Does Israel CONTROLL the USA?

X10iUser · Nov 24, 2010

zauper said:
I think you're confused.

Zionism refers to the idea that the Jewish people should have a homeland. Zionism is not a religious movement

EXACTLY! I have already stated there is a difference so not sure you proceed to say I'm confused. Zionism is based on the religious idea of them having a homeland.

The truth is that the Jewish faith and Zionism are two very different philosophies. They are as opposite as day and night. The Jewish people have existed for thousands of years. In their two thousand years of Divinely decreed exile no Jew ever sought to end this exile and establish independent political sovereignty anywhere. The people's sole purpose was the study and fulfillment of the Divine commandments of the Torah.

The Zionist movement created the Israeli state. The latter is a persuasion less than one hundred years old. Its essential goal was and is to change the nature of the Jewish people from that of a religious entity to a political movement. From Zionism's inception the spiritual leaders of the Jewish people stood in staunch opposition to it.

To this day Torah Jewry remains forever loyal to its faith. Zionists want the world to believe that they are the representatives of the entire Jewish people. This is false! The Jewish people never chose them as their leaders.

The Zionists have deceived many well meaning Jewish people via terror, trickery and false propaganda. They have at their disposal the use of a nearly universally subservient media. Whoever attempts to criticize them puts his livelihood and, at times, his very life in danger.

However, despite the media blackout and easy resort to terror the simple truth remains unrefuted and irrefutable: ACCORDING TO THE JEWISH FAITH AND TORAH LAW THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE FORBIDDEN TO HAVE THEIR OWN STATE WHILE AWAITING THE MESSIANIC ERA!

SOURCE

zauper · Nov 24, 2010

X10iUser said:
EXACTLY! I have already stated there is a difference so not sure you proceed to say I'm confused. Zionism is based on the religious idea of them having a homeland.

SOURCE

There's the problem. Zionism is not based on any religious idea.

Zionism is based on the idea that the people of Jewish faith are a people, and deserve a homeland like any other people.

It is a movement of people that are not religious. Look at the founders. Herzl wasn't practicing.

Zionism and religion - Zionism is not a religious movement, and Israel is not the state of the Jewish religion. The Jewish religious establishment was originally opposed to Zionism, and then tried to take over or direct the movement. There are religious Zionists, who have their own motivations for adhering to Zionism, and Zionism was certainly meant to include religious Jews, but Herzl, Weizmann and other Zionist leaders were not observant Jews and approached Zionism as a national problem, not as a religious issue.

Zionist ideology holds that the Jews are a people or nation like any other, and should gather together in a single homeland. Zionism was self-consciously the Jewish analogue of Italian and German national liberation movements of the nineteenth century. The term "Zionism" was apparently coined in 1891 by the Austrian publicist Nathan Birnbaum, to describe the new ideology, but it was used retroactively to describe earlier efforts and ideas to return the Jews to their homeland for whatever reasons, and it is applied to Evangelical Christians who want people of the Jewish religion to return to Israel in order to hasten the second coming. "Christian Zionism" is also used to describe any Christian support for Israel.

Zionism and the Creation of Israel - Definition and History

It doesn't matter what the religion says when it is not a religious question. Zionism was not a religious movement. It was a political movement. Which your link, itself, concedes. How does this make them an unjustified state?

X10iUser · Nov 24, 2010

zauper said:
There's the problem. Zionism is not based on any religious idea.

From your link...

The term "Zionism" was apparently coined in 1891 by the Austrian publicist Nathan Birnbaum, to describe the new ideology, but it was used retroactively to describe earlier efforts and ideas to return the Jews to their homeland for whatever reasons

So again, it is in part based on the religious idea, and if it wasn't they wouldn't proclaim in response to criticisms of it's existence religious testament that they deserve to be there.

[FONT=Callisto MT,Georgia,Book Antiqua,Palatino,Times New Roman,Serif]Zionists claim that Jews have the right to possess all land between the Nile and the Euphrates because (they say) this land was given to them by some entity they call "YHWH" as claimed in the Old Testament (Genesis 15:18).

But this would not be the first time that documents written by humans were used to justify land grabs. (And this "YHWH" appears, from accounts in the Old Testament, to be a particularly repulsive entity, vain, jealous, given to fits of rage and directing his followers to massacre civilian populations

zauper · Nov 24, 2010

X10iUser said:
From your link...

So again, it is in part based on the religious idea, and if it wasn't they wouldn't proclaim in response to criticisms of it's existence religious testament that they deserve to be there.

Yes, there are people that use the term to describe other, earlier efforts as well, but they are incorrect (as explained in the link... that people are using it incorrectly). They can defend themselves rhetorically however they choose.

Zionism is a political movement, which you admit. Admitting it fundamentally undercuts your arguments that attempt to cast it as a religious movement. It doesn't matter if there are religious bits involved in it -- is Spain a Christian country? Can it's existence be justified by looking at the bible? No? Then we should probably get rid of it, right?

SOURCE

Yeah okay, let's use a website that has a clear anti-Jewish bias to it.

http://www.911review.com/denial/serendipity_jewishmedia.png

Serendipity.li avoids making overtly racist statements, but it links extensively to sites like Public-Action.com and AmericanFreePress.net. Until 2/2/05, Serendipity featured an article Team Bush Betrays America as the final link of its The World Trade Center Demolition and the So-Called War on Terrorism. The article identifies all Jews named in the text with yellow Star-of-David icons, with the word "Jude" in the center. Anyone familiar with the history of European Jewry will understand that this is a chilling reference to the persecution of Jews: Nazi Germany, and other nations before it, required Jews to wear patches (just like the icons in the article) so that they could be identified -- the first step in the implementation of Hitler's Final Solution.

9-11 Review: Holocaust Denial Versus 9-11 Truth

Which is beyond the fact that they're both wrong and irrelevant to the discussion.

Frisco · Nov 24, 2010

batgeek said:
sweet propaganda pics dood!

Well, there is an analogy to those photographs, rather a corollary being highlighted between the Nazi regime and the Zionist one.

At first glance it seems a valid comparison. Then we are challenged to gather facts as best we can and then to decide for ourselves if the comparison holds.

I think it holds in a significant way: that the people of Israel learned first hand several decades ago how to deal with people perceived as an internal enemy. The Jews of Germany especially and Europe in general were seen as the enemy of the Reich, and the Palestinians are perceived as the enemy of Israel.

One could be poetic about it and claim a sense of disease in the whole thing; Fascism is a social disease and the Jews became infected by such intimate proximity to it in the years leading up to and during the 2nd World War. And now they exhibit similar behavior, similar "symptoms," as the Nazis.

But I don't see things as quite that way anymore. The threat is real in Israel: that country is surrounded by people sworn to destroy them. However, in Germany, no Jew was sworn to destroy that country, or any other; they were peace loving, productive citizens who loved Germany and being German Jews. The Nazis wanted the resources, and Hitler had a disgusting disease of his own, which ended up causing havoc, a holocaust and mass murder of all of his imagined enemies.

So, those pics up there.. no.. wrong. Yes, propaganda.

jamor · Nov 24, 2010

Why are Canadians so jealous of Americans? They watch their TV, they watch their films/movies, they follow their sports.

Poor Canadians.. No wonder Quebec wants out.

Red Petal · Nov 24, 2010

Hi,
Its very serious topic to discuss. I only know a common man can not reach planning and approaches of Governments and its high officials, so be careful to discuss it.
Regards

ElasticNinja · Nov 24, 2010

So brainwashed... LOL

Please PLEASE try to justify Israel settlements in the West Bank and their stealing of resources
And the siege of Gaza

Look at Israeli politics - how can you justify it to yourelves

Because of the Holocaust?

Its like the father who gets injured in the war, and so is let off for beating his wife

Frisco · Nov 24, 2010

shadowninty said:
Because of the Holocaust?

Its like the father who gets injured in the war, and so is let off for beating his wife

I have read some of the posts in this thread, but not all of them. Can you link the one that says the Israeli occupation of Palestinian claimed regions is a response to the holocaust?

My reference to the holocaust is in context of a comparison as to the ruthlessness of the Nazis and how the Israeli tactics seem similar to some (not to me). That reasoning, mistaken, as I pointed out in the last sentence of that post, is inherent in the photos posted by another member here, showing Nazis pics and Israeli soldier pics next to one another as if they are a valid comparison.

Perhaps you're responding to some other remarks that I have not read in this thread.

ElasticNinja · Nov 24, 2010

Frisco said:
I have read some of the posts in this thread, but not all of them. Can you link the one that says the Israeli occupation of Palestinian claimed regions is a response to the holocaust?

My reference to the holocaust is in context of a comparison as to the ruthlessness of the Nazis and how the Israeli tactics seem similar to some (not to me). That reasoning, mistaken, as I pointed out in the last sentence of that post, is inherent in the photos posted by another member here, showing Nazis pics and Israeli soldier pics next to one another as if they are a valid comparison.

Perhaps you're responding to some other remarks that I have not read in this thread.

My point was you make it sound like its all ok
Why do Israeli PMs plan to destroy every agreement
Expand settlements
Strangle Gaza
Maltreat prisoners
Allow bigoted far righters in their cabinets
Attack aid convoys
etc

Justify

I asked a question
Give reasons

Note for some: "?" indicates that a question is being asked

Frisco · Nov 24, 2010

It's a complicated conflict, an old one. And one that lines people up around the world on one side or the other.

Your question mark was used in a way to make a statement, not in a way to ask anything; you're saying the Israeli actions are just wrong and that to superimpose the holocaust over the reasoning for it is not valid.

I happen to agree with that.

Notable is that natives of that region are not in the government: Israel of today is not the Israel of the Bible, it is run by European Jews displaced over the centuries by antisemitism.

What a complicated situation indeed. Taking sides 100% one way or the other is just not possible for me to do.

ElasticNinja · Nov 24, 2010

Frisco said:
What a complicated situation indeed. Taking sides 100% one way or the other is just not possible for me to do.

Yeah, its the same with anything
Most Israelis arent bad people - they just vote for far right parties - why?
I dont know - as I said, it could be a classic oppressed>oppressor reaction

As I said, I have relatives in Israel, and no its not clear cut

But IMO, its time for sanctions - why?
Israel is a highly developed wealthy western country - imagine if US did this to Mexico

This is an issue deep to my heart - its probably because I care too much for people

Anyway, sorry if I got angry at you

X10iUser · Nov 24, 2010

zauper said:
Admitting it fundamentally undercuts your arguments that attempt to cast it as a religious movement.

I'm not trying to cast it as a religious movement, and yet again you've missed the point, because to accept it you undercut your own argument that it's fully political and that it justifies Israel's actions.

zauper said:
Yeah okay, let's use a website that has a clear anti-Jewish bias to it.

Not sure why you had to use links with 911 in them :rolleyes:

, the fact that you have shows you're trying to deflect points being made by trying to link holocaust denial with this discussion. :rolleyes:

Have you been reading an AIPAC handbook, you'll be screaming I'm an "anti-semite" next. :rolleyes:

droiduzr2 · Nov 24, 2010

X10iUser said:
I'm not trying to cast it as a religious movement, and yet again you've missed the point, because to accept it you undercut your own argument that it's fully political and that it justifies Israel's actions.

Not sure why you had to use links with 911 in them , the fact that you have shows you're trying to deflect points being made by trying to link holocaust denial with this discussion. Have you been reading an AIPAC handbook, you'll be screaming I'm an "anti-semite" next.

What if he types instead of screams

What amazes me is the mindset here that it seems OKAY to imprison the Palestinians and treat them like animals.

You do realize that EXACT mindset is what the German People has towards the Jews right. You would be a Nazi if we rolled back the clock.

Let's kill all the Palestinians and just have a country of Israel?
Does that work for you?

Have you learned nothing in the past 10 years. The GREATEST MILITARY IN HISTORY thus far can NOT find Bin Laden. So a country that pours TRILLIONS of $$$ to find 1 guy for which they at least know his general location. Would it not be cheaper and safer to just offer a $1 Billion reward for his head and $5 Billion for him alive???

X10iUser · Nov 25, 2010

To try and get back on topic...

In the early 1960s, Senator William J. Fulbright fought to force the American Zionist Council to register as agents of a foreign government. The Council eluded registration by reorganizing as the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. AIPAC has since become what Fulbright most feared: a foreign agent dominating American foreign policy while disguised as a domestic lobby.

Israelis and pro-Israelis object when they hear that charge. How, they ask, can we so few wield such influence over so many? Answer: it’s all in the math. And in the single-issue advocacy brought to bear on US policy-making by dozens of ‘domestic’ organizations that now compose the Israel lobby, with AIPAC its most visible force.

SOURCE

...as always, follow the money.

Frisco · Nov 25, 2010

shadowninty said:
Yeah, its the same with anything
Most Israelis arent bad people - they just vote for far right parties - why?
I dont know - as I said, it could be a classic oppressed>oppressor reaction

As I said, I have relatives in Israel, and no its not clear cut

But IMO, its time for sanctions - why?
Israel is a highly developed wealthy western country - imagine if US did this to Mexico

This is an issue deep to my heart - its probably because I care too much for people

Anyway, sorry if I got angry at you

Nice of you to apologize, thanks.

I remember when I first began to look back, way back at the history of this ongoing conflict; it's one of the oldest on Earth, and has been renewed on a regular basis, often by events in that region seemingly not related to Israel or the Palestinians.

My trips to Israel and then to North Africa (Egypt, Libya, Morocco and Algeria) confused me more in the long run, because I found people by-and-large divided by religion more than by the politics of the times.

I honestly don't think there is a real solution, for many reasons. We're just going to have to live with it as best we can. <---- that is a quote from an English speaking merchant in Mecca, who I'd asked what he thought of the ongoing troubles.

ElasticNinja · Nov 25, 2010

There is no quick shot solution
Even when (if?) Israelis start treating the Palestinians fairly, there will be a lot of Palestininian extremists remaining, and a lot of Palestinian hate for Israel

zauper · Nov 26, 2010

X10iUser said:
I'm not trying to cast it as a religious movement, and yet again you've missed the point, because to accept it you undercut your own argument that it's fully political and that it justifies Israel's actions.

False. Your argument is based on religion.

Not sure why you had to use links with 911 in them , the fact that you have shows you're trying to deflect points being made by trying to link holocaust denial with this discussion. Have you been reading an AIPAC handbook, you'll be screaming I'm an "anti-semite" next.

Actually, if you actually looked at the website (I was curious about your "source", [largely the .il extension which I hadn't seen before] so I googled it) you would discover that your source engages in holocaust denial, (and 9/11 denial FWIW).

droiduzr2 · Nov 26, 2010

zauper said:
False. Your argument is based on religion.

Actually, if you actually looked at the website (I was curious about your "source", [largely the .il extension which I hadn't seen before] so I googled it) you would discover that your source engages in holocaust denial, (and 9/11 denial FWIW).

Zauper, are you Jewish?

X10iUser · Nov 27, 2010

zauper said:
False. Your argument is based on religion.

It's based on the religious idea being turned into a political one, and used to justify their actions. Again, if there weren't religious elements to it also they wouldn't quote religious testaments in their defence.

zauper said:
I was curious about your "source"

I'm more curious about the "information" being discussed here. :rolleyes:

Information is information regardless of where it comes from.

droiduzr2 · Nov 27, 2010

X10iUser said:
It's based on the religious idea being turned into a political one, and used to justify their actions. Again, if there weren't religious elements to it also they wouldn't quote religious testaments in their defence.

I'm more curious about the "information" being discussed here. Information is information regardless of where it comes from.

Not so fast X10. I think you have done a great job providing credible sources. If someone started applying (see bold) that method then people will use Glenn Beck as a source.

I am still waiting for him to answer my question as to if he is Jewish or not then I will reply with why I asked the question.

*I don't care about anyone's color/religion etc... I just care about the content of their character.

darklide · Dec 2, 2010

Why bring Canada in here?

byteware · Dec 2, 2010

X10iUser said:
If you read what I wrote you'd see I haven't, and it's your kind of logic that's twisted what I said and meant that people defend the actions of Israel's Government.

I read you wrote, and I viewed your comparison of photos from Nazi Germany, and Present Day Israel. You absolutely did compare and equate the two.

LoyalServant · Dec 3, 2010

I believe there is some influence that gets exerted by Israel.
If Israel was a non-issue why does it get debated in presidential elections?

Obviously the public think we need Israel for something.... I don't.
Does that mean they 'control' - no, but they have influence... and too much for my liking personally.

batgeek · Dec 3, 2010

X10iUser said:
I'm more curious about the "information" being discussed here. Information is information regardless of where it comes from.

information may be misinformation depending on where it comes from. spreading that misinformation does a disservice to everyone.

Does Israel CONTROLL the USA?

Does Israel CONTROLL the US?

Yes

No

Maybe or not sure

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