Samsung needs to give us a BIGGER Standard mAh Battery for the Nexus!

Roaddog said:

It helps if you think of lithium ion batteries in terms of a gas tank. Current tech has shrunk them down as small as they can possibly be without inventing a new type of battery entirely.

That is untrue. We do not need a new tech...Lithium Ion is fine. What we need is a now cathode that will hold more Lithium Ions per volume. That is possible...in fact I was (no longer working in that lab) working on a crystal structure that was supposed to achieved that. For various reasons, it was not feasible in reality.

So, given that, there's also a finite amount of energy that can be stored inside them at a given size and thickness.

This may be a bit pedantic, but what you want to say is a given volume, density and anode/cathode crystal structure and chemistry.


To use the gas tank analogy, no matter how much you try, you'll only be able to fit a certain amount of gas inside of a tank at a certain size. A 5 gallon tank will fit 5 gallons of gas. Always. Trying to cram more in won't work because the laws of physics prohibit you from cramming six gallons into a 5 gallon space. If you want to fit more gas in the thing, you're going to need a bigger tank. The same is true for batteries.

The analogy almost works. 5 gallons of diesel takes up the same volume as 5 gallons of Gasoline, but it has more energy. Same with different battery chemistries.



The ONLY way to increase the mAh rating on a battery is to increase it's size. You can make like Moto did with the Razr Maxx and work some voodoo with form factor to accommodate the batteries increased size, but the bottom line is that more mAh means an increase in size. The Maxx isn't a "better battery" capable of higher mAh rating at the same or similar size, Moto just hid the size by changing the phone's physical construction. (Again, more gas needs a bigger tank. They hid the tank better. But it's still just as big as any other lithium ion at that mAh rating.) It's not a matter of the manufacturing company skimping on their battery budget and selecting a battery that's suboptimized, it's a matter of simple physics.

Does that make it any clearer?

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So I am not getting in a debate, just fixing some info. My edits/corrections in RED.

-Nkk

Outatime said:

It really is great having the freedom to make that choice.

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You're correct in my point of view, sir! Just reminding the people what game we're playing so they fully understand the choice they've been given.

Take from that what you will...

Researches on more efficient battery technology, material surely exist with big R&D dollars. But it's still long way down the road until it replaces what Lithium Ion does for mobile devices today.

I think Samsung and others will try to do what Moto did with Maxx, redesigning phone hardware to fit bigger battery into it. Also radio chip, processor will be more power efficient as the IC chip feature size shrinks. That will come much quicker than whole new battery technology. But I personally don't like fixed battery design.

sean76 said:

Trolling? Are you EFFFFFFFING KIDDING ME??? What are you a battery developer? Are you out of your mind saying I'm trolling...Seriously go about your day..Your the only one repeating yourself Several times...Nobody else.

My last posting said alot of companies will be going the sealed battery direction very soon to compete with what moto just pulled off!

Its common sense what Moto did here buddy...But like I said, a Negative big mouth like yourself would have blasted somone coming on here 1 week ago saying that moto doubled the battery size of the Razr by just slightly increasing the thickness of the phone a tiny bit. Seriously you need to go away buddy...Trolling is something that you simply dont know the meaning of...If you have nothing good to add...Take your business elsewhere.

There are HTC, Moto, even Samsung Batteries floating around that are the same size as Samsungs 1850mAh Nexus battery, that are only say 1500mAh...Seriously I dont feel the need to defend or go any further with you on the subject...Your tone is one of a poster that seems to know it all.

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Apologies for injured feelings etc. I think we're just not communicating in the same terms. I meant no offense, and I'm truly sorry that's how it went. I'll just leave it at that.

nkk said:

So I am not getting in a debate, just fixing some info. My edits/corrections in RED.

-Nkk

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Thanks. I was basing my arguments on basically what I was able to glean from doing a little research online. I figured I had over simplified some of the tech a bit, but was doing so in an attempt to get a point across that was missing its mark. I appreciate the expertise!

RiChDAiLLesT1 said:

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The technology existes just a matter of time

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That's freaking awesome! I wonder how long before it's commercially available.

ics may be more power efficient, but LTE eats that improvement for breakfast lunch and dinner.

as it stands right now samsung would have to compromise form factor in some way to put a 'bigger' battery in the nexus. the phone would either have to be wider, longer, or thicker to fit a bigger battery.

for example, the 2100mah extended battery (which i like) makes the nexus slightly thicker but doesn't compromise form factor too much. anything more than that and the phone loses the aesthetics samsung was aiming for.

that said, the extended battery adds only about an hour give/take of 'on' time but greatly extends 'standby' time.

battery tech will eventually improve to fit more 'cells' into the same size package, but it's probably not cost effective for mass production right now.

All I know is if Roaddog and Binary (lack of) Vision ran the world, there would be no advancement in technology...ever.

If what Sean believes isn't relevant, than neither is what you believe. To say its absolutely 100% impossible there will ever be an advancement to allow more power out of smaller batteries is ridiculous, close minded, and absurd. I would call you two the trolls here.

I hold in my hand a phone that is less than five inches tall and just under 9mm thick, yet not only does it have more processing power than the 30 pound box I call a desktop PC in my study, but it actually contains more processing and computing power than all of NASA when they launched the first space shuttle. I bet someone as little as ten years ago thought that was impossible.

Hell, I remember being absolutely blown away when a friend of mine bought a 2GB harddrive! 2GB!! I thought he would never fill that up. Now they easily build 2TB drives and place them in even smaller spaces.

But back to those impossible batteries. Yup. You're right. Battery technology has NEVER evolved and probably never will. I wouldn't be surprised if 50 years from now, we aren't using the same batteries to power our phones as Henry Ford used in the Model T. Yup, no advancement at all. Never gonna happen. Because you two battery engineers say it just isn't possible. We've taken battery technology to its pinnacle.

Please.

sean76 said:

Your tone is one of a poster that seems to know it all.

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May I gently remind you that your tone is of a poster who also seems to know it all? I mean, you just know that this battery size is inefficient. You're so sure that you could get more power into this battery. Yet, you don't know how or why. You say "hard work" - well of course, someone will find a breakthrough in battery technology and I guess you could say that's hard work paying off - but "hard work" only goes so far when you're looking at the energy capacity of any given technology. You need a media to store energy. For any given efficiency of the media, you can only pack so much energy in. With current lithium cells, they're as small as they can be for a given amount of energy - because no amount of hard work is going to change the amount of energy that these cells can hold.

Motorola increased the thickness of their phone, which significantly increases the volume. All of that gained space could be dedicated entirely to battery. It's all the same components.

The point isn't that we don't all want more battery life. The point is that to get there, with current battery technology, we must sacrifice space to get there. Motorola did so much design work to make their phone thin, that they then had the luxury of adding bulk to it in the name of battery life. It has zero to do with the battery itself.

Nobody is arguing with the idea that we want and need better batteries. Just with your insistence that somehow this can be done with current technology if people would just focus more on it. Like Samsung just left something out of the equation.

Labs all over the world are focusing on it every single day because the first person to come out with a breakout battery technology is going to make about a bajillion dollars in a thousand different markets.

Mr. Orange 645 said:

If what Sean believes isn't relevant, than neither is what you believe. To say its absolutely 100% impossible there will ever be an advancement to allow more power out of smaller batteries is ridiculous, close minded, and absurd. I would call you two the trolls here

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You are not reading what is being written. Go back and read closer. Before you, ya' know, start throwing the "troll" word around

I don't know the exact design limitations etc.. But I kinda agree with Sean here , first of all the phone should have just come with the 2100mah battery it's really no thicker then the 1850 , heck it almost fits under the stock back cover . I also dont' see any reason they couldn't make the batter longer or slightly wider and squezze an extra 300-500mah in there . If they increased the Galaxy nexus another .5mm over the 2100 back but could make it a 2500 mah battery that would have been great. I think any bigger and you'd really have to start making compromising (ie removable battery )

I'm more then happy with my battery life though with the 2100mah batter it's by far better then my Thunderbolt was and slightly better then the Rezound . I can get 20hrs of heavier usage on 3g and 12hrs with LTE I mean right now I'm sitting at 72% with 6hrs 25 minutes of use with an hour and a half of the screen being on . All on LTE but today I didn't stream any music , watch any videos or play any games only media use was a few pictures and 20 minutes of mp3 . Rest was more productivity related kinda lol

Mr. Orange 645 said:

All I know is if Roaddog and Binary (lack of) Vision ran the world, there would be no advancement in technology...ever.

If what Sean believes isn't relevant, than neither is what you believe. To say its absolutely 100% impossible there will ever be an advancement to allow more power out of smaller batteries is ridiculous, close minded, and absurd. I would call you two the trolls here.

I hold in my hand a phone that is less than five inches tall and just under 9mm thick, yet not only does it have more processing power than the 30 pound box I call a desktop PC in my study, but it actually contains more processing and computing power than all of NASA when they launched the first space shuttle. I bet someone as little as ten years ago thought that was impossible.

Hell, I remember being absolutely blown away when a friend of mine bought a 2GB harddrive! 2GB!! I thought he would never fill that up. Now they easily build 2TB drives and place them in even smaller spaces.

But back to those impossible batteries. Yup. You're right. Battery technology has NEVER evolved and probably never will. I wouldn't be surprised if 50 years from now, we aren't using the same batteries to power our phones as Henry Ford used in the Model T. Yup, no advancement at all. Never gonna happen. Because you two battery engineers say it just isn't possible. We've taken battery technology to its pinnacle.

Please.

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This is so right on . Does anyone remember some of the first cell phones ?? I remember my first sell phone back in I think 1998 it was massive the battery was about the same size as an iphone is . And I could kill the battery with just a few phone calls and a game of snake lol I never thought a phone would be this powerful . I remember getting a phone with an idiglow display INDIGLOW lol that was some hightech stuff there

RiChDAiLLesT1 said:

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The technology existes just a matter of time

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That must be voodoo or science fiction. Its already been stated unequivocally here that what that article suggests isn't possible. To suggest otherwise is heracy and will get you called a "troll" if you refuse to accept others' opinions as fact.

binary visions said:

You are not reading what is being written. Go back and read closer. Before you, ya' know, start throwing the "troll" word around

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I have read it. And I wasn't the first to throw "troll" out there.

What I read and comprehend is you say that it is absolutely and unequivocally impossible to increase battery maH without increasing the physical size of the battery. That it will NEVER happen with a Li-ion battery. That's what you said.

I'm just merely pointing out all the "impossible" things that have been acheived through technological advancements.

But I guess all the millions spent on battery R&D are wasted dollars.

All you people bashing binary visions and roaddog need to calm down.

The point is, YES there exists tech to make things more efficient, but it's not feasible to put into phones, and hasn't matured enough to make it into production.

It's like when we were all screaming for the Exynos 4212. It exists; it's more efficient than the OMAP...but it's not going into the gnex.

What they're pointing out is that with all current batteries, you don't just magically increase the mAH without sacrificing the small size, which is what the OP suggested. It wouldn't be "easy" for Samsung to just create such a battery, because it can't be done at the moment.

Of course there are going to breakthroughs, and of course eventually they'll run into production, but until then, you're all going to have to deal with the fact that if you don't like the battery life, then you have to work around it.

In the meantime, if the gnex doesn't live up to your standards, then look for ways to remedy it however you see fit. There are devs out there constantly undervolting, writing code to shut down a core when idle, etc. Carry a spare battery.

If you can't live with these easy alternatives, then go get a phone that suits you.

sean76 said:

Thank you for your point. Much appreciated! These guys think I'm saying that I want to wish up a 3300mAh battery that's the size of the current Nexus Battery! Not what I'm wishing for or after, maybe in the Future buy not now of course. I would be happy with a 2200mAh battery the size of the current Nexus Stock battery. Is that possible? I don't know? Maybe, Maybe not? Some people in here thought it would be cool and current to blast me on this and the thought to look towards the future and where battery life is headed.

Either way...its all good, I brush it off! Luv the Henry Ford analogy...

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That's where our communication disconnect occurred I believe. I'm not discounting the fact that the tech will/can advance, or that in a year we'll be able to come up with new ideas/ways to make them smaller, just that with the current tech we have squeezing more juice into the current package (without updating components or whathaveyou) wouldn't be possible. You were talking on a "wouldn't it be cool" level and I took it as a "this can happen TODAY if they just tried harder to jam it in there." I think I came off as saying, "they'll never get any smaller ever, we've hit a wall." Which, clearly, is not true.

Sorry things got so confrontational. Sometimes I get a little heavy handed with the caps lock. (It IS cruise control for cool! Right?)

I hope we can all part ways saying when it does show up it'll be cool and I look forward to seeing how they pull it off.

Mr. Orange 645 said:

What I read and comprehend is you say that it is absolutely and unequivocally impossible to increase battery maH without increasing the physical size of the battery. That it will NEVER happen with a Li-ion battery. That's what you said.

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That's not what I said. Try again.

sean76 said:

No need to go back and fourth...

Everyone is entitled to different opinions, earlier it looked like you and a few others felt it couldn't, and wouldn't be done...ever!

However...I think its safe to agree on a broad range that hopefully we'll see vast improvements in battery life in the next year.

I'd be really cool with a 2100mAh battery in the Nexus that doesn't really mess with design aesthetics in even the slightest. As in fitting perfectly with the stock battery cover. Hmmm, we shall see! I'm sure Seidio has something in the works.

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your correct seidio is coming out with an 3800 mah extended battery, only for the LTE version, im just worried bout how much bigger the phone will be.

seidioonline.com

Sean - Did you not like the 2100 battery ?? I know it's a small bump but it doesn't really add anything to the phone size wise