How did they do this?

MoodyBlues · Apr 17, 2013

My phone (landline) rang, caller ID showed "California call," and an area code of 310 (here in the Los Angeles area). I answered it. It was a BLANKING telemarketer--yeah, right, that FTC no-call list sure does a lot of good! Anyway, she asked for Mr or Mrs [my mom's last name], at which point I said "who's calling?" (with a rather displeased tone of voice). She started rattling off "your house qualifies for" some garbage she was trying to sell, and when I TRIED to get a word in edgewise so I could tell her my mother died, she hung up. I immediately dialed the number back from caller ID. It rang twice and then did that unmistakable sound followed by, "we're sorry, you have reached a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service." WTF?

So how did they do this? Should I assume that they're not even lowlife telemarketers but actually scammers using some method of forging their phone number? Should I report this to the police...or anyone? :thinking:

zuben el genub · Apr 17, 2013

Called spoofing, very common. Apparently you can make any number appear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caller_ID_spoofing

I found some fake numbers from Canada on our fax log once. It was a spammer, but the calls were never billed to us.

LoopyD · Apr 17, 2013

That's very interesting to say the least. I didn't think cal spoofing existed I wonder if also a phone proxy would be in the mix? Just a guess...

dustwun77 · Apr 17, 2013

That's messed up.

There is a whole industry of people scamming and ripping people off. My aunt, in her 80's is always getting calls from people trying to take advantage of her.

I got a call once from one number, but the connection was lousy. I heard enough to know they were telling me I owed them some money (get in line)... Told them I couldn't hear them and they hung up and I got another call almost immediately, from a completely different area code. It was the same message though.

I read them the riot act and then I called the FBI and gave them the numbers. They listened courteously but I have no idea if they did anything with the info.

Scammers are definitely a peeve of mine.

Rxpert83 · Apr 17, 2013

Yup, there's been a number of spoof apps out for a at least 5 years

It can be funny as a prank on your friends, but the other uses you guys are describing would be terrible

LoopyD · Apr 17, 2013

I see the potential of an app like that, and nothing I can really think of that is pleasent

HOUSEKEEPING? xD

argedion · Apr 17, 2013

Those are the type of people I like to beat with a bull whip stretch them out over a bed of salt and pour more salt on their wounds and just when they about had enough I like to take a pair of pliers and start pulling the skin off of them all the while telling them that term limits is what they should have voted on and making jobs available in this country is what they should have voted on and oh wait were talking telephone scammers uh mmmm nevermind the last part

zuben el genub · Apr 17, 2013

That's why they can't really catch Heather and Rachel. Shut 'em down one spot, they pop up in another with a spoofed number.

MoodyBlues · Apr 17, 2013

Now that I think about it--and have read the replies, which refreshed my memory--I have heard of apps that spoof phone numbers. But since they'd have no place in legitimate business, my gut instinct that the call was from a scammer is probably correct. I mean, let's play this out.

They call an elderly homeowner. Said homeowner listens politely to their spiel. Homeowner is interested in the products/services being offered, or becomes that way after being strong-armed by caller. Something happens now--an appointment is scheduled for the 'company' to come out to the house [to give an estimate, whatever]. If this 'company' is legitimate, wouldn't they WANT the homeowner to have their phone number? What possible reason could there be for a legitimate business to spoof their phone number? I can't think of anything.

This actually makes me really mad. I can only imagine how many old people fall for scammers anyway, but then the added bullshit of having a spoofed phone number...

sfbloodbrother · Apr 17, 2013

Yeah, there's an app somewhere on the play store that can change the number that shows up on caller id on the others persons phone. They won't get the real number. Technology these days. Honestly, I don't answer many calls from numbers I don't know. They best leave a message so I know who it is before I answer. That's the way I think of it. Either that or they can message me.

pbf98 · Apr 17, 2013

I know of some websites where you can enter someones phone number and then a number that you want the phone to say and it will leave a pre recorded message, which when calling friends can be a little laugh, but using something like that for other reason like scamming is wrong.

If i remember correctly there are some questions that true telemarketers have to answer and they were like
what is your name
who do you work for
are you aware of the national do not call list
are you aware that I am on that list
do you have a list so I am not to be called again

I have heard of people recording these conversations and taking the companies to small claims court. I haven't done any research on it myself but I have heard of it

MoodyBlues · Apr 17, 2013

sfbloodbrother said:
Honestly, I don't answer many calls from numbers I don't know. They best leave a message so I know who it is before I answer. That's the way I think of it. Either that or they can message me.

I'm usually pretty much the same way, but since my mother's death I've just routinely answered all calls, even those whose numbers/names I don't recognize, because it could be related to her somehow--even if it's a sales call. I had one recently from a remodeling company--apparently, a year or so ago they had called and Mom told them they should call back in the future to see if she wanted anything done. So they did!

I think I'm going to change the recording on my answering machine to say something like: "This number is on the FTC's do not call list. If you're breaking the law by calling this number, hang up now and we won't prosecute." :mad:

mikedt · Apr 17, 2013

MoodyBlues said:
Now that I think about it--and have read the replies, which refreshed my memory--I have heard of apps that spoof phone numbers. But since they'd have no place in legitimate business, my gut instinct that the call was from a scammer is probably correct. I mean, let's play this out.

They call an elderly homeowner. Said homeowner listens politely to their spiel. Homeowner is interested in the products/services being offered, or becomes that way after being strong-armed by caller. Something happens now--an appointment is scheduled for the 'company' to come out to the house [to give an estimate, whatever]. If this 'company' is legitimate, wouldn't they WANT the homeowner to have their phone number? What possible reason could there be for a legitimate business to spoof their phone number? I can't think of anything.

This actually makes me really mad. I can only imagine how many old people fall for scammers anyway, but then the added bullshit of having a spoofed phone number...

I used to get it a lot in the UK on my land-line. Always trying to sell holidays, cruises or time-share. Often the same hard-sell spiel and BS, but they were always after a credit card number to "confirm" the booking....NO chance, but a lot of people would fall for it though. These calls often appeared to originate from the States, sometimes the caller ID would show a +1-xxx-xxx-xxxx number, and they would always seem to have American type accents.

I sometimes get it on my cell-phone, usually from a Fujian Province area code, trying to sell me tea of all things. As if I really want to buy tea from a cold caller LOL, or that I've "won" an iPad....Sure!. But as soon as I go back at them in English, they soon give up. :rolleyes:

Speed Daemon · Apr 18, 2013

Here in Wisconsin we have our own separate do not call list. Even though I'm on two separate lists I still get at least one or two calls a day from "800 Number". When I pick up the phone I get a dead line. If I let it go to voice mail there's never a message. And the phone number is bogus as well.

I've read a lot about telecommunications, including a 20 book volume about the Bell System's first 100 years. One thing that stands out is that the biggest advances in telephony have come in the billing systems more so than the call handling equipment. To make a long story short, there's no way that CallerID spoofing could take place without the consent and cooperation of the telephone companies. I think it's a pretty good guess that they're making their own profits off of selling the ability to spoof to their business customers.

MoodyBlues · Apr 18, 2013

Speed Daemon said:
Here in Wisconsin we have our own separate do not call list.

There's probably one here in California, too--but those should be unnecessary, right?! You'd think a FEDERAL do not call list would suffice.

Even though I'm on two separate lists I still get at least one or two calls a day from "800 Number". When I pick up the phone I get a dead line. If I let it go to voice mail there's never a message. And the phone number is bogus as well.

Yeah, I've had a lot of those, too. Only mine are usually from "Toll free number."

You know what's weird? I've had a few calls in the last week or two with prefixes 164 and 184. Prefixes, as in 164-xxxx and 184-xxxx; they're displayed that way on caller ID, so they're [ostensibly] within my area code. Caller ID on those says "Name not found."

I've read a lot about telecommunications, including a 20 book volume

about the Bell System's first 100 years. One thing that stands out is that the biggest advances in telephony have come in the billing systems more so than the call handling equipment. To make a long story short, there's no way that CallerID spoofing could take place without the consent and cooperation of the telephone companies. I think it's a pretty good guess that they're making their own profits off of selling the ability to spoof to their business customers.

I'd love to hear more about that. Do you feel like providing a condensed version for those of us who aren't going to read a 20 book volume about it?!

mikedt · Apr 18, 2013

Don't know about anywhere else, but I've found that Skype Out calls can do some unexpected things with the phone numbers that show up. When friends call me from the UK using Skype out, I'll often see 010-xxxxxxxx(Beijing), 021-xxxxxxxx(Shanghai) or even 00852-xxxxxxxx(Hong Kong), and this is for calls coming from the UK. Occasionally I'll see "Unknown number" as I would expect with a Skype Out VOIP call.

Perhaps the scammers are using a VOIP service like Skype Out to spoof the numbers?

MoodyBlues · Apr 18, 2013

mikedt said:
Don't know about anywhere else, but I've found that Skype Out calls can do some unexpected things with the phone numbers that show up. When friends call me from the UK using Skype out, I'll often see 010-xxxxxxxx(Beijing), 021-xxxxxxxx(Shanghai) or even 00852-xxxxxxxxx(Hong Kong), and this is for calls coming from the UK. Occasionally I'll see "Unknown number" as I would expect with a Skype Out VOIP call.

Perhaps the scammers are using a VOIP service like Skype Out to spoof the numbers?

Interesting theory. :hmmmm:

Speed Daemon · Apr 18, 2013

MoodyBlues said:
I'd love to hear more about that. Do you feel like providing a condensed version for those of us who aren't going to read a 20 book volume about it?!

Better read fast, in case this is judged to be political or something else unacceptable.

Even VoIP calls eventually go over the Public Switched Telephone Network. To place a call on the PSTN, the Central Office (CO) where the call originates sends a packet of data to the CO where the other party's phone is terminated. At the very least, this data must include the actual originating number, the number being called and some accounting information. That means that the CO where your POTs phone is wired to, or where your VoIP or cellular call is being terminated absolutely must know the caller's true phone number no matter what.

The secret is that the Automatic Number Identification device that phone companies use to route phone calls isn't necessarily the same data that goes into Caller ID signals. As a rule, Caller ID can be spoofed, but ANI can't be spoofed while still getting the call through to its intended recipient because ANI data is used for billing purposes. In other words, the phone companies know when Caller ID spoofing is being done, and could fix the data if they wanted to.

I suspect that one reason why Caller ID, which used to be an optional extra charge feature, is now "free" is because the phone companies have agreed to do this for their more profitable commercial customers. By making it "free", customers who get spoofed Caller ID data have no legal recourse when they receive fraudulent data. And since it's the commercial customers doing the actual spoofing, that gives the phone companies plausible deniability even though they're complicit. No, I can't prove it.

MoodyBlues · Apr 18, 2013

Speed Daemon said:
Better read fast, in case this is judged to be political or something else unacceptable.

Hey, as long as there's no mention of that well known politician, Annette Funicello, I don't think it'll get moved. :laugh:

Even VoIP calls eventually go over the Public Switched Telephone Network. To place a call on the PSTN, the Central Office (CO) where the call originates sends a packet of data to the CO where the other party's phone is terminated. At the very least, this data must include the actual originating number, the number being called and some accounting information. That means that the CO where your POTs phone is wired to, or where your VoIP or cellular call is being terminated absolutely must know the caller's true phone number no matter what.

The secret is that the Automatic Number Identification device that phone companies use to route phone calls isn't necessarily the same data that goes into Caller ID signals. As a rule, Caller ID can be spoofed, but ANI can't be spoofed while still getting the call through to its intended recipient because ANI data is used for billing purposes. In other words, the phone companies know when Caller ID spoofing is being done, and could fix the data if they wanted to.

I suspect that one reason why Caller ID, which used to be an optional extra charge feature, is now "free" is because the phone companies have agreed to do this for their more profitable commercial customers. By making it "free", customers who get spoofed Caller ID data have no legal recourse when they receive fraudulent data. And since it's the commercial customers doing the actual spoofing, that gives the phone companies plausible deniability even though they're complicit. No, I can't prove it.

Wow. That's some pretty disconcerting stuff. Thanks for summarizing the issue.

tommo47 · Apr 18, 2013

MoodyBlues said:
My phone (landline) rang, caller ID showed "California call," and an area code of 310 (here in the Los Angeles area). I answered it. It was a BLANKING telemarketer--yeah, right, that FTC no-call list sure does a lot of good! Anyway, she asked for Mr or Mrs [my mom's last name], at which point I said "who's calling?" (with a rather displeased tone of voice). She started rattling off "your house qualifies for" some garbage she was trying to sell, and when I TRIED to get a word in edgewise so I could tell her my mother died, she hung up. I immediately dialed the number back from caller ID. It rang twice and then did that unmistakable sound followed by, "we're sorry, you have reached a number that has been disconnected or is no longer in service." WTF?

So how did they do this? Should I assume that they're not even lowlife telemarketers but actually scammers using some method of forging their phone number? Should I report this to the police...or anyone?

Hi, did you google the number?

I don't have caller ID but use the 1471 facility to recover the number and then google it, provided that 1471 hasn't been blocked of course. The google results can be quite interesting and sometimes will identify the company concerned. There are also lists of known cold calling numbers.

On the point of spoofing, the fact that you got ring tone means that it could have simply been the number shown on your Caller ID, but with an answering machine with a deliberately misleading, 'official' sounding message.

I know this is still frustrating and damned annoying at the best of times, but especially for you at this time, something you could really do without.

It might still be worth a google though, you might just get a hit, track them down and give some 'appropriate' feedback.

Scootmien · Apr 18, 2013

I'm in the UK, and I use a website called http://whocallsme.com/ that acts as a user database of numbers for spoofers, scammers, telemarketers and so on. It's a very useful site to have for those (seemingly increasing) occasions where a spoof/scam call comes through. I get one or two a day now.

You can use this site in the USA too I believe as it seems to be world wide.

Speed Daemon · Apr 18, 2013

MoodyBlues said:
Wow. That's some pretty disconcerting stuff. Thanks for summarizing the issue.

It is a good indicator that private citizens are increasingly at the mercy of large corporate interests. I use Vonage for my phone service, and IIRC at one time they used to have a number blocking feature. One of the reasons why I signed up with them in fact. Now that they're big and successful, that feature is nowhere to be found.

Cellular companies make untold profits from charging their customers airtime fees for calls that they don't want. And like Vonage, I have yet to see a cellular carrier that offers call blocking. If there are no alternatives, we're pretty much trapped by their hegemony. We can't hide from marketeering anywhere anymore.

zuben el genub · Apr 18, 2013

Might need a salt shaker - I've seen this other places:
Privacy 101: Skype Leaks Your Location — Krebs on Security
I've read in other places that MS wants to put ads on Skype that you are "supposed" to discuss.

Seeing articles - again salt shaker- where telemarketer threatened mayhem.
They do get angry.
I had VISA pestering at work for a commercial account. Our business depended on checks. My boss finally took the call. Two minutes later I got a very enraged lady ont the phone telling me to "tell that man to stick it up his own GD " The calls did stop.

I've heard them scream when accidently answering a candy bar phone when pulling it out of a holster. Don't give me the nonsense "they could need help" They have a toll free number showing! Call your local 9-1-1.

Some of the bad debt calls have been known to threaten bodily harm. These people buy the bad debts 3rd or 4th hand for pennies on the dollar. If you are unlucky enough to have the same number the debtor had (cell co recycled) - you are out of luck. Change the number.
If your name is similar or the debtor had a relative with a name like yours - there are rules and protocols that are supposed to be followed. Some of these collectors will threaten bodily harm. Report them to authorities. You still might have to change your number.

If your neighbor has issues, they are likely to pester you to get at the neighbor. This works with a land line.

Your local politcal, charity, and surveys are exempt. Lousy spoofing of all categories. If you have done business with pest company, they are exempt.
Problem is, a subsidiary of said company claims to call under the same rule.

Cell makes it a lot easier for users to deal with crap. If you see any ads or propositions to get a directory for cell numbers - go scream to every public protection agency you can!

MoodyBlues · Apr 18, 2013

tommo47 said:
Hi, did you google the number?

No. I have in the past, but didn't with this one. I've already deleted it from he handset I usually use, but it'll still be on the others, so I may do that.

I don't have caller ID but use the 1471 facility to recover the number and then google it, provided that 1471 hasn't been blocked of course. The google results can be quite interesting and sometimes will identify the company concerned. There are also lists of known cold calling numbers.

I'm guessing that 1471 is not a US thing, correct? Is it analogous to our *69 feature (last call return)?

On the point of spoofing, the fact that you got ring tone means that it could have simply been the number shown on your Caller ID, but with an answering machine with a deliberately misleading, 'official' sounding message.

Wow! Good point, and one I had definitely not thought about. As I recall, it rang a couple times and then went to the 'this number has been disconnected' message--which could very well have been a message on an answering machine/voice mail.

I know this is still frustrating and damned annoying at the best of times, but especially for you at this time, something you could really do without.

Thank you.

It might still be worth a google though, you might just get a hit, track them down and give some 'appropriate' feedback.

I LOVE giving 'appropriate' feedback! :laugh:

tommo47 · Apr 19, 2013

I'm guessing that 1471 is not a US thing, correct? Is it analogous to our *69 feature (last call return)?

Hi,

Yes, I think so. 1471 is a free service from BT. Keyed in at any time it will give you the number and date/time of the last caller and the option to return the call with a single key press. The function can be blocked by the caller using a prefix 141.

How did they do this?

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