A commentary on Galaxy S23 bloat

[svim]

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...d-android-build-somehow-uses-60gb-of-storage/

 

[AugieTN]

Samsung's Android build is 4x bigger than Google's—twice the size of Windows 11.

That;s way too much!

 

[mikedt]

So you get Fakebook and Microsloth's bloat, as well as all the Samsung and Google bloat, nice! Although on my Samsung the only Google apps I've got is Gmail and YouTube, I installed myself.

 

[alphayash]

Well it seems nice, the the Google apps I have on my Samsung is google maps, Gmail and YouTube.

 

[nickdalzell]

I always called Google apps the bloatware. I never asked for them, they cannot be removed, and have less features than the Samsung apps (Internet, Messages, Gallery, etc). Plus Google's track record of killing every app as soon as I start liking it got tiresome. Play Music was the last straw. Back to AOSP or Samsung Music it is! At least those will still be there a decade later!

Don't need an app (or the constant updates) to use YouTube. I just use the browser and go to http://m.youtube.com and enjoy.

For email, either Samsung Email (S4 Mini) or the Windows Vista email client, or Linux + Thunderbird.

Maps, well, got a GPS for that (that needs no data, internet, or privacy issues) that has worked reliably since 2013 when I bought the thing (getting the last skeuomorphic option left before everything went flat)

 

[Rob]

Would be curious to see how that bloatware breaks down and what's actually using each bit.

 

[mikedt]

OT:

Maps, well, got a GPS for that (that needs no data, internet, or privacy issues) that has worked reliably since 2013 when I bought the thing (getting the last skeuomorphic option left before everything went flat)

So you'll be navigating with mapping data that's at least ten years out of date? Wow.
Google Maps has mapping data that's over five years ago out of date, and that's a problem for me. So I don't use it.

In my local neighbourhood, "JInan Service Area" ceased to exist six years ago, "General Beer City" would be in the middle of our school playground, if it was still there, and it took them 5 years to upate the road layout, which changed substantially .

 

[nickdalzell]

Since I don't travel often and the roads I go on never change, the fact that the maps are 'out of date' mean nothing to me. It gets me to my girlfriend's place and anywhere in town (not to mention finding backroads away from traffic) just fine. I'm an if it ain't broke kinda guy. It also still gives HD radio traffic.

I also could use an app called Navmii on my S4, and it also works offline (and has more up to date maps) but it can't find specific addresses (it can't locate the Day's Inn in Winston Salem, NC for example) or POIs like my Garmin Nuvi does. There's also Genius Maps and it's a bit better, but again, not neccessary. So far the only times I've dealt with 'out of date' info is when I find hotels, as some have changed names. For example, last time I went to see my girl, the 'Holiday Inn Express' in Winston Salem was now a Comfort Suites. That's about it. No taking me on a dead end dirt road or off a cliff like some folks overhyped about Apple Maps in iOS 6

I honestly feel inclined to go back to paper maps and a compass in the future. I want to have skills that don't depend on being connected 24/7.

Plus another reason I don't use 'modern' apps is that UI (the one you posted) my god how awful. I dealt with flat UI back in the 80s and never ever want to see it again.

 

[Hadron]

Samsung ROMs have always been amongst the largest out there. They add more bloat (including stuff that vendors pay them to include), they include duplicate apps (Google versions and Samsung versions which do the same thing), they add more apps of their own, etc. It's a no-win situation since one person's "useful feature" or "key selling point" can be another's "bloat", but Samsung have always taken the "just stuff everything we can think of in there" approach.

But are they talking about the actual system space used or the size of the system partitions? Particularly from the comment Ars have added to the start of the article I get the impression that they are doing the latter (that comment being based on the old confusion between storage being decimal vs binary storage units: if you compare what Ars describe as "actual" vs "advertised" storage you'll notice that the difference is a little over 7%, which is the difference between a binary G = 2^30, and a decimal G = 10^9). If they are talking about the space allocated for the ROM rather than the space used there's also the question of how much extra room the manufacturer gives themselves? I remember some years back people noticing that higher capacity versions of the same Samsung phone had larger system partitions, even though they'd have been running the same ROM, which implied that they were doing something silly like allocating the same fraction of the storage to the ROM no matter how much storage was installed. Since the article here doesn't compare different capacity models of the same phone I've no idea whether this might still be a factor.

 

[nickdalzell]

I personally prefer Samsung's messages, browser, music and gallery apps. I don't, however, find them forcing Tiktok or Facebook as system apps very appealing.

But the argument I make for anyone complaining about 'bloatware' is that it's always so one sided. It's bad because Samsung offers a choice (multiple apps or alternatives to Google's) or because they want you to have a device that's useful out of the box and not after spending hours on Play Store downloading all the essentials. They basically make a phone you can use without needing to use an app store at all. They also offer an alternative to Google Play Store (Useful since I hate Google these days and never forgave them for killing Android Market)

But when Google forces their apps on anyone, even on AOSP-based ROMs or ones like the Motorolas use, it's all fine and dandy. They can't be uninstalled either. But it's not wrong if Google forces bloat, only wrong if Samsung does. Bias much? Don't like Samsung? Don't buy a Samsung phone. It's that simple.

And, before anyone makes the claim that 'It's Google's OS they have a right to include their apps' no, Google does not own Android. AOSP (stock Android) is not owned by Google. It's an open-source OS. Google no more owns Android than Linus Torvalds owns Linux.

 

[Hadron]

OT:

So you'll be navigating with mapping data that's at least ten years out of date? Wow.
Google Maps has mapping data that's over five years ago out of date, and that's a problem for me.

I've known Google Maps include data that has never been correct (e.g. it once told me that a large hotel in central Birmingham was in the middle of a traffic island over an underpass, where there has never been a building). And I've known updates to introduce errors, e.g. moving a pub to about a km away from its actual position when a month earlier it had known the position correctly.

None of these systems is definitive, they all include not only out of date information but simply erroneous. One reason I always have more than one source available to me.

 

[Hadron]

I personally prefer Samsung's messages, browser, music and gallery apps. I don't, however, find them forcing Tiktok or Facebook as system apps very appealing.

But the argument I make for anyone complaining about 'bloatware' is that it's always so one sided. It's bad because Samsung offers a choice (multiple apps or alternatives to Google's) or because they want you to have a device that's useful out of the box and not after spending hours on Play Store downloading all the essentials. They basically make a phone you can use without needing to use an app store at all. They also offer an alternative to Google Play Store (Useful since I hate Google these days and never forgave them for killing Android Market)

But when Google forces their apps on anyone, even on AOSP-based ROMs or ones like the Motorolas use, it's all fine and dandy. They can't be uninstalled either. But it's not wrong if Google forces bloat, only wrong if Samsung does. Bias much? Don't like Samsung? Don't buy a Samsung phone. It's that simple.

I think the reason you get that one-sided complaint is that Samsung apps duplicate others. If it was one or the other there would be less complaint, but of course Google don't let manufacturers pick and choose which Google apps are included: if they want Play Store access the have to include the lot. Of course Samsung do let you disable some of the Google apps (e.g. Messages), but prevent you from disabling their own.

I don't like Google's or Samsung's message apps, browsers, music, gallery apps, etc. So for me adding these doesn't make the phone more usable out of the box, it's just 2 sets of things I don't use rather than 1 (I'm also allergic to using any manufacturer-specific features as I regard all such as attempts to lock users in to that manufacturer, so many of the other things they include are irrelevant to me). But I compensate by buying a phone with sufficient storage that the space they waste isn't a problem for me, by disabling what I can, hiding the rest (which I can do as I don't use Samsung's launcher either) and then forgetting that they exist.

(And if you are wondering why I have a Samsung phone it's easy: I needed to replace my Pixel 2 at short notice, Google's options were a Pixel 5a or a Pixel 6, both of which were too large and had too little storage, or a Pixel 6 Pro which had better storage options but was even larger. The newly released Xperia 5III was a good size but very expensive, while the Galaxy s21 had dropped a lot in price and was on a promotion, and I'd been impressed by how much damage my daughter's s8 could take while still functioning. Hence although I preferred the Xperia's size and features I couldn't justify spending almost 50% more for it and so bought the Samsung).

 

[nickdalzell]

I was trying to make the point from the OEM's perspective. For an average user, it makes more sense to have the device ready to go out of the box and not after spending hours downloading essential apps. That was one of the things that often bugged me about stock Android. I would spend hours downloading apps that I considered essential (including themes) because they were never pre-installed out of the box. AOSP ROMs for my Nexus didn't even include a music player or email client!

Samsung phones had all the things I wanted. An SMS client, note taking app, app store (that IMO was better than Google), music player, browser, even apps for reading ebooks (Kindle) and playing internet radio (Slacker). The things I love about Samsung's apps is their browser supports extensions such as adblock, their messages client has the ability to have backgrounds and custom bubble styles, and their email client has custom sync schedules and custom layouts. Slacker Radio is to me far better than overrated and ad-infested Pandora. Slacker's free version has ads, but mostly in the app and very few in between songs. It plays five or so songs before an ad comes up. Pandora is almost all ads with one song for every three.

For an average noob who just wants a functional smartphone and not an android enthusiast, it makes sense to have a device ready to go soon as they walk out of the carrier store than one they have to finish setting up and dealing with an incomplete device in the same instance. None of us have to agree but it has made Samsung one of the most popular Android phones. You always see more Samsung phones in people's hands than Pixels or Motos, so their tactic appears to be working. Much as I despise having Tiktok and Facebook as system apps, my opinion means nothing when the vast majority of smartphone users these days spends a ton of time using both apps so it makes sense for Samsung to include them.

The same tactic worked for Apple in 2007 as well. Back then their iPhone didn't even have an app store nor did Steve consider third-party apps as an option. They had a smattering of apps that made the phone useful out of the box, including notes, weather, and a maps app.


That's what sold the smartphone idea to me at the time, I had a functional device out of the box. Not one with missing stuff that I had to finish setting up.

 

[Hadron]

I wonder whether all of the apps etc actually do contribute much to Samsung's popularity? I suspect that their marketing is a bigger factor: TV ads (which I only ever see these days for Samsung and Apple), incentives for stores to promote their phones, paying for prominent placements, never mind some of the shadier methods they used to use before the "influencer" phenomenon brought paid shilling into the open. They've always spent a lot on marketing.

And I suspect the average user just uses whatever is on their phone already. That's why Google insist on their apps being there. And beyond wallpaper I suspect that the average user never does any theming - going that deep into settings to probably already "advanced"

 

[mikedt]

S

Plus another reason I don't use 'modern' apps is that UI (the one you posted) my god how awful. I dealt with flat UI back in the 80s and never ever want to see it again.

Yeah, Google Maps' UI isn't exactly the best. but on the other hand if I instantly want to see information where I'm going, I don't need fancy skeuomorphisms in a GPS app.

 

[mikedt]

I've known Google Maps include data that has never been correct (e.g. it once told me that a large hotel in central Birmingham was in the middle of a traffic island over an underpass, where there has never been a building). And I've known updates to introduce errors, e.g. moving a pub to about a km away from its actual position when a month earlier it had known the position correctly.

None of these systems is definitive, they all include not only out of date information but simply erroneous. One reason I always have more than one source available to me.

So it sounds like Google Maps can be as useless in the UK, as it is in the PRC.

 

[PitCarver]

Could be that the average consumer simply reacts to the carriers promotions of 50% off of the Samsung devices. Verizon sends me one almost every week.

 

[nickdalzell]

Yeah, Google Maps' UI isn't exactly the best. but on the other hand if I instantly want to see information where I'm going, I don't need fancy skeuomorphisms in a GPS app.

If I have to look at something, it better not strain my eyes. Flat UI strains my eyes and just makes me depressed to look at. I prefer my GPS having buttons that look pressable at least. Not to mention the 3D buildings, and junction views. If I wanted a 2D top-down perspective I'd play Fallout 4 and use the Pip Boy.

 

[mikedt]

If I have to look at something, it better not strain my eyes. Flat UI strains my eyes and just makes me depressed to look at. I prefer my GPS having buttons that look pressable at least. Not to mention the 3D buildings, and junction views. If I wanted a 2D top-down perspective I'd play Fallout 4 and use the Pip Boy.

Well when I'm actually using a GPS for navigation, to go somewhere, that's exactly what I want to see.

Does a ten year old GPS from 2013, that's NOT online, and doesn't use data show such things? 3D buildings with detail, actual road signs as they appear, bridges, street furniture, trees, etc. Been online with data also means real-time traffic information of course, something I've found useful many times.

For just browsing the map, and tapping on places to find more detail, I actually prefer the top-down 2D over 3D views.

 

[nickdalzell]

Yes, my offline does all of that since the data is stored locally. It uses HD radio for traffic alerts/accidents and does rather well. Plus, unlike Google Maps, doesn't take me through the worst, most busy part of NC to save 9 minutes. The Nuvi is the only one that has taken me on the best route to that particular Day's Inn. No other app or service has beaten that yet. As said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If the time comes where it no longer serves my needs, then I will 'upgrade'. I don't replace things for the sake of replacing things.

People like yourself need to realize that just because something is old, doesn't mean it should just be thrown out and replaced. 2013 ain't even old yet. Still new. 2010 feels like yesterday to me. now, sure, 40 years later? yeah that's old. Will it cease being useful by then? Who knows?

 

[mikedt]

Yes, my offline does all of that since the data is stored locally. It uses HD radio for traffic alerts/accidents and does rather well. Plus, unlike Google Maps, doesn't take me through the worst, most busy part of NC to save 9 minutes. The Nuvi is the only one that has taken me on the best route to that particular Day's Inn. No other app or service has beaten that yet. As said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

If the time comes where it no longer serves my needs, then I will 'upgrade'. I don't replace things for the sake of replacing things.

People like yourself need to realize that just because something is old, doesn't mean it should just be thrown out and replaced. 2013 ain't even old yet. Still new. 2010 feels like yesterday to me. now, sure, 40 years later? yeah that's old. Will it cease being useful by then? Who knows?

We're a bit old fashioned in that realm here, and radio is just analogue FM and AM. No HD, or DAB, or whatever digital. So for realtime traffic alerts accidents while out and about, it has to be via 4G or 5G. Of course one has to use whatever is available, depending on where you are

 

[nickdalzell]

I am sorta surprised your area has analogue anything. I would think you'd have gone like the UK and gotten rid of AM completely...

I suppose I'm glad I don't live in China. Does this mean you don't have RDS either? (Radio Data Service) that's been a thing here since like 2004.