicate nearly as fast. Using brute force strength of numbers may yield better benchmarks, but I don't know if real-world performance would be increased enough to justify the high price.

I'm someone who owns way too many computers and computer parts. If I had a graphics card on RMA I'd use it to upgrade one of my existing machines, whether it needed it or not. In your case, if you don't have a use for it right away, getting your money back is the best choice, as the card could be ancient by the time you finally get to use it. OTOH you might not have any choice other than taking a replacement. So you're probably best to find out what your options are, and be prepared to use or sell the replacement 670, depending on what the RMA policy is.

 

[Mehta23]

AMD, now, looks like such a better deal!

I don't really understand what you mean by if i have a use for the 670..?

Edit : also, I feel like I could've saved a lot of money if I didn't adopt the '£20 more? What the heck, I'll buy it' idea.
I suppose, at least I know so much more now, than before nd when I need to upgrade (hopefully in more than 3yrs) ill be able to get the right parts for the right prices. :-D

 

[Speed Daemon]

AMD, now, looks like such a better deal!

Yes, AMD is clearly the way to go for the best deal. Since AMD emerged as a serious competitor to Intel starting with their K6 line back in 1997, the title for the fastest CPU that money can buy has gone back and forth between AMD and Intel. But the top of the line CPUs command HUGE price premiums, often 2-4x that of the next lower model! If you rule out the seriously expensive models (Extreme, Opteron, Xeon), which most people do, and settle for up to only the 2nd or 3rd fastest CPU on earth, the maths change. Overall, AMD has a lot more "bang for the buck" than Intel, while still offering performance levels that doesn't need any excuses.

When it comes to the GPU segment, things are murkier. The same seesaw thing is going on between AMD and NVIDIA having the fastest GPU that money can buy. It's even more competitive than with AMD vs. Intel on CPUs. And just like the CPU market, once you step down from the top of the line, bleeding edge products, the maker of the best product for you isn't always the same one that makes the world's fastest GPU.

I don't really understand what you mean by if i have a use for the 670..?

I'm not that well informed about how many computers you have in your household, or your particular function on taking care of them. I gathered that you had planned on using the 670 card that's being returned on the system that you're building. If that's the case, and you decide to go with the AMD APU, you're not going to need the 670 for that computer, so (at least to me) the question is "what to do with the 670 card now?" Maybe I misunderstood. I was close to being ready to go to bed when I wrote that, and really didn't feel up to looking back to see the back story.

Edit : also, I feel like I could've saved a lot of money if I didn't adopt the '

 

[alostpacket]

Step 1) Acquire TARDIS from Doctor Who. :dalek:
Step 2) Travel to future and acquire future computer. :captain:
Step 3) return with future proofed computer! :car:
Step 4) Discover future computer incompatible with today's games cguru:

 

[Mehta23]

Ah ah ah.

Thanks for yet another really informative answer.

The 670 is for my build. This current budget build is for a friend. Just helping him get some information.

I told him about the AMD/APU stuff, but he said that some quick research showed that i5 was slightly better and would apparently last longer than a FX.

I've just realised that he didn't compare the A10 apu. good thing that he hasn't ordered anything yet. I'll get back to you regarding what he'll have chosen. But I think he may opt for the i5... And try to squeeze everything into the budget.

Thanks again!

Also, the last paragraph in your previous answer before the tardis one... That is exactly what I have encountered. It's why this budget build is harder.

One more thing : would a AMD CPU and a nvidia gpu work ok, or is it better to get an Intel CPU for that.

 

[Mehta23]

After a quick look on the A10 APU vs i5 it seems like if I can afford to get the i5 I should.

Another post said a i5 should be taken if you have high end graphics. Reckon a 560Ti is high end - ish?

Told my friend to build a list of parts to find out our rough overall cost. Then I'll know how much money we'll have to allocate to certain parts.

600w psu sound big enough?

 

[Speed Daemon]

The 670 is for my build. This current budget build is for a friend. Just helping him get some information.

OK, now I see. Two different concurrent builds.

I told him about the AMD/APU stuff, but he said that some quick research showed that i5 was slightly better and would apparently last longer than a FX.

LOL...Last longer? That's a new one! As long as you don't abuse the part, it should last longer than its usefulness. But I think it's a good sign that your friend really wants the i5. You might as will give him his wish, rather than risk having him complain forever about (probably imagined) shortcomings of an AMD system. Your friendship is more important than getting the very best deal.

Another post said a i5 should be taken if you have high end graphics. Reckon a 560Ti is high end - ish?

I don't see the i5 as a "high end CPU". It's in between the i3 and the i7. The i3 is decidedly "budget/mobile". The i5 is the most I've seen in laptops, but for a desktop the i7 is clearly the high end product.

I suppose that using a more high end graphics card is one way to beef up a cheap i5 PC a bit, but I don't think at all that the i5 commands any need for a costly graphics card. If you have a $1000US+ Extreme Edition i7, then sure, get a $1000US+ graphics card to match. But for an i5? Meh.

One more thing : would a AMD CPU and a nvidia gpu work ok, or is it better to get an Intel CPU for that.

You can mix and match graphics cards as you please. The ASUS pre-built 6-core AMD computer that I'm using to manage my TiVo videos has a motherboard with onboard ATI/AMD graphics, and came with an ATI/AMD graphics card installed. I swapped in a NVIDIA card so the transcoding software I'm using can use its CUDA API to speed things up. No problems at all so far.

 

[alostpacket]

You might as will give him his wish, rather than risk having him complain forever about (probably imagined) shortcomings of an AMD system.

This here is sage advice.
















(But I still prefer my TARDIS method).

 

[NYCHitman1]

By the way, if you want to save a few bucks - you could look for a different OEM for the mobo. Asus tends to charge high rates, but their products are solid. I'm personally a huge fan of Gigabyte and AsRock.

 

[Mehta23]

LOL...Last longer? That's a new one! As long as you don't abuse the part, it should last longer than its usefulness.

Yep. Although I didn't read the article/forum post myself, apparently Intel CPU's require less power, and run cooler, so that they'll last longer. Obviously, I wondered about the huge difference in the time any CPU will last, and the time you'd use it before an upgrade...

But I think it's a good sign that your friend really wants the i5. You might as will give him his wish, rather than risk having him complain forever about (probably imagined) shortcomings of an AMD system. Your friendship is more important than getting the very best deal.

TBH I don't think he knows what he exactly wants. At first he was showing me these really bad laptops, and then when I introduced the idea that sometimes dekstops can be both more powerful and cheaper, he then sent mye links to desktops for £300 tyat had i3's, and a AMD CPU that was inferior to a Pentium!

I suppose that using a more high end graphics card is one way to beef up a cheap i5 PC a bit, but I don't think at all that the i5 commands any need for a costly graphics card. If you have a $1000US+ Extreme Edition i7, then sure, get a $1000US+ graphics card to match. But for an i5? Meh.

That's why I asked. FOr him, the most he'd be spending is £150. So for that, you could get a 560TI, a 650Ti, or maybe a Radeon equivalent.

You can mix and match graphics cards as you please. No problems at all so far.

Good. That's what I may be doing on my own expensive build

By the way, if you want to save a few bucks - you could look for a different OEM for the mobo. Asus tends to charge high rates, but their products are solid. I'm personally a huge fan of Gigabyte and AsRock.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out. The reason I thought about getting the asus was that I liked the extra features it gives like the AI suite. I assume Gigabyte has it's own features that a very similar.

I'll have a look at some Gigabyte boards .

 

[Speed Daemon]

Yep. Although I didn't read the article/forum post myself, apparently Intel CPU's require less power, and run cooler, so that they'll last longer.

That sort of marketing hype conveniently ignores the fact that what made it possible for the chip to draw less power in the first place, smaller on-chip circuitry, makes the entire chip all the more fragile and more susceptible to damage from heat and other things. Before long we'll have chips with logic gates that are made up of a couple of molecules. When you get to that scale, all it takes is an energetic cosmic particle to knock out a molecule and bork the whole chip. As we approach the quantum limits of circuit density, premature failures will occur more and more often. But today, as long as you use adequate cooling and don't overclock, the CPU should last longer than it's useful. Intel CPUs still require plenty of cooling, AMD's slightly larger microarchitecture actually makes it more robust than Intel.

TBH I don't think he knows what he exactly wants. At first he was showing me these really bad laptops, and then when I introduced the idea that sometimes dekstops can be both more powerful and cheaper, he then sent mye links to desktops for