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HTC One M9 Professional Reviews

@SolApathy

I don't think they had much of a hard time keeping the M9 design a secret ;)

I also completely agree that this could be an "emperor's new clothes" story where one reviewer who can't take photos says the camera is terrible and get's a huge amount of website hits.

The others who think the camera is fine won't get any hits for saying "The camera is fine" so they also fabricate some terrible photos to latch on to the bandwagon and make sure people consider them as a competent reviewer.

-most likely! a rather uncanny technique to get more hits
 
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I'm not a fanboy of HTC and I've used the camera more this past year than ever. I'm not happy after buying the M7/M8....period. When you want to take great pictures I think most people want to point and shoot. Nobody has time to make a ton of adjustments to the settings for one photo.

I'll either get an S6 or wait for the M10. I think the S6 will outsell the M9 by afar from reading through reviews and forums. People who dropped Samsung for the M9 will go back. I say that because people will see everyone with their S6 and feel left out.

I do like the M9's setting for double tap to turn off. Won't need to search for that power button. With tap to turn off that power button placement is almost a moot point.
 
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They said the same thing about the M8 camera..And as you can see 2 posts above, when it was finally released to the public a strange thing happened...People that knew how to take pictures without using digital zoom, and using the correct exposure settings took some good pictures. I truly do wonder if the folks taking the original pictures for the M9 took bad ones on purpose. There is so much noise and the exposure is all wrong. It looks as if they were using the digital zoom feature (worst feature on any phone) to try and take pictures.

T, we seem to be hearing the the same thing over and over in the threads here. I believe everyone is clear that you don't understand why they had an unfinished product at the show. The simple truth is, a lot of companies do it. Most of them don't admit it, but there is still a lot of QC going on in the background right up to release day. I am sure you will post again saying the same thing "Why, oh why" but regurgitating the same statement you have posted in multiple threads really isn't accomplishing much. If the phone is not for you, than it's not for you. There are plenty of other great devices out there. Samsung has a strong phone, of course it's hard to tell if someone is holding a S6 or an IPhone if you are more than 10 feet away with that design they used.

Now why is it so hard to release a perfect device on launch day? With software you have a distinct advantage because you can have it beta tested by thousands of users (and they still manage to screw it up-Especially games). With hardware that is under wraps it becomes much more complicated, especially when adding new tech & implementing it with a new major revision of Android that was only released in November. You have only a few people that can test it, and even those few folks have a hard time keeping the new device design a secret. Enough said. Wait for the phone to be released to the public, then judge it on it's merits, not based on some journalists that are looking to be the next big story.
I'm going to say this much. Probably 99% of the population aren't photographers. That's why the pictures aren't perfect. There are some things you have to work at when using a smartphone but a camera shouldn't be one of them. I doubt people who first reviewed the phone took bad photos on purpose. They probably treat all the other phones they review the same way in regard to how they take pictures. More or less, they did what was natural for instance if they were using a real digital camera. That's the standard HTC should strive for in my opinion or close to it. Their camera should be that simple and hard to mess up a photo. How are you going to outsell your competitors when my 60 year old mother has no clue about how to shoot a great picture with your smartphone camera? That's what buyers and even reviewers want to see. Point and shoot = most perfect picture.
 
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I'm going to say this much. Probably 99% of the population aren't photographers. That's why the pictures aren't perfect. There are some things you have to work at when using a smartphone but a camera shouldn't be one of them. I doubt people who first reviewed the phone took bad photos on purpose. They probably treat all the other phones they review the same way in regard to how they take pictures. More or less, they did what was natural for instance if they were using a real digital camera. That's the standard HTC should strive for in my opinion or close to it. Their camera should be that simple and hard to mess up a photo. How are you going to outsell your competitors when my 60 year old mother has no clue about how to shoot a great picture with your smartphone camera? That's what buyers and even reviewers want to see. Point and shoot = most perfect picture.

You're 100% right. Look at those early reviews and comparisons. None of the reviewers are actually messing around with settings trying to find the best configuration for each setting. They are just pointing and clicking the way most people do when they take pics with their phones. The do the same exact thing with other phones. Maybe under the exact right circumstances the M9 can take pics like those from the S6. The point is, you shouldn't have to tinker with it that much just to get a reasonable standard.
 
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You're 100% right. Look at those early reviews and comparisons. None of the reviewers are actually messing around with settings trying to find the best configuration for each setting. They are just pointing and clicking the way most people do when they take pics with their phones. The do the same exact thing with other phones. Maybe under the exact right circumstances the M9 can take pics like those from the S6. The point is, you shouldn't have to tinker with it that much just to get a reasonable standard.
For me all the settings they include with the camera are almost too much. Makes me wonder who uses all of those settings? But I understand maybe that's what the masses want. I think editing features are okay.

I never use the front camera but accidentally activated it. Took me a minute to get the camera back to the rear. I just hadn't used the front camera in a long time in order to easily switch it back.
 
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I'd like more controls actually (e.g. separate sharpening & noise reduction, adjust compression), though appreciate the ones they have. Of course I rarely change them, but it does let me set it up better (HTC's default settings always overdo some things, to the detriment of the image). In contrast I've never used the editing or the scene modes - different strokes etc.

I know what you mean about unfamiliar options - I used the video camera the other week, for about the 4th time ever, and it took me a couple of attempts to revert successfully.
 
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Seems all the reviewers agree that the phone is an improvement over last year (though not as much as hoped in some areas), but the camera seems to be the one sticking point for everyone. The only question I have is if any of the reviews are actually based on the update that supposedly addressed camera and overheating problems. I watched the Verge review and he mentioned using it for two weeks. Unless I'm mistaken the software update hasn't been finished that long. It would be unfortunate for HTC if they actually did significantly improve camera performance, but it will be overlooked because all the reviews assess it before those improvements were implemented. The blame goes to them though. Really, the camera was the only major change they really needed to make, so it should have been as flawless as they could possibly get it.
 
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So because it has no OIS it's going to take bad pictures? Does our M8 have the OIS? I take pictures to post on facebook nothing big to print out or anything but I also video alot when I'm out hearing my friends play in the band and it does good now and sounds good. It says this does 4K video is thay good? I have it worked out to get this phone now and I'm excited now. I've been watching videos and I think it's enough change for us to upgrade. We'll see once we get it.
 
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The M8 has Ultra Pixels. That's why it can take good low light. The whole idea of Ultra Pixels is that larger pixels take in more light. The 20mp sensor occupies about the same footprint as the 4mp UP sensor. So the pixels are much smaller. Smaller pixels means less light. That's why the M9 pictures are grainy in low light. And that will never ever ever be fixed by software -- it is a physical limit.
 
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The M8 has Ultra Pixels. That's why it can take good low light. The whole idea of Ultra Pixels is that larger pixels take in more light. The 20mp sensor occupies about the same footprint as the 4mp UP sensor. So the pixels are much smaller. Smaller pixels means less light. That's why the M9 pictures are grainy in low light. And that will never ever ever be fixed by software -- it is a physical limit.
You're talking about ideal physical limits.

Before concluding that software can't change anything, it's probably important to note that compression and image processing of the raw sensor data plays a very big role in final picture quality - and HTC has typically over compressed images.

I know that you know that. :) ;)

So to get into sensor noise before knowing what degradations are occurring due to processing really requires a lot of assumptions about what the major contributions are.

Image processing is very much impacted by upgradeable software.

Anandtech said in their cursory review of the new update, part 1, that the camera improved and they'll cover that in the upcoming part 2 of the new software review.

I use two root-modded versions of the HTC camera on my M8. One lets you dial back jpeg compression, the other outputs raw sensor data to post process on a pc. The difference in image quality, especially with the last one (I admit, it's the extreme use case) is pretty big.

And that's a software change.

So until we see more about the update from multiple sources, I for one am not willing to write off what software can do.

Btw - I've seen the results of that first same mod with an LG G3 and a Samsung S4. In each case, it was a welcome improvement.

Software matters. :)
 
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Early, "improvement" is one thing. "Improvements" can happen from software. And yes, compression and processing may be introducing grain or other elements that aren't in the sensor image. But realistically, a 20mp sensor with 1.12 micron pixels without the benefit of OIS for longer shutter speeds isn't going to capture a lot of image information in low light. The "improvements" will likely be a better balance between grain and smearing, but software isn't going to help the sensor capture more picture detail. I thought it was interesting that after two years of preaching about the benefits of pixel size, HTC went the exactly other way and opted for a 20mp sensor. Almost like, "you want more pixels? HERE YA GO AND STOP BUGGING ME!" But the very things HTC railed against in the UMP days (high MP sensors with tiny pixels making grainy images) are the very things hurting the M9 camera.
 
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Early, "improvement" is one thing. "Improvements" can happen from software. And yes, compression and processing may be introducing grain or other elements that aren't in the sensor image. But realistically, a 20mp sensor with 1.12 micron pixels without the benefit of OIS for longer shutter speeds isn't going to capture a lot of image information in low light. The "improvements" will likely be a better balance between grain and smearing, but software isn't going to help the sensor capture more picture detail. I thought it was interesting that after two years of preaching about the benefits of pixel size, HTC went the exactly other way and opted for a 20mp sensor. Almost like, "you want more pixels? HERE YA GO AND STOP BUGGING ME!" But the very things HTC railed against in the UMP days (high MP sensors with tiny pixels making grainy images) are the very things hurting the M9 camera.
Yeah, I don't disagree for obvious reasons.

I'm just saying that if processing noise >> sensor noise, then it's too soon to say who will be happy with what once folks get to try them out.

I'll even predict that we're going to see a number of low light shots being taken with the FFC and the phone turned around. :D

I've read a lot about reducing sensor noise from smaller pixels from another brand's marketing.

I have an open mind about that because I haven't seen it yet. I neither believe nor disbelieve that it makes a real world difference.

As for pixel size, pretty sure that this is the sensor used in the M9, and supports Cobravision's reference to the 1.12 micron size -

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...T4KA7_ProdBrief.pdf+&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
 
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Seems all the reviewers agree that the phone is an improvement over last year (though not as much as hoped in some areas), but the camera seems to be the one sticking point for everyone. The only question I have is if any of the reviews are actually based on the update that supposedly addressed camera and overheating problems. I watched the Verge review and he mentioned using it for two weeks. Unless I'm mistaken the software update hasn't been finished that long. It would be unfortunate for HTC if they actually did significantly improve camera performance, but it will be overlooked because all the reviews assess it before those improvements were implemented. The blame goes to them though. Really, the camera was the only major change they really needed to make, so it should have been as flawless as they could possibly get it.
The update hit late last Thursday.

Anandtech has part 1 of the review of the final software up, we were discussing some of it beginning here -

http://androidforums.com/threads/co...ame-sales-trap-as-the-s5.907842/#post-6921136

Part 2 will have the camera review, you can see over there that I quoted the teaser that it's an improvement.
 
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The update hit late last Thursday.

Anandtech has part 1 of the review of the final software up, we were discussing some of it beginning here -

http://androidforums.com/threads/co...ame-sales-trap-as-the-s5.907842/#post-6921136

Part 2 will have the camera review, you can see over there that I quoted the teaser that it's an improvement.

Yeah, the Pocketnow review is with the final software too, and they still say the camera sucks in mid to low level situations.


On the flipside, the move of the M8 cam to the front of the M9 basically means that the M9 has one of the best front cams on the market. I know most people don't care about that as much, but for me it's a very good thing. I use the front came every weekend for my daughter to Skype with my parents and travel frequently at times and use hangouts with my wife.
 
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For low-light I'm still waiting to see a review with current software where they turn the sharpening down (which with HTC's camera app also turns the noise reduction down). The BGR review explicitly said that the software update confirmed to them that the problem with the camera wasn't the sensor but the software, so I'd like to see how much further that can go since I'd say that the worst thing in the night shots I've seen is the noise reduction.

Would also be curious to see what the shots are like when you reduce the image size (and potentially take advantage of oversampling at night).
 
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