Alarm not working when phone switched off?

Smartphones use a complex Operating System to run everything, in the same way as a computer does. The Hero uses Android, my previous smartphones used Windows Mobile. And comparing it with a computer is a good analogy. My Hero has over 250 times the RAM and storage capacity of my first Windows PC. And it can do quicker everything that computer could do, and then a lot more.

So when the Power is off so is the operating system, and without that system nothing functions. It still has an internal clock, like a computer, but can't do anything with it until the OS is switched back on, like a computer. AFAIK all modern smartphones are like that - certainly those running Android & WM, not sure about Symbian or iphone, but I expect others will tell you. It is like expecting a modern computer to somehow function when it is switched off (as opposed to being in hibernation mode). It aint going to happen.

I must say that I am really having difficulty seeing the problem here. Switch it "off", i.e. onto standby, and the alarm will still work. If you want to save power or not have any phone calls overnight you can put it into airplane mode. It can do a lot more than your previous phones, but it does require you to use it in different ways occassionally.

If you want to have a phone that is going to function reliably for periods longer than a day or so without power (camping etc) then any smartphone is not right for you, and that is not just because of an alarm clock function. They are all power hungry and require regular charging if they are going to work at all. Buy a USB car charger (if you are in a car), or a simpler phone that will have better battery life. Or there is always a travel alarm clock .

My last phone that did it was a symbian system phone.
Im not complaining, i know i can use aeroplane mode, just it seemed as though you were trying to clear up on what people were meaning by the definition of 'off'.

Also you CAN ask modern computers to turn themselves on. Its called Wake on Lan.
Even if the computer is off there is still a minute amount of power flowing through the circuits. Same goes for a mobile phone i would have thought.

EDIT: After giving it more thought, i think this is more a hardware issue than a software. The way it works on computers is that the internal clock is constantly recieving power, when the clock counts to its alarm (or recieves a signal from LAN) the clock then issues the command to boot. I assume this was the same way it worked with my Symbian phone.

EDIT 2: does the hero use a qualcomm chipset? If so then i think the hardware supports it, and that the operating system once given the command to shut down needs to be able to tell the chipset that there is an alarm pending and to wake at a specific time. Further info is here
http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=1942

FINAL EDIT (I promise): It appears that the hardware is there, but Google will not impliment it (view the posts down the bottom of the above link). The device manufacturers play a part since they have the underlying system code that tells the OS to boot etc. If google wont impliment it then they wont either.

At least that is how i understand it.

Lefthand said:

Am I the only one having this problem? I'm quite new to this handset, but I can't see what I'm doing wrong. the alarm only goes off if the phone is left switched on. Any ideas?

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mine does this also..from sleep mode,not even in off mode.i noticed that when i picked the phone up at 5.30 am,for a second the clock was on 1.10 am..no wonder the alarm didnt go off...why is it losing its bearings like this?

02keilj said:

I assume this was the same way it worked with my Symbian phone.

Further info is here
Issue 1942 - android - Alarms don't work if phone is off - Project Hosting on Google Code

It appears that the hardware is there, but Google will not impliment it (view the posts down the bottom of the above link).

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Thanks for this link and it makes interesting reading, especially the reasons that Google have given for declining to implement this. I must admit I had not thought about wake on Lan systems. However I think your point about Symbian is telling as is somebody else saying that the iphone can do this.

The fact is that Symbain and the iphone are platforms developed by one company for use in that company's phones only. Google and WM are open platforms. Software is designed to be used in lots of platforms. That gives, I suspect pros and cons when compared with symbian etc. IMHO the pros far outweigh the cons.

tool said:

mine does this also..from sleep mode,not even in off mode.i noticed that when i picked the phone up at 5.30 am,for a second the clock was on 1.10 am..no wonder the alarm didnt go off...why is it losing its bearings like this?

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Sounds more like you might be using a task killer which killed the alarm. You have to set task killers to ignore alarms otherwise they will kill them when in sleep mode. As for the clock showin 1:10am, that is just because when in sleep mode the OS does not refresh the clocks displayed time. Only when you activate the phone my turning the screen on will it then refresh the clock. It still knows what time it is, it just doesnt display the time when the phone is off.

Sometimes I just can't believe what I'm reading.

If you switch your phone off, it won't do anything. A lot of phones, usually not smartphones, can be switched into standby mode. These phones allow alarms to ring when they are "off", as they are not actually off.

If you really think that your phone rings alarms when it's "off", try setting the alarm, turn the phone "off", REMOVE THE BATTERY, and then see if it alarms without a battery in it. If it does, take it to an exorcist.

Most smartphones, Android, iPhone, etc, have a sleep mode, to save power while you're not using it. As somebody suggested, if you want to save power without disabling the alarm, use airplane mode, turn off GPS, etc.

TBH, accepting that you have to charge your phone every night is part of owning a smartphone.

JimR123 said:

Sometimes I just can't believe what I'm reading.

If you switch your phone off, it won't do anything. A lot of phones, usually not smartphones, can be switched into standby mode. These phones allow alarms to ring when they are "off", as they are not actually off.

If you really think that your phone rings alarms when it's "off", try setting the alarm, turn the phone "off", REMOVE THE BATTERY, and then see if it alarms without a battery in it. If it does, take it to an exorcist.

Most smartphones, Android, iPhone, etc, have a sleep mode, to save power while you're not using it. As somebody suggested, if you want to save power without disabling the alarm, use airplane mode, turn off GPS, etc.

TBH, accepting that you have to charge your phone every night is part of owning a smartphone.

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Dude, seriously...Nokia N95 and many many other (if not all) symbian phones i have owned can sound alarms when they are OFF*. The symbian OS tells the internal bios (which is what tells the phone to boot when you press an on button) that an alarm needs to sound at a certain time. It therefore boots the phone a minute or two before the alarm is due to go off.
In this state the OS is not running at all, it is the bios (which is what loads your OS on your PC).
Ofcourse they wont sound when the battery is taken out because there is no power at all.



*Off being a state in which the OS is not running, there is no response from any buttons, no signal is being transmitted. Nothing. If you want it to do anything in this state you must turn it ON by pressing the on button

02keilj said:

Dude, seriously...Nokia N95 and many many other (if not all) symbian phones i have owned can sound alarms when they are OFF*. The symbian OS tells the internal bios (which is what tells the phone to boot when you press an on button) that an alarm needs to sound at a certain time. It therefore boots the phone a minute or two before the alarm is due to go off.
In this state the OS is not running at all, it is the bios (which is what loads your OS on your PC).
Ofcourse they wont sound when the battery is taken out because there is no power at all.



*Off being a state in which the OS is not running, there is no response from any buttons, no signal is being transmitted. Nothing. If you want it to do anything in this state you must turn it ON by pressing the on button

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I guess we're really just arguing the definition of the word "off". To me, off means "dead, with no life or ability to do anything, or use power".

The idea that an "off" device can do something contradicts that definition of the word "off", IMHO. It's either on or off. "On" things can do stuff, "off" things can't.

If "off" means it can trigger an alarm all on it's own, what do you call it when the phone can't trigger alarms?

A phone which can be booted at a pre-specified time by the bios (which in turn must have it's own source of power) isn't techincally off, unless you turn the bios off too. All you're doing is turning off the OS, not the entire phone. It's like a super low energy standby mode. The manufacturers label a button as "off" or "power" to make it more user-friendly. Doesn't make it actually off though.

There's an "off" button on the remote control of my old VCR, but it doesn't turn it off as I can still see the clock running on the front. The VCR still responds if I point the remote at it and press the "on" button. It's not "off" at all, just in a low power mode. Same kinda thing as with some phones, I guess.

Dude.

I really think this thread has probably run its course now. We now have our answer to the OP's problem. With the Hero, just like every other Android phone, "Power off" means everything off, including the alarm, whether we like it or not. And if you look at the thread kindly linked by 02keilj you will see that Google's Android development team says that is not going to change in the foreseeable future. And to be frank I don't disagree with that. I would much rather they spent there time doing more important stuff like giving me a decent Bluetooth that actually works properly. But is doesn't matter what you or I think because Google have spoken.

In any event there is an easy get-around for the alarm. Just don't power off your phone when you have an alarm set. If you are worried about battery use put it in airplane mode (see previous) - in my experience power drain on that mode is negligible. Or you can just leave it plugged in all night.

And if your alarm won't work even on standby/airplane mode then it is because you have a task killer not properly set up, or you have an old version of the ROM, or your phone is, to use a technical term, ****** .

peterc10 said:

The fact is that Symbain and the iphone are platforms developed by one company for use in that company's phones only. Google and WM are open platforms. Software is designed to be used in lots of platforms. That gives, I suspect pros and cons when compared with symbian etc. IMHO the pros far outweigh the cons.

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Not true I'm afraid. Symbian is indeed now owned by one company - Nokia, but it was developed by several - Nokia, Ericsson (which became Sony Ericsson). Psion, Motorola. It has been used in mobile phones from most of these companies, many of which are still on the market. So in some respects Symbian OS has more in common with Android - developed for use on several platforms - than it does with iPhone. Symbian is a least as "open" as WM and, now it has been open sourced, it is becoming as open as Android.

Regards

Pete

petefoth said:

Not true I'm afraid...

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I think he's right in as much as it was originally developed, as Epoc, by a single company, Psion, to work on their hardware only, mostly PDAs; whereas WCE, WM and Android were always destined for devices from different manufacturers.

mpw said:

I think he's right in as much as it was originally developed, as Epoc, by a single company, Psion, to work on their hardware only, mostly PDAs; whereas WCE, WM and Android were always destined for devices from different manufacturers.

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Let's agree to differ shall we?

I'm looking for an app that does this too, and i'm sick of sneery people replying saying that this isnt possible and the person must be mis-taken.

I have never heard of a 'sleep' setting on a phone ...when i hold the power button the phone switches off...dead...no function.

The alarm clock i set before i turned it off will activate anyway the next morning waking me and conserving at least a whole 8 hours of standby time on the battery which is a lot when you think of how crap batteries are on todays wifi 3g gps large screened phones.

Furthermore people giving out about what a crap feature this is ....seriously? If you dont like it fine dont use it but for me this is an essential feature and my only complaint so far with my android phone.

So if an alarm clock app exists that will sound when the phone is turned off and can be set to go off mon - fri and does not need to be launced all the time that just runs continusiously just in case i forget to turn it on i for one (and many i reckon) would love it.

eoin31 said:

...whole 8 hours of standby time on the battery which is a lot when you think of how crap batteries are on todays wifi 3g gps large screened phones...

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Surely if you turn off WiFi, 3G, GPS and the large screen the phone is using minimal battery anyway, and will wake you with the alarm. And if that is 'standby' you can leave it like that all day too, only turning radio functions on when you need them, my Dad does this with his basic Nokia, and can go weeks between charging the phone, the only downside being that he rarely gets any calls or texts when people try to get hold of him.

Um, just how dense are you, mister? It has been explained a few times why this currently can't work in Android, and IIRC even a link to google issue tracker was posted, where Android developers are discussing this feature.

Or do you define the word "sneery" as "someone who is right about something I don't like" ?

By the way, Android is opensource, feel free to dig in and scratch your itch.

eoin31 said:

I'm looking for an app that does this too, and i'm sick of sneery people replying saying that this isnt possible and the person must be mis-taken.

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As i stated in this thread previously.
The hardware is there, the device manufacturers have to make it possible for the phones 'BIOS' if you wish, to recieve commands from the android OS. The phone manufacturers wont do this unless the feature is implimented into android. Android wont do it because at this point in time they cannot talk to the phones 'BIOS'.
Maybe in the future, but that would mean google discussing it with the device manufacturers.
Somehow i think its quite small on their list.

As others have said, GPS/Wifi/Bluetooth/Data off should mean that in one night you will lose less than 5% battery.
I lost 3% last night with GPS on and everything else off (other than radio).

eoin31 said:

I'm looking for an app that does this too, and i'm sick of sneery people replying saying that this isnt possible and the person must be mis-taken.

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Probably not the best way to start a first post I would suggest.

Since I am probably one of the "sneery" people you refer to I just suggest you read the posts again and follow the links. Android (the operating system on your Hero) won't allow it, and they ain't looking at changing that any time soon - and that's straight from the horses' mouth if you follow the link.

As with all WM and Android operated phones when you "power off" the phone goes dead and nothing works. When you switch it "off" with a short push of the power button all you are really doing is switching the screen off. Most functions continue to monitor and work in the background, including the phone, the alarm etc. Some people call that a "standby" or "sleep" mode. If you don't want that to happen then you can switch most of the functions off - for example switching to airplane mode switches most of the power hungry functions off, as you must have read from the many other posts.

But as a previous poster has said, Android is an open system - go for it if you think it can be done. If not and its a deal breaker don't buy a Hero is the only other option on offer at the moment.

peterc10 said:

As with all WM and Android operated phones when you "power off" the phone goes dead and nothing works.

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This isn't true, the clock still works when phone is powered off, even on Android phones.
If you read comments in issue 1942 linked before it is explained that only some software changes would be required because the hardware already has this feature on most phones.

And you can call me what you want but I also need this feature. Power off consumes much less than flight mode.

My god .... talk about resurrecting an old thread ........

As I said Google themselves say that Android won't allow this. And they say they ain't changing it soon. Quote direct
"Sorry folks, but this is not a feature we want to do. There are too many unknowns with respect to what state the device is in exactly when it boots into the alarm-only state with respect to 3rd party apps, the hardware, kernel,
bootloader settings required to implement this feature."

I think there is lots more things I want Google to get right before bothering with this. Especially since my Hero looses less than 2% battery power overnight on flight mode. Just how much less do you want to loose?

Am I the only one who would be really really really really really really peeved off if my phone had the "ability" to turn itself on after I specifically turned it off? I don't want to have to pull the battery to turn the damn phone off. Off is off. Period. I'm all for saving power when I'm not actively using it but why not just try something like juice defender?

kwiknik said:

Am I the only one who would be really really really really really really peeved off if my phone had the "ability" to turn itself on after I specifically turned it off? I don't want to have to pull the battery to turn the damn phone off. Off is off. Period. I'm all for saving power when I'm not actively using it but why not just try something like juice defender?

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Does your phone display correct time after you switch it on after it has been switched off? If yes, have you ever thought about how does it know the exact time? Don't you think the clock is still running even if you 'turn the damn phone off'?
So if the clock is running anyway it is only a matter of software to respond to wake up requests. Other phones do exactly this, some smart (and not smart too) phones are even smart enough to present a reduced UI to the user with phone and all other hardware still turned off when there's an alarm and user can choose to turn on phone or go back to off state (what is exactly the same off what your Android phone has, only the clock is running).

Just because the clock chip is running in the background not does not mean that the Operating System is

I suppose you now have three choices. Persuade Google to change their mind and introduce this feature (good luck with that one). Develop the software skills to do that yourself - who knows you could sell it as an app on Market and make some money. Or get a different phone.

But, given the length of time that this thread has been going, there seems little point in continuing to moan at those of us who say they don't find the need for this feature.

peterc10 said:

Just because the clock chip is running in the background not does not mean that the Operating System is

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You're getting very close to understand what this feature is about ;-)

peterc10 said:

But, given the length of time that this thread has been going, there seems little point in continuing to moan at those of us who say they don't find the need for this feature.

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So why are you moaning at something what you don't need and what doesn't affect you because hardware behavior will not be modified and feature will be optional so one might even get it eventually without noticing it?

mpw said:

No phone I've ever owned has had this feature, and frankly, it would annoy the hell out of me to have an alarm go off after I'd turned my phone off when going to the cinema or something.

Using Android I'll go to flight mode for such functionality, and Offline profile (or a custom profile) using my old Nokia.

Off should be off, not mostly off.

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FYI... every single phone ever before smartphones had this "feature"... it was simply the way ALL phones worked. It was so you can have an alarm for the morning while simultaneously keeping your battery consumption at zero.