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Chaos in Egypt

Discussion in 'Politics and Current Affairs' started by Vihzel, Feb 3, 2011.

  1. Vihzel

    Vihzel Destroying Balls Everyday
    Thread Starter

    This is absolutely insane with what's going on in Egypt. Obviously this is the biggest news all around the world. What bothers me the most is probably the "pro-Mubarak" (aka. hired by the government or hidden police force) harassing, assaulting, and holding foreign journalists.
     



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  2. hakr100

    hakr100 Android Expert

    Thanks to the presence of the media, it is patently transparent that the "trouble" is being initiated by Mubarak supporters.

    I'm glad Obama is taking reasonable steps to pressure Mubarak to leave office.
     
  3. cipher6

    cipher6 Android Enthusiast

    We really get too preoccupied with this democracy thing. Its what Bush was trying to do in Iraq and Afghanistan, and that hasn't worked out too well.

    What happens when newly democratic middle east nations want to go to war with Israel, or support clandestine attacks on the US with the full resources of a government behind them? Muslim Brotherhood, who is trying to co-opt the protests have pretty much said, thats what they want to do.
     
  4. hakr100

    hakr100 Android Expert


    There are no "newly democratic" Middle Eastern states, and I am including Iraq and Afghanistan.
     
  5. cipher6

    cipher6 Android Enthusiast

    Not yet.
     
  6. ElasticNinja

    ElasticNinja Android Expert

    the West just needs to ensure a Democratic secular led government comes to power
     
  7. hakr100

    hakr100 Android Expert

    Oh? And how do we do that?
     
  8. ElasticNinja

    ElasticNinja Android Expert

    well you have the huge aid contributions already

    seriously tho, the US has been handling this well... if the army is kept on side it may be possible to get a stable system like Turkey's (there are differences between the two, but not massive differences, of course Eygpt is poorer)
     
  9. yup, they're bringing out the cavalry now!!!

    [​IMG]
     
  10. mikedt

    mikedt 你好

    Would this be a case of the West(United States) interfering in the affairs of a foreign country?
     
  11. ElasticNinja

    ElasticNinja Android Expert

    the US and Europe have been interfering for a long time there already
    the people have reasonable demands, and are going about the whole "revolt" very impressively
    Even the Muslim Brotherhood is quite reasonable (altho i despise these kind of parties), altho i would not agree with those who say they would be like the APK
     
  12. cipher6

    cipher6 Android Enthusiast



    Democratic doesn't mean secular. If the majority of people want a religious theocracy, then thats what democracy will bring.

    If the majority of Egyptions are peacful people who desire a secular democracy, thats what they will get.

    If the majority of Egyptians fall more on the Muslim Brotherhood side (who wants democracy as a means of ending the current system only.) Then Israel is in for trouble.

    A democracy only produces a peaceful nation if the population is peaceful... if the population is blood thirsty, democracy produces a blood thirsty government.

    The Palestinians elected Hamas, who have total destruction of Israel written into their charter.
     
  13. ElasticNinja

    ElasticNinja Android Expert

    as can be seen by countries like Ireland *sigh*
    of course, but it does not seem that they do
    i think the majority would lean towards the former, and Egypt already has implementation of elements of Sharia law in its legal system
    i think a MB majority government would mean trouble for Israel, but where the MB is a minor partner in a coallition government, it might make Israel see the mess they have got themselves into and set about fixing it
    Egypt is quite peaceful, its a middle income economy and its people are relatively well educated to a reasonable degree, there have been incidents (the coptic murders) but these do clear;y not represent the vast majority of Egyptians
    unfortunately so, and now they realise their mistake... its a shame Fatah became so corrupted, that said, poverty breeds political corruption :(
     
  14. ZxRishixZ

    ZxRishixZ Well-Known Member

    its getting really bad but what I don't get is how he has been in power for 29 years and the public choose to protest NOW!
    also once he is out of power (?) do you think the country will ever be the same?
     
  15. byteware

    byteware Android Expert

    The Muslim Brotherhood are NOT a concern for the US. I mean, seriously, they aren't radicalized. They aren't anything other than MUSLIM. Al Qaeda pretty much hates the Muslim Brotherhood. They have been at peaceful opposition with the government of Egypt for decades.

    A democratic government will rise. It will be one "of the people" of Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood will play a part in that government. Foreign policy for Egypt will more or less continue on as it always has, but Egypt will no longer police it's border with Israel with as strict of a military hand as it has until now. That will be Israel's job.
     
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  16. ElasticNinja

    ElasticNinja Android Expert

    no, it wont be the same

    good point, tho the Muslim Brotherhood is quite far right, in a sense they are like the influence of the Catholic the church in the 30/40/50's in countries like Ireland... it would be better if they weren't there, but excluding them only makes things worse
    If they were to become a single party government, i'd doubt they'd have the necessary respect for a secular state
     
  17. cipher6

    cipher6 Android Enthusiast

    No... as can be seen by countries like, Iran or Israel. *sigh*


    I think the only thing about the Egyptian population, in general, that can be drawn from the protests is their tired of Mubarak. What they would replace him with I think various greatly.

    So you've got no problems watching the Middle East explode into WWIII?

    Agree or disagree with the Israel on the Palestinian issue, if Egypt takes a turn towards aligning with Iran, things have the potential of falling into chaos real fast.

    I hope thats true, and would love to see a peaceful democratic Egypt.

    Why do you say they realize their mistake now? Last I heard Hammas is stronger than ever and the PA is teetering on collapse.

    Well, will the MB openly attack the US? No. But one of the driving sources of Al-Quedia, Hamas, Hezbulla, etc. was the Muslim Brotherhood. Hamas, who routinely target innocent civilians, is direct offshoot of the MB.

    Not to mention the numerous financial connections between the MB and Islamic terrorist organizations.

    I think the idea the MB would accept secular democracy as anything but a stepping stone to their end goal of a true (in their mind) Islamic state is silly.

    The MB true, isn't a violent organization, its ideas and ideology are greatly in tune with violent Islamism.

    Because the MB doesn't openly call for violence.

    I don't think the MB is some political front for terrorist organizations, but I don't think they want the same things as western secular democracies.

    They've also been linked to political assassination.

    I think those are pretty obvious statements, like "the sun will rise tomorrow."

    I think thats a little harder to call.

    And thats partly, what can cause the region do explode.

    Egypt opens up its boarders with Palestine. Hamas (helped partly by elements in the MB and others) start smuggling more and more weapons and rockets into Palestine.

    Israel, in an attempt to keep rockets from falling on schools, launches an operation similar to what happened in 2008. All out conflict between Hamas and Israel breaks out. Hezbollah, which recently took a stronger hold of Lebanon government sees Israel in a weak point, and pushed by (and supplied by) Iran launch attacks against Israel as well.

    Thats not a situation I'd like to see play out. No matter what side of the debate your on, that situation would lead to thousands of innocent dead people.
     
  18. jwp1223

    jwp1223 Android Enthusiast

    If you are thinking that Muslim Brotherhood will be peaceful, and understanding you have been drinking a bit too much kool-aid. It will end up being very very very very bad if they take over. Murabak needs to go, but seriously, bringing in the MBH....even worse...
     
  19. byteware

    byteware Android Expert

    My personal opinion... this is rooted more in islamaphobia, than it is in facts.
     
  20. cipher6

    cipher6 Android Enthusiast

    You can't deny the MB's political stance and their own statements. True, they are more a political party today than a resistance organization, but the ideology that drives them (Islamism) is the same that drives radical violent Islamists.

    Image if the KKK formed a political party to promote candidates and run in elections... thats pretty much what the MB is.
     
  21. ElasticNinja

    ElasticNinja Android Expert

    i dont recall Iran ever having free or fair national elections... in places like Ireland the Church was given a "special position" allowing censorship, coverups and destructions of any attempts of socialism, despite the fact Ireland had been democratic for a few decades beforehand
    Even today, just a small percentage of schools are secular :(


    a corrupted form of Islamism and social problems is the driving force for Al Quaeda
    The Muslim Brotherhood and similar parties are the result of people believing the bull their parents believe in
    Either way, they are highly unlikely to become the biggest player in Egypts Government
     
  22. byteware

    byteware Android Expert

    The ideology that drives Evangelicals is the same that drives some Crazy militias.

    That doesn't make Evangelicals in this country a threat.

    Nope, that ISN'T what the MB is. What the MB is, is a group that was formed decades ago, and originally resorted to terrorist activities to try to affect Change. However, about two decades ago, they changed to a peaceful resistance.

    It wasn't much reported here, but you should really look at the MB's role in being Human Shields for the Christians in Egypt after the bombings this past year.

    Look past the word "Muslim" (and according to SNL... "Brotherhood") and look at who they are. Then it isn't so scary.
     
  23. cipher6

    cipher6 Android Enthusiast

    I disagree, Evangelical Christianity has a long ideological and traditional history of respecting state authority while preaching their message. Christian ideology itself doesn't bother with trying to order the state, Jesus was preaching about things beyond governments... "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." I know of no major Christian organization that calls for Christianity to be the basis of how to order the state. They may push for laws that reflect their morality, but thats different than saying the Bible should be the basis for the structure of a government. Where exactly in the bible does it explain what a Christian government should look like?


    And how is that different than say, the KKK, that used to use violent tactics to effect change, starting a non-violent political party?

    First, a handful of Christian friendly Muslims doesn't negate a hundred plus years of religious discrimination.

    I'm not saying their monsters, but that they are not going to be the ones pushing for secular democracy. They push for democratic changes, yes... but because they want, and think, an Islamic state will rise from the will of the people if you allow more democratic processes.

    Interesting tidbits...

    Wikipedia:

    Mohamed Mahdy Akef, the Supreme Guide of the Muslim Brotherhood
    http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=14407

    Muslim Brotherhood leader Youssef Qaradawi on Suicide Bombers:
    http://globalmbreport.org/?p=579

    MB opposes child protection laws:
    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2008/0724/p05s01-wome.html
     
  24. byteware

    byteware Android Expert

    So, basically all Christians do, is do the exact same thing Muslims do when they want Shariah law to be passed as the law of the land... gotcha.

    That is different from Muslims How exactly?

    Or say... the Catholic Church... or the black panthers... or many many different anti-war groups... or Peta (well, this was is ongoing, but that's a different matter)...

    Get rid of Islamophobia... and view the world as it is... not as you are afraid it COULD be.

    Yes, but MOST muslims have forgiven Christians for this... Oh wait, you ARE referring to Christians discriminating against Muslims right...?

    They aren't monsters, you just know what they are going to do because of a stereotype based in ignorance and fear?

    First off, the clerics have FORBIDDEN Female Circumcision.

    The Grand Mufti of Egypt prohibited it, and leading Islamic scholars issued a Fatwa regarding the process.

    And "Clerics (MB Types)"... hello?

    I mean... you may not realize it but you are spouting stereotype after stereotype after stereotype. No actual information, just stereotype of the big bad Muslim group.

    Well, nice way to clip only what painted them in the light you want them painted.

    Non-Muslims should pay the tax because military service is only compulsory for Muslims, which isn't evil, or targeting non-Muslims. It's a valid political desire for a valid existing reason.

    Now, if you would rather them make military service compulsory for EVERY citizen of Egypt, that's fine too... but I have no issue with them imposing a tax on those who have no compulsory military service, and NOT those who do. It's not the way I would solve the problem, but it's a reasonable solution.

    What I find most reprehensible is that you KNEW why they wanted that tax imposed, but decided to leave it out simply because you wanted to paint them in a bad light. Making the MB look bad was more important to you than the truth. But no... you aren't racist
     
  25. cipher6

    cipher6 Android Enthusiast

    shadowninty:


    Do you watch the news? Do you know who Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is?
    Do you not remember the protests after his re-election?
    Iranian presidential election, 2009 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    First, its pretty impressive you've determined what true Islam is, and therefore can detect corrupted Islam... Muslims are still fighting over that one.

    Second, What ever the source of the MB beliefs, it doesn't change the fact thats what they, and billions others around the world, believe and act on. When a suicide bomber blows up a bus of civilians in Israel, I don't think they will take much comfort in the notion the attacker was motivated by a "corrupt" Islam.


    Can I borrow your crystal ball? Besides the Army, the MB are the only organization in Egypt with any kind of structure or organization. Pretty much every commentator familiar with the situation believes its very possible that the MB emerges with much more influence than before.

    What makes you so sure about your unique opinion?
     
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