Good grief, this isn't so much about radiation as it is a violation of our Constitutional rights. You really can't be this obtuse, can you?
And the way you have treated a veteran on this MB really disgusts me.
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Anyone boycotting the TSA scanners tomorrow?
- Thread starter A.Nonymous
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Good grief, this isn't so much about radiation as it is a violation of our Constitutional rights. You really can't be this obtuse, can you?
And the way you have treated a veteran on this MB really disgusts me.
Might as well close it Slug. What started out as a quality debate turned out to be a troll fest b/c a few people don't share the same sentiment.
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Whoa whoa buddy, I could care less about the radiation. It's the violation of our civil rights and the general lack of backbone in our county that's got me so pissed.
Do you run from all of your problems?
And Slug, yeah this is getting heated, but it's a hot button issue =/
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Whoa whoa buddy, I could care less about the radiation. It's the violation of our civil rights and the general lack of backbone in our county that's got me so pissed.
Do you run from all of your problems?
And Slug, yeah this is getting heated, but it's a hot button issue =/
I wouldn't see this as a problem (at least it's not my problem). Just a conversation that I no longer desire to be a part of. I respect your opinion and I have no intention to argue with you or anyone else over something I clearly don't rank high on my list of important things to do.
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oops.. meant GQ. sorrrrreeeeee!
Well, I confess to leaving out a much needed smiley; I knew what you meant and was attempting to get you to make something up ("Gentleman's Corsets" ?).
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I find this whole issue to be a joke, pat downs are common place ANYWHERE security is a primary concern. sure the body scans suck but at least you were given a choice in one or the other, if you dont want the scan get patted down simple as that! If both the scan and pat down are too much for you to handle dont fly. drive, take the bus, take a train you have a ton of other options available.
On a slightly seperate note, to me it seems like the whole boycott could do more harm than good. the employees are going to be stressed and most probably half assing their duties because of all the assholes they will have to deal with. This leaves a perfect opurtunity for some one to get something onto a plane that shouldnt be.
On a slightly seperate note, to me it seems like the whole boycott could do more harm than good. the employees are going to be stressed and most probably half assing their duties because of all the assholes they will have to deal with. This leaves a perfect opurtunity for some one to get something onto a plane that shouldnt be.
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Let's see if we can salvage it. It's sure to become a worldwide concern if the practice gains a foothold in the US.
I hear ya, and heated debate is just fine so long as it doesn't get nasty and/or personal.
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It's the type of pat down that's objectionable. The pat down is way more invasive than you'd get from a cop if you got picked up by a DUI. A cop is not going to stick his hands down your pants or feel your junk unless he has reason to believe you're concealing something there. The TSA operates under the assumption that yes, you are a terrorist and yes, you are hiding something and yes, you must prove that you are not hiding anything.
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How many planes have blown up in the US from a terrorist attack? Ever?
How many people have died traveling by air ever?
More people die traveling by car in one single year, than have died by traveling by plane in the entire history of air travel. Period.
If you would give up your freedoms to prevent such a minor chance of dying by flying... what wouldn't you give up to prevent the very real chance of dying in a car?
Let me break this down for you...
Your position is, people having their rights violated isn't worth your time, or it's justifiable to violate people's rights in this situation.
If you allow the violation of your rights for ANY REASON, then you no longer have them. All it takes for them to violate your rights, is for them to "justify" it. If you allow them to violate the rights of American citizens, then no American Citizen has that right anymore. Period.
You can't say we HAVE those rights unless there is justification for us not to. You HAVE that right, or you don't.
In your opinion, having that right isn't worth your time. It isn't worth complaining about. It isn't worth defending. Who cares if they take your rights away.
Let me explain something to you about rights. They didn't just happen. They weren't always guaranteed. They were fought for. Millions of lives were given freely so that you could have those rights. Once you give them up. Once they are gone. They will never EVER come back, without the loss of millions of lives.
Do you know what the word infringe means? It means to chip away at. To eat away a little at a time. Our rights shall not be infringed. The founding fathers weren't worried about them being taken away in one fell swoop. They worried about them being chipped away at, until they were rights in name only, and worthless to the citizens of this nation.
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They can justify violating every last one of your rights in the name of preventing you from being blown to pieces.
They can protect you best if you only go where they tell you to.
They can protect you best, if you only talk to the people they tell you that you can.
They can protect you best, if you only eat the foods they approve.
They can protect you best, if we shut down newspapers that leak out information that the terrorists could use.
They can protect you best, if no one has firearms besides the government.
If you would rather someone violate your rights than you come to harm... then you already have no rights.
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I like my life and would like to keep living it. So violate away. Not because it hasn't happen mean it wouldn't. They (not a racist comment) could be plotting right now.
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I say they just make the scanners mandatory and install them everywhere. If you don't want to be scanned, then take the train or drive. That said, TSA employees need to understand that they are service employees and that flying passengers are their customers. they need to treat the flying public in a respectful and informative manner. That is a point which seems to have been lost with a great many TSA employees and managers in airports all across this country. As I see it, if someone needs to be patted down for any reason, they should be made aware of the exact procedure, how it is going to be conducted, what their rights are and are not, and what options they have. Then it is the official doing the pat down's job to be informative while he is performing the pat down. If you need to touch someone in a sensitive place, then tell them "I apologize for the inconvenience, but I have to touch your privates now".
Also there should be well defined guidelines. this random searching simply leaves too much to the interpretation of people with dubious training at best. for example my wife recently observed that on a recent flight out of the mid west where the majority of the people in line where white, those who got pulled out of line for a manual pat down, with no explanation of why this was so, were a man who was obviously foreign, a hot chick, herself (she's a good looking asian woman) and a shirtless toddler/preschooler. Now explain to me exactly how that was determined?
also the operator stations for scanners should be placed out of sight of the walking public. As they currently are, in too many airports a casual glance from a passer by will give you a shot of what the operator is looking at on his screen and who it might be. Whether the operator gets off on watching blurry black and white images of naked people all day long, the way I see it, it's a lot like working at a strip club. It might be exciting at first, but after a while you've seen all there is to see and no longer care.
I think the real issue is that people feel that the government is over reaching and is not being forthcoming with information regarding the basis for the TSA's actions. Treat people with respect, keep them informed and be consistent in the application of your rules, and I think that you'll find a lot less resistance from the flying public.
Also there should be well defined guidelines. this random searching simply leaves too much to the interpretation of people with dubious training at best. for example my wife recently observed that on a recent flight out of the mid west where the majority of the people in line where white, those who got pulled out of line for a manual pat down, with no explanation of why this was so, were a man who was obviously foreign, a hot chick, herself (she's a good looking asian woman) and a shirtless toddler/preschooler. Now explain to me exactly how that was determined?
also the operator stations for scanners should be placed out of sight of the walking public. As they currently are, in too many airports a casual glance from a passer by will give you a shot of what the operator is looking at on his screen and who it might be. Whether the operator gets off on watching blurry black and white images of naked people all day long, the way I see it, it's a lot like working at a strip club. It might be exciting at first, but after a while you've seen all there is to see and no longer care.
I think the real issue is that people feel that the government is over reaching and is not being forthcoming with information regarding the basis for the TSA's actions. Treat people with respect, keep them informed and be consistent in the application of your rules, and I think that you'll find a lot less resistance from the flying public.
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that to me is a good thing when it comes to something as severe as national security id rather them operate under the assumption that everyone is guilty rather than everyone is not guilty.
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You do realize that we generally operate under the assumption that people are innocent until proven guilty. This is a legal concept that goes all the way back to Roman and Greek times and some have traced back as far as the book of Deuteronomy. Suffice it to say, it's a very, very long standing assumption.
Let's say a bank gets robbed. I happen to be driving down the street when the cops arrive. Witnesses tell the cops that the bad guys were driving a black 4dr sedan. I'm driving a red mini van. The cops can't just pull me over, assume that I robbed the bank and take me to jail. They have to have probable cause just to pull me over in the first place. Now, if I'm driving a black 4dr sedan, they've got probable cause right there. If they pull me over and I don't match any description of the robbers, they don't find anything in my car that indicates that I'm involved in the robbery at all, they can't take me to jail and assume I'm guilty. I don't have to prove I'm innocent. Law enforcement must prove that there is probable cause to assume I'm guilty before they can even arrest me (i.e. driving a car that matches the description, physically meets the description, piles of hundred dollar bills in the passenger's seat, ski mask in the back seat, etc....) The presumption of innocence is a huge, huge thing.
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No, it didn't. It's not violating your rights, because you're choosing to fly. If you don't fly, you don't have to worry about following their rules. It would be a different story if you were walking down the street, and someone pulled up to search you for no reason, but that's not the case at all. It's really not all that difficult.
You protected my right to my own opinion, and now that I don't agree with you, you wish you hadn't protected them. Typical & Hypocritical.
"I'll fight for it, so long as it benefits me."
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Trust me, you don't want your country run under that assumption.
"I don't want my country run under that assumption."
You can go about your business.
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I understand that we operate under an innocent until proven guilty philosophy. But as I said "I FEEL" meaning my opinion, that in a situation where national security has been shown to be at risk, everyone should be treated guilty until proved otherwise, and to prove otherwise all you need to do is go through the body scanner or get a pat down. if you refuse then its a red flag that you are hiding something. theres your probable cause.
im not saying in all situations to follow this philosophy. just those involving national security. (flights etc...)
im not saying in all situations to follow this philosophy. just those involving national security. (flights etc...)
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Well, I confess to leaving out a much needed smiley; I knew what you meant and was attempting to get you to make something up ("Gentleman's Corsets" ?).
hahahahaha! I laughted out loud, for realz!
Wait a minute. Gentlemen's CORSETS?
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Remember to keep the debate clean and NO attacking members Going to put my $0.02
Well Canada hasn't gone down this road (yet) but this is something that other countries are debating now.
What I feel is that with the implementation of the full bodyscanner in airports, the mentality will be: why not have it in subways, since those have higher chance of getting bomb. Well to protect citizens and public interest and security, then why not have these everywhere, right? Like schools...I mean there are schools with metal detectors. Actually having body scanners at school makes sense...easier to catch kids with the drugs...
Going to put my $0.02Well Canada hasn't gone down this road (yet) but this is something that other countries are debating now.
What I feel is that with the implementation of the full bodyscanner in airports, the mentality will be: why not have it in subways, since those have higher chance of getting bomb. Well to protect citizens and public interest and security, then why not have these everywhere, right? Like schools...I mean there are schools with metal detectors. Actually having body scanners at school makes sense...easier to catch kids with the drugs...
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I do not plan to fly tomorrow, so to answer the thread, No. That said, what about December 3, October 4, September 14, or August 23? Seems to me a one day boycott will not work because this problem is here to stay, unless someone changes their mind and makes the changes to the TSA rules.
Bob Maxey
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I believe it will happen in Canada. The security of Canada and US are closely tied and it is likely that the US has enough influence over Canada to have us introduce these scanners.
I don't think that scanners in schools are going to prevent kids from taking drugs. They'll find a way to do drugs elsewhere. All you did was move the problem instead of solving it.
If you want to kill and injure a large number of people, there are a variety of places where you can do so. It's not just the subway. Anywhere in the city where a large number of people congregate can be a target. Are we going to monitor and screen every single store, park, beach, bridge, etc.? You cannot put scanners everywhere. There will be places where people can congregate without being screaned. Even a line-up for a scanner may have a lot of people. How close to do things have to be to the world in "1984" before you feel safe and are you willing to give up that much of your freedom?
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