DX Camera/Camcorder, don't believe the "critics"

bgillyjcu said:

more X pics coming to my blog this weekend! Should be a fun night of good food and beers to take pictures of!

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I have a buddy that lives in Cleveland. Been to many of the spots you have on your blog. I LOVE Fatheads.

On topic: took this on my Droid X: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj9Ig-XjYs8

It's a video. Sorry for the shaky-cam, I was being bumped. I think the image quality came out great.

I believe people have different expectations for and differing sensitivities to picture quality. Some see the vibrant colors of the X photos and compare them to lesser quality cameras not realizing how much noise is actually produced. While noise is fairly noticeable, unless you really know what you're looking for it can be overlooked esp when the colors pop. If you look at the X pics sized 40% and up it can really begin to mar the picture quality. Even so, most probably aren't picky enough to care about it. If you research digital photo noise and how to clean it up you can get a good idea of the before and after affect to see just how much cleaner a picture can look.This isn't to say the X camera isn't decent enough, but it could be better. Just my 2 cents opinion.

Droid X camera is awesome! It just takes some practice. The people who review these phones rarely take time to learn them so you can't depend on them. Low light shots aren't that good at a distance but close up shots remain excellent even in total darkness!

Here's an example of digital noise below. Click on the thumbnail, then click on the actual picture to enlarge.

If you look at the entire side of the ship to the left, at the barrels, or at the tourist with the camera (her shirt, pants, hair, cheeks) ... you can see white or black "snow" or blotches depending on the color. This is the digital noise involved in processing the photo, even though the picture itself has accurate colors and is generally clear (remember to enlarge the picture -- if you only look at the compressed size you can't see the noise, which is why you can't see it in some of the posted photos):







The next photo has been touched up so it's not quite as evident. However, if you look at the wall to the right of the picture, or at the left area of the sky (away from the sunlight), or at the dark part of the sand where the sand trucks drove over it, you can see the digital noise:

All taken with the X, NO TOUCH UPS, only resized:

darreno1 said:

All taken with the X, NO TOUCH UPS, only resized:

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Ok, I assume you don't believe the X produces noise by your comment. Shall I point it out to you from your pics? Granted, reducing the size reduces the visible noise quite a bit, so that is "touching it up" in a sense.

That said, people don't need to be defensive about the fact that the X produces noise (only that it's a bit too much of it). Even professional photogs use noise-reduction filtering for high-end cameras. It's simply an artifact of digital photography, and some cameras handle it better than others. Here's an app that some photogs use:

Picturecode.com

Still, the X is "noisier" than some others.

crboone said:

Ok, I assume you don't believe the X produces noise by your comment. Shall I point it out to you from your pics? Granted, reducing the size reduces the visible noise quite a bit, so that is "touching it up" in a sense.

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You need to take a chill pill my friend. My post has nothing to do with your post but to illustrate the X can take great pics which is the gist of this thread.

And BTW, at 50-60% of their size, these pics still look quite acceptable considering the source. And I know a fair amount about photography as it's a hobby of mine. Anybody who expect this tiny phone sensor to produce acceptable quality blown up to 100% is smoking something. They don't need to be. When I want excellent results I turn to my Nikon DLSR. But... I will say this, I have yet to see another cell camera match the color accuracy of the X. The iShit 4 doesn't even come close.

darreno1 said:

You need to take a chill pill my friend. My post has nothing to do with your post but to illustrate the X can take great pics which is the gist of this thread.

And BTW, at 50-60% of their size, these pics still look quite acceptable considering the source. And I know a fair amount about photography as it's a hobby of mine. Anybody who expect this tiny phone sensor to produce acceptable quality blown up to 100% is smoking something. They don't need to be. When I want excellent results I turn to my Nikon DLSR. But... I will say this, I have yet to see another cell camera match the color accuracy of the X. The iShit 4 doesn't even come close.

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I gotcha. The reason for my response is because the thread is about not believing the critics concerning the camera. Not that I'm one of the critics on the internet that they're talking about, but I have been a little critical of the X camera on the forums. And you responded "NO TOUCH UPS" which followed my previous post where I specifically mentioned touching up a pic. So, in all fairness, I wanted to balance it out a little -- the images are very nice, but also a little disappointing. I agree with you concerning the color, for sure. But my wife's 5mpx Casio phone doesn't produce nearly the noise as our camera (I compared quite a few pictures from our vacation -- taken of the same things), and for that, admittedly, I'm disappointed.

My point is that some of the critics have a fair argument. But maybe my expectations were too high.

Time to move on and just start posting some of my vacation pics on the other thread ...

crboone said:

Time to move on and just start posting some of my vacation pics on the other thread ...

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No problem, and I'd love to see some of your pics. And your wife's if possible to compare. I've been very impressed with the X in conditions with good lighting.

I've noticed that the phone cameras that produce little noise, do so at the expense of detail even though the pic may look more pleasing. Everyone's tastes are different but I prefer to have a little noise if it means more detail. If and when I want to dispense with some noise later on, I'd do it in an app that gives me much more control like Photoshop. I attached one pic at 1700 pixels across. The forum isn't letting me attach any more for some reason. To me that noise level is very acceptable.

darreno1 said:

No problem, and I'd love to see some of your pics. And your wife's if possible to compare. I've been very impressed with the X in conditions with good lighting.

I've noticed that the phone cameras that produce little noise, do so at the expense of detail even though the pic may look more pleasing. Everyone's tastes are different but I prefer to have a little noise if it means more detail. If and when I want to dispense with some noise later on, I'd do it in an app that gives me much more control like Photoshop. I attached one pic at 1700 pixels across. The forum isn't letting me attach any more for some reason. To me that noise level is very acceptable.

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Yes, the X is a little sharper/more detailed, but not always. I've cleaned up the noise on most of my pics already, but I do have a few examples left.

Here's one where we were on opposite sides of our son taking the same picture. The first one is mine taken with the X. Notice especially the blue pump, and his shirt and face -- very splotchy even though the overall detail is good. It's a little shady but otherwise there is bright sunshine (click on the actual pic to enlarge and show detail):




The next one is her picture on the other side taken with the Casio. In this case it is less detailed, but again, that's not always so. But the noise level is very low. For direct comparison, look at the pump, shirt and face (this isn't really the best example because the background does have a little more grain here):




Here's a cleaned up version of the X pic. Notice the greatly reduced noise on the pump, shirt and face, though the shoulder is still a bit grainy:




You are definitely correct that reducing the noise reduces the detail. For me, when the noise is THIS bad I prefer to smooth it out slightly at the expense of the greater detail. Too much noise is like turning the music up so loud that it begins to distort, even though the dynamic range is better with the volume up. So I am surprised that the X doesn't handle that better than it does. If you look at the thread comparing the HTC Incredible vs the X cameras, it is possible to have clearer pics than this without having to clean them up.

Looks like the X's point of focus on that first pic was on your wife and her surrounding area. Your son and the pump looks a little out of focus. But you want to know the truth? I still like the X's pic more. It has better detail and more vibrant colors.

Thanks for posting those BTW.

Do you strictly use the default app? I prefer Camera 360. I believe there is a trial version in the Market. If you haven't tried it already, I'd recommend it. Let me know what you think. Be sure to set all the settings to the highest quality. I've gotten very crisp, low noise pics with that app.

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/9001/c36020100926184237.jpg

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7564/c36020100927163736big.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/1040/20101002144306527.jpg

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/8159/20101001173731126.jpg

darreno1 said:

Looks like the X's point of focus on that first pic was on your wife and her surrounding area. Your son and the pump looks a little out of focus. But you want to know the truth? I still like the X's pic more. It has better detail and more vibrant colors.

Thanks for posting those BTW.

Do you strictly use the default app? I prefer Camera 360. I believe there is a trial version in the Market. If you haven't tried it already, I'd recommend it. Let me know what you think. Be sure to set all the settings to the highest quality. I've gotten very crisp, low noise pics with that app.

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/9001/c36020100926184237.jpg

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7564/c36020100927163736big.jpg

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I'm using Vignette. Is Camera 360 a better app?

I think once you reduce the light the slightest amount the X gets noisier, and my son isn't in direct sunlight. I noticed as the day progressed beyond 5pm my pictures in Williamsburg and the Botanical Gardens grew increasingly worse as well.

But even in direct sunlight the Incredible produced sharper pics, so I still think Moto must have used lesser quality hardware. Unless there's some trade-off that has to occur to obtain the better color accuracy.

crboone said:

I'm using Vignette. Is Camera 360 a better app?

I think once you reduce the light the slightest amount the X gets noisier, and my son isn't in direct sunlight. I noticed as the day progressed beyond 5pm my pictures in Williamsburg and the Botanical Gardens grew increasingly worse as well.

But even in direct sunlight the Incredible produced sharper pics, so I still think Moto must have used lesser quality hardware. Unless there's some trade-off that has to occur to obtain the better color accuracy.

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Yes, IMO, camera 360 is the better app and produces sharper pics - either because it focuses better or does some post-processing.

I posted some more links after you started your reply. From my research the incredible/X/Evo all use the same image sensor. Not sure if there are any differences in the lenses though. I do know that the color output on the Evo/Incredible has a more washed out look and the Incredible has issues with blue so there must be differences in how the image is processed or captured. Anyway I'm pretty sure the Evo/Incredible and maybe some others are sharpening the pics during post-processing.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3373/c36020101007123439.jpg


Taken at night, not the best, but certainly not bad for a low light shot:

http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/822/c36020101008211156.jpg

darreno1 said:

Yes, IMO, camera 360 is the better app and produces sharper pics - either because it focuses better or does some post-processing.

I posted some more links after you started your reply. From my research the incredible/X/Evo all use the same image sensor. Not sure if there are any differences in the lenses though. I do know that the color output on the Evo/Incredible has a more washed out look and the Incredible has issues with blue so there must be differences in how the image is processed or captured. Anyway I'm pretty sure the Evo/Incredible and maybe some others are sharpening the pics during post-processing.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3373/c36020101007123439.jpg

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Yeah, I agree about the washed out colors. But I downloaded a couple of the X pics from the comparison thread just to see if I could make them appear as sharp (for direct comparison), but I could not. That why I wonder if the lens is better rather than the software processing.

I'm admittedly picky about this. On your Red Lobster pic, for example, the sky and the purple van look really snowy, and some smaller areas. I really think this is the crux of the criticism about the X, which isn't completely unfounded.

Ok, I won't beat the dead horse any longer. It is what it is.

crboone said:

Yeah, I agree about the washed out colors. But I downloaded a couple of the X pics from the comparison thread just to see if I could make them appear as sharp (for direct comparison), but I could not. That why I wonder if the lens is better rather than the software processing. If noise is simply a trade-off of having more detail then that should be the case with the Incredible pics too, regardless of the color problem. But they are just sharper, not noisier.

I'm admittedly picky about this. On your Red Lobster pic, for example, the sky and the purple van look really snowy, and some smaller areas. I really think this is the crux of the criticism about the X, which isn't completely unfounded.

Ok, I won't beat the dead horse any longer. It is what it is.

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Can you post the incredible pic or pics so I can look at them? Also 'really snowy' for you is different from 'really snowy' for me. I guess when it comes to picture quality, some things are definitely subjective. IMO, there is lot more to picture quality than just noise. The question is, what aspect do you put priority on? And unless you have very good equipment there is no free lunch.

darreno1 said:

Can you post the incredible pic or pics so I can look at them? Also 'really snowy' for you is different from 'really snowy' for me. I guess when it comes to picture quality, some things are definitely subjective. IMO, there is lot more to picture quality than just noise. The question is, what aspect do you put priority on? And unless you have very good equipment there is no free lunch.

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I agree. That's why some are happier with the X camera than others. But I understand what you're saying -- why complain when it's this good? Maybe my expectations were too high regarding the noise issue, esp with such good color balance. But it's still a valid issue nonetheless.

The comparison thread is:

Droid X vs. Droid Incredible 8MP Camera Showdown

It's a very excellent thread by Vihzel with some nice shots, highlighting the clarity vs color of the 2 phones.

Oh yeah, I remember that thread a while back. Good info, but it's going on 3 months old. I'm sure Vihzel has gotten better with the X (as I have) and has probably experimented with other apps. So I think it's time for a revisit .

Lots more pics posted today on the blog. Click on the pics to see them full size.