Why Columbus Day is a joke

tommy_ed · Oct 10, 2011

1. He didn't discover America
2. Not only was he not a hero, he was a pretty big douche actually

Truth About Columbus

Columbus was so impressed with the hard work of these gentle islanders, that he immediately seized their land for Spain and enslaved them to work in his brutal gold mines. Within only two years, 125,000 (half of the population) of the original natives on the island were dead.

Shockingly, Columbus supervised the selling of native girls into sexual slavery. Young girls of the ages 9 to 10 were the most desired by his men. In 1500, Columbus casually wrote about it in his log. He said: "A hundred castellanoes are as easily obtained for a woman as for a farm, and it is very general and there are plenty of dealers who go about looking for girls; those from nine to ten are now in demand."

melim · Oct 10, 2011

Hear, hear. I'm embarrassed and sickened as an Italian-American that he's considered a hero in any way, shape or form.

Reconsider Columbus Day 2010 - YouTube

Sak01 · Oct 10, 2011

That's what you get when you judge famous historical figures based on modern, moral standards. Most of them turn out to be despicable dastards.

Winston Churchill, for example, supported the use of poison gas on 'uncivilised' Iraqi and Kurdish civilians (eat your heart out Saddam) and how many of your founding fathers were slave owners?

gallandof · Oct 10, 2011

Interesting, i dont follow US history a ton, but I never really understood columbus day as a kid. As i remember it columbus came to US, and forced native Americans into voluntary slavery (they didnt have to but most didn't have a choice).

Going to have to read up more on this as my thoughts probably arent fully true.

melim · Oct 10, 2011

Gallandof, here's a good place to start, and I highly recommend reading Howard Zinn's book:
VIDEO: Reconsider Columbus Day, and Howard Zinn’s version of the story - Three Sonorans

Sorry about posting the same video twice; it just happens to also be in this link.

A.Nonymous · Oct 10, 2011

The Pilgrims killed the Indians and took their land. George Washington was a slave owner. Lincoln married a woman who was certifiably insane and let her run the White House. MLK was an adulterer. If we look at any historical figures and judge them by our standards we find that they are all flawed. Shouldn't surprise anyone. They are human after all.

Look at Steve Jobs. People are celebrating his life. He stole money from Woz (who is about the nicest guy on the planet by all accounts) and flat out denied a daughter he had out of wedlock even after a paternity test. There are tons of other stories about him being a controlling a-hole and being somewhat of a prick. Does that mean the guy was not brilliant? No. Does that mean he was not influential and innovative? Heck no. Does that mean the world would not have been a completely different place without him? Not at all. The man still deserves every accolade he's been given and probably then some. He's got flaws just like anyone else. Heck, if you looked at any of us under the same microscope I'm sure none of us would hold up either.

tommy_ed · Oct 10, 2011

Sak01 said:
That's what you get when you judge famous historical figures based on modern, moral standards. Most of them turn out to despicable dastards.

Winston Churchill, for example, supported the use of poison gas on 'uncivilised' Iraqi and Kurdish civilians (eat your heart out Saddam) and how many of your founding fathers were slave owners?

actttttually he was considered a despicable bastard back then too. In fact he was even arrested and sent back to Spain to stand trial for his atrocities, but the Queen didn't want to lose out on all the $$$$ from this expeditions. Sounds about right for a government decision:
Human Lives < Money

tommy_ed · Oct 10, 2011

A.Nonymous said:
The Pilgrims killed the Indians and took their land. George Washington was a slave owner. Lincoln married a woman who was certifiably insane and let her run the White House. MLK was an adulterer. If we look at any historical figures and judge them by our standards we find that they are all flawed. Shouldn't surprise anyone. They are human after all.

Look at Steve Jobs. People are celebrating his life. He stole money from Woz (who is about the nicest guy on the planet by all accounts) and flat out denied a daughter he had out of wedlock even after a paternity test. There are tons of other stories about him being a controlling a-hole and being somewhat of a prick. Does that mean the guy was not brilliant? No. Does that mean he was not influential and innovative? Heck no. Does that mean the world would not have been a completely different place without him? Not at all. The man still deserves every accolade he's been given and probably then some. He's got flaws just like anyone else. Heck, if you looked at any of us under the same microscope I'm sure none of us would hold up either.

so what exactly did Columbus do that was good, may I ask? Because for your argument to apply, he had to have done something great enough to outweigh the negatives to be considered a hero by any means. And there are A LOT more negatives than the people you've listed here...

Sak01 · Oct 10, 2011

A.Nonymous said:
...He's got flaws just like anyone else. Heck, if you looked at any of us under the same microscope I'm sure none of us would hold up either.

Sure, no one's perfect but I would hope that none of our flaws included enslavement and the trafficking of women for sex.

EarlyMon · Oct 10, 2011

The Norse incursions to North America didn't stick, Spain's did, European imperialism spread to two new continents, several wars happened, some more wars happened, and pretty much the French, British and Spanish all ended up with fiefdoms for generations while everyone on both sides of the pond pretended that wasn't really the case because maps showed territories as sovereign.

Then, we got oil.

Meanwhile, someone noticed that an Italian spearheaded the expansion of colonialism and imperialism, no one could get their heads around that, so they declared him a hero and made a school holiday in his name so that they didn't have to try. And once the kids were let out on a Monday, their parents quickly followed.

PS - And his route was known to his Portuguese navigators all along, they're the ones that nailed it.

A.Nonymous · Oct 10, 2011

Sak01 said:
Sure, no one's perfect but I would hope that none of our flaws included enslavement and the trafficking of women for sex.

The people who founded our country actively enslaved people and many wrote vehement defenses of the practice. All of them were therefore douchebags and we should be ashamed of every last one.

EarlyMon · Oct 10, 2011

I get this is the lounge, but are the tough-guy words douche and douchebag REALLY necessary around here?

Thank you.

tommy_ed · Oct 10, 2011

A.Nonymous said:
The people who founded our country actively enslaved people and many wrote vehement defenses of the practice. All of them were therefore douchebags and we should be ashamed of every last one.

ahem... i think ya skimmed me!

what did Columbus do that was good enough to outweigh the negatives and make him a hero?

also the difference between columbus and our forefathers? At the time, the actions of our forefathers were the norm. This isn't the case with Columbus. He was actually arrested because of them, and many people at the time wrote of how outrageous and despicable his actions in the americas were.

zuben el genub · Oct 10, 2011

We can spell Columbus' name in all formats. We'd have a helluva time with Vespucci.

EarlyMon · Oct 10, 2011

zuben el genub said:
We can spell Columbus' name in all formats. We'd have a helluva time with Vespucci.

I think we did .... America.

RiverOfIce · Oct 10, 2011

EarlyMon said:
The Norse incursions to North America didn't stick, Spain's did,

Then why do we have, in 1492, blue/green/hazel eyed, blonde haired, light complexion Indians? Blue eyes is a recessive trait, meaning it takes many generations to breed into a line. Almost every tribe in the north/mid/east had a few abnormal color variations. See mandan tribe, which is the most documented.

Why do we have the Aztecs referring to the "return of the white man"? How can the "white man return" if he never was there?

A.Nonymous · Oct 10, 2011

tommy_ed said:
ahem... i think ya skimmed me!

what did Columbus do that was good enough to outweigh the negatives and make him a hero?

also the difference between columbus and our forefathers? At the time, the actions of our forefathers were the norm. This isn't the case with Columbus. He was actually arrested because of them, and many people at the time wrote of how outrageous and despicable his actions in the americas were.

For one thing, Columbus opened up new lines of trade from Europe to the New World. As mentioned before, his explorations "stuck" and Europe kept coming back to the New World. His voyages were neither the first, nor the last, but they were the most influential by far. The history of the Western World would've been much different without his contributions. Does this outweigh what he did? That's up to other people to decide. In the end we're debating about a minor holiday that few people observe and even fewer care about.

zuben el genub · Oct 10, 2011

A.Nonymous said:
The people who founded our country actively enslaved people and many wrote vehement defenses of the practice. All of them were therefore douchebags and we should be ashamed of every last one.

Not all - William Penn did not. His family did after he died.

Bob Maxey · Oct 10, 2011

We are a product of millions of decisions and ideas; connections that are ignored. There are deep connections that connect thousands of things together. I am not sure we would be what we are without "the bad guys" doing what they did.

It is silly to bring up which president owned slaves. That was legal at the time and not everyone in the country owned slaves or wanted to own another human being.

The point is we came from the decisions --good and bad --made by lots of people. It is not fair to complain about those things a small number of people did; the point is, we stopped and we are getting better.

julianne791 · Oct 11, 2011

Every country has a past we are not proud of

In Australian History, white australians enslaved Indigenous Australians when British colonists arrived. And in my home state, Fremantle about an hour or so from Perth, they used to have a whaling yard where they slaughtered the whales, no one is proud of it, but that's our history wether we like it or not.
The important thing is we learn from our mistakes.

tommy_ed · Oct 11, 2011

A.Nonymous said:
For one thing, Columbus opened up new lines of trade from Europe to the New World.

yea slave trade of 9 and 10 year old natives lol

A.Nonymous said:
The history of the Western World would've been much different without his contributions.

how so? I'm sure someone would have came soon after if he had not... maybe someone who wasnt as much of a psychopath ha

it doesn't matter how many people celebrate it. schools are closed. post office is closed. banks. all to honor a child slave trader, mass murderer, etc. Do you really want your kids (if you have any or plan to) to be taught false information and told to celebrate this man?

EarlyMon · Oct 11, 2011

tommy_ed - I need to ask you to take this down a notch.

Please hear me out, you may end up agreeing.

It's true we have a tradition of teaching false, biased and incomplete history.

It's true that many evils can be ascribed to Columbus. And the Mayflower immigrants. And Washington. And Ben Franklin.

But first, many schools already address these issues and go along because it's just a calendar day.

Second, if these charges extend to others as I contend, this isn't just about Columbus Day.

But really, we are made up of many constituencies. Living in harmony with Native peoples, I am sensitive to hate against Columbus as an icon, but he's just not the only one.

The reason to take it down a notch is because you are giving people the option to either agree with you or be guilty of supporting lies, slavery and genocide.

And that gives no one room to explore the topic or state their views or advocate for their constituency.

And that's not fair - and I think that not fair is not polite.

Do you see the idea?

Thanks.

A.Nonymous · Oct 11, 2011

tommy_ed said:
it doesn't matter how many people celebrate it. schools are closed. post office is closed. banks. all to honor a child slave trader, mass murderer, etc. Do you really want your kids (if you have any or plan to) to be taught false information and told to celebrate this man?

Whenever we celebrate Washington's Birthday we are celebrating a man who endorsed slavery and owned slaves himself. Whenever we celebrate Thanksgiving we are celebrating people who killed, maimed, raped and tortured the natives and then stole their land from them to boot. And if we look at things from the other perspective, the natives did the exact same thing to the white man in retaliation. So at the end of the day we should celebrate nothing at all because the focus should be on any an all negatives and any contributions should be ignored.

Sak01 · Oct 11, 2011

Every nation needs heroes to fuel the fires of patriotism. In Mongolia, for example, they actually celebrate the achievements of Genghis Khan.

This thread raises some interesting questions about moral relativism, patriotism and hero worship.

tommy_ed · Oct 11, 2011

EarlyMon:

I understand what you're getting at somewhat, but the truth isn't polite sometimes. And our kids need to know it rather than be taught flat out lies, like teaching them that Columbus discovered America. I'm simply saying I don't think it should be a holiday and I don't think we should purposely feed our kids false information. I'm not saying anyone who disagrees with me is supporting mass genocide, child slave trade, and all the other heinous crimes, but to think the man deserves a holiday I feel there would need to be some kind of monumental greatness to outweigh those things. I don't think such greatness exists, given that even in his own time Columbus was considered to be an evil monster. The same can't be said for Washington, Lincoln, or MLK. But that being said, I'll try to tone it down for you, because you re-opened the mass animals death thread for me. even though it died a slow, silent death soon after

lol

A.Nonymous said:
Whenever we celebrate Washington's Birthday we are celebrating a man who endorsed slavery and owned slaves himself. Whenever we celebrate Thanksgiving we are celebrating people who killed, maimed, raped and tortured the natives and then stole their land from them to boot. And if we look at things from the other perspective, the natives did the exact same thing to the white man in retaliation. So at the end of the day we should celebrate nothing at all because the focus should be on any an all negatives and any contributions should be ignored.

ONCE AGAIN, George Washington did many great things, and slavery was very commonplace at the time. Not so with Columbus' crimes.
As for Thanksgiving, that holiday celebrates a particular point in time where we were at peace with the natives.

And no, the natives in Columbus' scenario did not. They had no prisons, prisoners or crime before he arrived. Even after the years of enslavement in his gold mines, 100 of them committed a mass suicide rather than retaliate. so NO they did not do the same exact thing.

Why Columbus Day is a joke

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