Printed Guns

Speed Daemon · Oct 4, 2012

Bob Maxey said:
I think I will disagree for the time being. Admittedly, I should not disagree because I am not an expert in this area.

We have water-jet cutters, laser cutters and 3D printers. As the tools develop, demands for better materials will likely bring all sorts of stuff to the workshop.

I can see extremely strong materials coming to a printer near you because the machine costs are cheap and I can see people wanting to forgot milling to take advantage of something any idiot can use.

Perhaps that is a big part of the problem

I agree. The big part of the problem is that the equipment that could do what is claimed exists only in people's imaginations.

kevincott · Oct 4, 2012

Bob Maxey said:
At Palm, we made case parts with a device like a 3D printer. Twin laser beams scanned a vat of polymers and where the laser beams crossed, the different frequency of the combined light hardened the plastic. We created all kinds of shapes including round areas that looked like tubes.

So barrels could be easily fashioned.

Do you really understand the pressures needed for a decent barrel? The idea behind firearms is the gunpowder burns/explodes and gasses expand. Expanding gasses have only one way to exit and push the bullet forward.

I do not know of any plastic on earth that could handle the pressures needed for a decent caliber/round. Even a .22SR (which has no power at all, barely more than a BB) would cause 99% of plastics to explode/melt on the spot. I seriously doubt that a 3D printer plastic is among the top 100 percentile in plastic strength technology (I could be wrong). If you made a .22SR barrel a foot thick in diameter, maybe, but it would be unusable (and still warp/melt).

If you used a .22SR on a squirrel he would look at you and say 'Hey, knock it off.'

Understand that a twisted/bent/melted barrel is a death trap to the shooter.

There are reasons why barrels are ALWAYS made from hardened steel. NO firearm sold has a plastic barrel.

Speed Daemon · Oct 4, 2012

Omar Days said:
It can't form complex machines. Guns and explosives have chemicals, moving parts. It doesn't work that way. But it can form solid metal shapes.

One of the many errors of omission is the inability to perform alchemy to make ammunition and parts that can withstand very high pressures.

When you consider that enterprising criminals have made crude firearms out of household items, the printer idea looks absurd. Like printing a 747 to save the price of a plane ticket.

Gmash · Oct 5, 2012

These printers are already pretty cheap, and will only get cheaper and better.

$2200
MakerBot Replicator

Bob Maxey · Oct 5, 2012

kevincott said:
Do you really understand the pressures needed for a decent barrel? The idea behind firearms is the gunpowder burns/explodes and gasses expand. Expanding gasses have only one way to exit and push the bullet forward.

I do not know of any plastic on earth that could handle the pressures needed for a decent caliber/round. Even a .22SR (which has no power at all, barely more than a BB) would cause 99% of plastics to explode/melt on the spot. I seriously doubt that a 3D printer plastic is among the top 100 percentile in plastic strength technology (I could be wrong). If you made a .22SR barrel a foot thick in diameter, maybe, but it would be unusable (and still warp/melt).

If you used a .22SR on a squirrel he would look at you and say 'Hey, knock it off.' Understand that a twisted/bent/melted barrel is a death trap to the shooter.

There are reasons why barrels are ALWAYS made from hardened steel. NO firearm sold has a plastic barrel.

I do understand the pressures required. I do know the plastics used by hobbyists that made objects with a 3D printer are not suitable for making guns and you do not need to explain the dangers of a melted barrel. I get it.

But we are talking about new technology and market demands and an increasing user base. Be it a 3D printer or laser cutter or even a computerized engraver that can be used to make small parts, the prices are dropping and the DIY crowd are developing tools that bring difficult manufacturing to the masses.

We have the equipment and it is getting less costly. Now, all that is left are the materials which a growing market will provide. There will be demands for materials that can easily withstand the pressures created when a gun discharges.

Your believing that it is impractical or impossible or assuming that I do not get it is as silly as not understanding that there are many materials out there and new ones on the way. Today, yes, the materials might be elusive, but you do not know. Vast amounts of materials are out there in the market. Next year, who knows what will happen.

Somewhere along the line, a system will arrive that lets you make parts like barrels from plastics or similar materials that WILL stand up to the pressure required.

As far as pressure is concerned, forget plastics and use ceramics. I can see a material aimed at hobbyists that is shipped soft. After machining with one of the desktop manufacturing stations, it is baked. Then you have a material that could handle the pressures that occur in something like a .50 caliber.

Or forget ceramics and revisit the plastic engines made in 1980 or so for professional racing motorsports. That specific developer is partnering with Huntsman Chemical to bring a plastic engine to market.

Just a matter of time.

Bob Maxey · Oct 5, 2012

Speed Daemon said:
One of the many errors of omission is the inability to perform alchemy to make ammunition and parts that can withstand very high pressures.

When you consider that enterprising criminals have made crude firearms out of household items, the printer idea looks absurd. Like printing a 747 to save the price of a plane ticket.

The ammo is not an issue. Why do you say it is impossible to make a plastic gun because there is no way to make the ammo? Are you kidding me?

And one can make ammo . . . it is called reloading. Cases are a bit more involved, I will grant you that.

It would be like saying you cannot build a plane because there is no way to crack your own oil. I know a man that has built several planes and he has yet to drill his own oil.

Materials will arrive that will likely handle the pressures in a typical gun. This is just a simple fact. I know a bit about plastics and this is something manufacturers are working on. There is a huge demand for high strength polymers and that is why they will arrive.

And when you consider how easy it is for criminals to make crude guns, it is true, but they did not have access to tools that make making a gun easier with every passing day. Zip guns are easy to make, after all.

Omar Days · Oct 5, 2012

Speed Daemon said:
One of the many errors of omission is the inability to perform alchemy to make ammunition and parts that can withstand very high pressures.

When you consider that enterprising criminals have made crude firearms out of household items, the printer idea looks absurd. Like printing a 747 to save the price of a plane ticket.

lol i was quoting Terminator 2

Speed Daemon · Oct 5, 2012

Omar Days said:
lol i was quoting Terminator 2

No matter what the source, it's a good point.

This topic is best summed up as much ado about nothing. It reminds me of the "electricity over IP" gag RFC.

Gmash · Oct 5, 2012

The October issue of Wired Magazine has a cover story about the 3D printer I linked to above. I can't find it online, but its a long, interesting article if anyone is interested in tracking it down.

SamuraiBigEd · Oct 5, 2012

Bob Maxey said:
All you need is a way to create a one time use machine gun and we have a problem

Boy how's that for an oxymoron!

JohnLaird · Oct 6, 2012

You would need a lathe and a milling machine...and someone with the proper skills. I would imagine that a full auto AK-47 would be quite a bit easier to manufacture than an AR-15. The AK was designed so that you could make it without an sophisticated/expensive manufacturing process (stamped metal and all). Which explains why it is a piece of junk.

I briefly tried full auto once (on a AR-15) and was somewhat disappointed. My impression is that it would be useful only for two things a)shooting at a crowd b)putting enough lead in the air to force someone to either take a random hit or get behind cover. If you want to actually hit the target consistently and reliably, put it on semi-auto. Full auto is overrated.

kevincott · Oct 6, 2012

JohnLaird said:
You would need a lathe and a milling machine...and someone with the proper skills. I would imagine that a full auto AK-47 would be quite a bit easier to manufacture than an AR-15. The AK was designed so that you could make it without an sophisticated/expensive manufacturing process (stamped metal and all). Which explains why it is a piece of junk.

I briefly tried full auto once (on a AR-15) and was somewhat disappointed. My impression is that it would be useful only for two things a)shooting at a crowd b)putting enough lead in the air to force someone to either take a random hit or get behind cover. If you want to actually hit the target consistently and reliably, put it on semi-auto. Full auto is overrated.

Full auto on an M16 is somewhat worthless, which is why 3-round burst came along. M16 auto is meant to hit-the-deck and not much more and the 5.56 NATO can't pentetrate.

True machine gunners have a asst-gunner that carries a spare barrel to compensate for the heat issue. M60s (7.62x51) were pretty beast but heavy, when I was active duty they were switching to SAWs (.223). Not sure how the SAWs' penetration fared.

Bob Maxey · Oct 6, 2012

SamuraiBigEd said:
Boy how's that for an oxymoron!

How so? I create a machine gun that can withstand fifty rounds and then it is tossed and I make another one. You know, use it once and that's that?

SamuraiBigEd · Oct 6, 2012

One does not think one time use (read single shot) and machine gun.

Bob Maxey · Oct 6, 2012

SamuraiBigEd said:
One does not think one time use (read single shot) and machine gun.

I do know that a machine gun fires multiple bullets.

Aren't you glad I did not say single shot one time use semi-automatic sub machine gun?:dancing2::dancing2:

SamuraiBigEd · Oct 6, 2012

Personally I would rather print something far more usable...like money!

Bob Maxey · Oct 6, 2012

SamuraiBigEd said:
Personally I would rather print something far more usable...like money!

I agree, there are better things to print. Not money perhaps, but some nice Pony Express covers or a nice set of Zeppelin issues would be nice.

Actually, some rare known forgeries. There are a few known forgeries notable for the forger who created them.

So how many years in prison can I expect for forging forgeries? I mean, I am not forging legitimate issues, just forgeries. Would the courts and jury go crazy?

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