Does Israel CONTROLL the USA?

shadowninty said:

Crude...
Neantherthals?
If they were Christians you wouldnt say that

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They are. (Albeit in small proportion)

Palestinian Christians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'll ask again, since no on seems to answer.

Droiduzr2:
What is the difference between how Israel was founded and how pretty much any other country was founded? Weren't they all founded through violence and conquering? Why does this make Israel a hostile force occupying the land, but not the U.S., Canada, Turkey, Iran, etc?

Afterall -- Kurdistan is occupied by Turkey, Iran, Syria, Iraq. Native American land is occupied by the U.S. and Canada.

etc.

zauper said:

Yes, he said that he demanded certain concessions in order to agree to the Oslo accord, which allowed him to undermine it.

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What he actually said...

So you agree that the premise of the thread is wrong, because Israel doesn't control the U.S?

I agree, the lobby exerts substantial influence. That is distinct from control (the argument of the thread, read the title).

Yes, he said that he wouldn't give a concession (the Hebron agreement) unless he got one in exchange (that allowed him to undercut the Oslo agreement). It's not uncommon.

However, the same could be said of most lobbies. Does PhRMA control the U.S. because it exerts substantial influence over drug policy?

p.s. I'll ask you the same thing: what's the difference between the land that Israel "stole" and the land that the U.S. "stole"? What about turkey? iran? iraq? etc.

zauper said:

What is the difference between how Israel was founded and how pretty much any other country was founded?

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When did their messiah return to bring them out of exile?

Zionism, by advocating a political and military end to the Jewish exile, denies the very essence of our Diaspora existence. We are in exile by Divine Decree and may emerge from exile solely via Divine Redemption. All human efforts to alter a metaphysical reality are doomed to end in failure and bloodshed. History has clearly borne out this teaching.

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SOURCE

How much blood has been shed so far.

X10iUser said:

When did their messiah return to bring them out of exile?

SOURCE

How much bled has been shed so far.

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Israel was not founded because of the return of the messiah. It was founded, you know, through violence. i.e. the conquering of a land. The same way the U.S. was founded. The same way Canada was founded. The same way Spain, France, the UK, etc, were founded.

I'm not sure you understand the question.

zauper said:

So you agree that the premise of the thread is wrong, because Israel doesn't control the U.S?

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No, because to have a large influence over something can be likened to controlling it. Try not to get up on the word "control".
p.s. I'll ask you the same thing: what's the difference between the land that

zauper said:

Israel "stole" and the land that the U.S. "stole"? What about turkey? iran? iraq? etc.

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See last response.

zauper said:

Israel was not founded because of the return of the messiah.

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Yes I know, the point your missing is their religion states that it's only when the messiah returns that they can be brought out of exile because "All human efforts to alter a metaphysical reality are doomed to end in failure and bloodshed. History has clearly borne out this teaching."

I actually thought the USA was controlled by Beijing.

Israel has no intention of kissing and make up-ing
They will continue to steal more of the West Bank
Gaza is a ticking time bomb

I say sanctions - of course the US wont judging by you guys
And the EU wont because of Germany
Either way, Irish government strong dislikes Israel (esp after they attacked the aid convoy)

X10iUser said:

No, because to have a large influence over something can be likened to controlling it. Try not to get up on the word "control".
p.s. I'll ask you the same thing: what's the difference between the land that
See last response.

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The difference doesn't exist. All nations were founded through conflict and are defined, at least in part, through conflict. Criticizing the way Israel was founded, and not respecting them as a nation fundamentally calls into question all other nations and is remarkably hypocritical.

I disagree. Having a large influence is not the same as control. You also haven't answered my question about the distinction between their lobby and other lobbies, for example.

Control = I can make them do what I want. Large influence = I can influence the track that they're on, or find ways to undercut things I dislike with minimal consequences.

Do you see the difference?

X10iUser said:

Yes I know, the point your missing is their religion states that it's only when the messiah returns that they can be brought out of exile because "All human efforts to alter a metaphysical reality are doomed to end in failure and bloodshed. History has clearly borne out this teaching."

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What is your point? Israel is a country. What does this have to do with the way nationstates are founded?

zauper said:

What is your point? Israel is a country. What does this have to do with the way nationstates are founded?

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Still missing the point, when you can differentiate between zionism and Judaism you might start to understand.

zauper said:

However, the same could be said of most lobbies. Does PhRMA control the U.S. because it exerts substantial influence over drug policy?

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We are controlled by Israel, the Oil Companies, Big Corporations, Unions, etc, etc, so on and so forth.

No wonder we can't seem to pick a single direction we've are being controlled by ALL these different groups... lol

@X10: Regarding the pictures... There is a bit of a difference that you are glossing over.

Nazi Germany was rounding people up and removing their rights in order to exterminate the Jews.

Israel isn't rounding people up, but they do have intense security measures, mostly because of the proclivity of people to blow themselves up killing as many people as possible.

Israel is in a perpetual state of war. And whether or not THEY want it resolved, no one else does either. Neither Hezbollah nor Hamas are going to stop attacking Israel, regardless of any good gestures on Israel's part.

byteware said:

Nazi Germany was rounding people up and removing their rights in order to exterminate the Jews.

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No doubt, but what they do illustrate is that the manner in which the Palestinians are being treated is not too different to how the nazis treated the Jews. Sure they might not be leading them to gas chambers, but they are certainly treating them like animals, stealing their land on a daily basis, destroying their homes on a daily basis, and making life for many quite unbearable.

Those that say the Government of Israel is just defending themselves clearly don't grasp the severity of how the Palestinians are being, and have been treat for many years, and don't seem to think that they too have a right to defend their selves.

X10iUser said:

Still missing the point, when you can differentiate between zionism and Judaism you might start to understand.

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I can differentiate.

I don't see what zionism -- a belief -- has to do with the external legitimacy of Israel.

There are arguments to be made that Israel is an illegitimate "Jewish state", but that has nothing to do with whether or not it is a country.

zauper said:

I can differentiate.

I don't see what zionism -- a belief -- has to do with the external legitimacy of Israel.

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Because it's on a belief the country was founded in the first place, and their religious belief was turned into a political one to form it, and continue to use the political belief to do what they do today.

X10iUser said:

No doubt, but what they do illustrate is that the manner in which the Palestinians are being treated is not too different to how the nazis treated the Jews.

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Quite a bit different, actually.

X10iUser said:

Sure they might not be leading them to gas chambers, but they are certainly treating them like animals, stealing their land on a daily basis, destroying their homes on a daily basis, and making life for many quite unbearable.

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Being killed by them on a daily basis. Oh wait, that wasn't the point you were trying to make...

What measures have they taken against the Palestinians that haven't been a reactionary protectionist measure, that you disagree with?

X10iUser said:

Those that say the Government of Israel is just defending themselves clearly don't grasp the severity of how the Palestinians are being, and have been treat for many years, and don't seem to think that they too have a right to defend their selves.

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Yes, just as Nazi Germany had a right to defend themselves, so do the Palestinians. However, if they would cease aggressions, more would get done, than otherwise.

You have to be insane to equate extermination with defending them selves. Seriously? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYTPR2kOh0E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gi2z6sRSnQ to the driver :"hey man nice shot"

shadowninty said:

@ Martimus, I'm afraid you are wrong om this one
The Israeli-Palestinian is one which has changed very much in my eyes
I was very Pro-Israeli
Then I did some research
The Israeli government will never try to make peace with Palestine as long as right wing extremists have the vote
Never

Israeli has screwed over the Palestinians from Year 1 of its foundation

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Sadly you seem to be overlooking volumes of facts Shadow... You might want to read a bit more on the subject.

In 1947, partition was approved for the state of Israel.

On May 15, 1947, the state of Israel was attacked by the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Transjordan, Leganon, and Iraq with the sole intent to destroy the fledgling state of Israel.

On May 15, 1947, Azzam Pasha (the Secretary-General of the Arab League) was quoted as saying "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades"."

The Transjordanian Prime Minister wrote to the United Nation and stated "Our position is clear, and has been proclaimed on every occasion. It is never to allow the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine and to exclude partition. And our object is to cooperate with the other Arab States in her deliverance. Once this aim is attained, the determination of her future status is the right and concern of her own people. Theirs alone is the last word. We have no other object or aim in view."

http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/1...57c45a3dd0d46b09802564740045cc0a?OpenDocument

In the beginning the Israeli's repeatedly asked the Arabs in the area to continue to live in the area and to help them build a nation together. The Grand Mufti of the region answered these requests with blood and violence. Israeli women and children were murdered and Arabs who sympathized with the Israeli's were also murdered.

The Israeli's didn't want, need, or ask for a war. A Jihad was handed to them by the Arab population and that Jihad continues to this day. So would you prefer the Israeli's behave like their late German ancestors and walk quietly to their deaths? All they want is a homeland of their own. All many of their Arab neighbors want is their extermination. And you complain that they combat violence with violence?

Oh and one other thing to consider, the Arab leadership that makes these decisions cares about as little about the Arab's living in the region as they do the Israeli's. In that region strength and power mean everything to them. To kill a fellow Arab in the course of taking Israel back simply makes that poor dead Arab a martyr in the eyes of the Arab leadership. To the poor dead Arab, however, they get little choice but to die.

Want an eye opening experience Shadow? Go spend some time in the Middle East! While I agree that the Israeli's don't always take the high road... the Arab leaders in that region have no qualms about following the low road.

Crude said:

You have to be insane to equate extermination with defending them selves.

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If you read what I wrote you'd see I haven't, and it's your kind of logic that's twisted what I said and meant that people defend the actions of Israel's Government.

X10iUser said:

No doubt, but what they do illustrate is that the manner in which the Palestinians are being treated is not too different to how the nazis treated the Jews. Sure they might not be leading them to gas chambers, but they are certainly treating them like animals, stealing their land on a daily basis, destroying their homes on a daily basis, and making life for many quite unbearable.

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Martimus said:

On May 15, 1947, the state of Israel was attacked by the armies of Egypt, Jordan, Transjordan, Leganon, and Iraq with the sole intent to destroy the fledgling state of Israel.

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Who was it that struck first, and did so because of the situation they had been put in?

Martimus said:

So would you prefer the Israeli's behave like their late German ancestors and walk quietly to their deaths?

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I'd prefer it if they stopped the land grab and destroying homes illegally, building illegal settlements, treating the Palestinians like animals, and gave the Palestinians their own state too.

X10iUser said:

Because it's on a belief the country was founded in the first place, and their religious belief was turned into a political one to form it, and continue to use the political belief to do what they do today.

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I think you're confused.

Zionism refers to the idea that the Jewish people should have a homeland. Zionism is not a religious movement, and there are many conservative Jews that do not agree with the location of the Jewish people being in Israel because the messiah hasn't come.

Zionism came into existence in 1897 with Herzl, following the Dreyfus affair in 1894. Zionism didn't really come to exist until the first Zionist conference in 1897.

It's worth mentioning that the war that resulted in the founding of Israel broke out because the Palestinians refused to accept a partition of the land to allow for a creation of Israel, as laid out by the UN.