RoadRunnerSS
Newbie
I was playing with my cousins Iphone 4 and her camcorder seems to be more clear than my EVO and when I move the phone fast its not choppy like my EVO. It also seems to be better in low light. Anyone know why this is?
EVO vs Iphone 4 camcorder
- Thread starter RoadRunnerSS
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- htc evo 4g
RoadRunnerSS
Newbie
Or maybe the Iphone 4 screen is just of higher quality materials than the Evo?
daddyd302
Android Enthusiast
That is one area where the iphone had the edge over the EVO. I'm not sure if it has something to do with their screen or their camera, or both. Whatever it is, it's head and shoulders above the EVO in that department.
Then again the iphone can't mult-task, run live animation, run open OS, have widgets, let you replace the memory and battery and so on. Yes the iphone is great for some people, but for me I'll never buy another iphone again.
Then again the iphone can't mult-task, run live animation, run open OS, have widgets, let you replace the memory and battery and so on. Yes the iphone is great for some people, but for me I'll never buy another iphone again.
Thefoodman52
Android Expert
We need an auto compiler that stuffs any and all threads with the letters "vs." in them into one large sticky under 'reviews'.
^Agreed.
RoadRunnerSS-
Are you using 2.1 or 2.2 Android?
Are you using the H.264 codec? The symptoms you describe sound more like you're using the MPEG4 one - not so good.
While presently available only for SD for us (it's part of our 2.2 upgrade), H.264 head and shoulders above the MPEG4 codec. That older codec is indeed choppy - in fact, it's overall pretty crappy. I'm not even bothering with HD recording now - not until it gets the updated codec as well.
The iPhone has (so far as I know) always used the H.264 video codec and at present it also uses the superior AAC audio codec - whereas ours is the first release of H.264 and using the lower quality AMR audio codec.
So far as I know, we've got the first Android phone with H.264 capability. It's too soon to tell if further tweaking of it is required before it's optimal for us.
FWIW - our original codec is specified as MPEG4 Part 2, while H.264 is essentially MPEG4 Part 10, and the latter is motion optimized.
The iPhone has also traded a few megapixels for better light sensitivity, but in SD, that may be less of a concern, not completely sure. At some point, someone's going to post some side-by-side SD/H.264 comparison vids of the same scenes.
OK reemas, where you hiding?
Meanwhile, for the curious - here's the thread with a few AF edge cutters keeping us up to date as the codec was released -
http://androidforums.com/htc-evo-4g/127093-forget-30fps-cap-fix-our-video-camera-first-2.html
I've pointed at page 2 where the vid comparisons begin.
RoadRunnerSS-
Are you using 2.1 or 2.2 Android?
Are you using the H.264 codec? The symptoms you describe sound more like you're using the MPEG4 one - not so good.
While presently available only for SD for us (it's part of our 2.2 upgrade), H.264 head and shoulders above the MPEG4 codec. That older codec is indeed choppy - in fact, it's overall pretty crappy. I'm not even bothering with HD recording now - not until it gets the updated codec as well.
The iPhone has (so far as I know) always used the H.264 video codec and at present it also uses the superior AAC audio codec - whereas ours is the first release of H.264 and using the lower quality AMR audio codec.
So far as I know, we've got the first Android phone with H.264 capability. It's too soon to tell if further tweaking of it is required before it's optimal for us.
FWIW - our original codec is specified as MPEG4 Part 2, while H.264 is essentially MPEG4 Part 10, and the latter is motion optimized.
The iPhone has also traded a few megapixels for better light sensitivity, but in SD, that may be less of a concern, not completely sure. At some point, someone's going to post some side-by-side SD/H.264 comparison vids of the same scenes.
OK reemas, where you hiding?
Meanwhile, for the curious - here's the thread with a few AF edge cutters keeping us up to date as the codec was released -
http://androidforums.com/htc-evo-4g/127093-forget-30fps-cap-fix-our-video-camera-first-2.html
I've pointed at page 2 where the vid comparisons begin.
SporkLover
Android Enthusiast
Bottom line: the sensor on the iPhone is "better" (same size as ours, less pixels) and they record with a better software encoded standard.
Caloy
Android Expert
I agree, and the Evo's sound is aweful. Me and my cousin compared videos taken of the same event, and the iPhone's video is way better on you tube.
It's a good thing I didn't buy this phone as a camcorder. I'll probably use this when I see something like the bigfoot or the loch ness monster. I wouldn't have trouble making money out of it despite the quality issues.... LOL
novox77
Leeeroy Jennnkinnns!
You'd get less money for your bigfoot/loch ness videos if it were NOT cell-phone quality. It has to be blurry, shaky, and unusable to the scientific community for it to be worth a damn
OK, let's talk 2.2 today, not 2.1.
Actually, the bottom line is that the new ED H.264 implementation for the EVO needs to be compared to a mature implementation because now that part is identical at the top level - it wasn't even close before when the EVO used an identical codec.
Another thing to consider is that the 8 MP sensor, while gathering a little less light per bucket than the 5 MP sensor, is - like the iPhone - performing an integration of that light from each bucket (pixel).
Do the math - WVGA resolution is less than 0.4 MP - so neither phone is relying on naked sensor goodness with moving pictures to the extent they are with still photos.
Will the iPhone's sensor/lens beat the EVO at the end of the day in SD video? Until the video codecs are completely the same - and for all we know they are right now - we can't make any assessments of how poorly the EVO will do by looking at paper.
We really need another side by side video comparison, reemas style iP/EVO blind a/b, with H.264 480p only at the moment.
Did you get a chance to compare the insane improvements in the new codec vs. old in the link I provided in my previous post?
Not the bit-rate increases - the H.264 improvement a/b comparisons that came later.
And that was with the 2.2 update and the EVO set to 480p/H.264?
Sound still sux - but really, agree that the video alone still doesn't compare?
As of right now, the 480/H.264 far surpasses 720/MPEG4 video recording - not even close.
RoadRunnerSS
Newbie
All I know is I haven't done anything to this phone since I got it. I do know when I record it's in 720p
I didn't think of comparing the audio, but so far I like the evo's speaker
SMARTPHONEPC
Well-Known Member
We do know that the anticipated 2.3/Gingerbread release has an updated audio codec package, improving AMR (I'm still no fan of that one) and now giving native support for ... ta da! ... AAC.
Google's also widened the API for straightforward calls (read: native support) for both front and rear cameras. I haven't combed the dev kit yet to see if H.264 support is native or not, so no comment on that at this time.
It will be very interesting to see what we get in this area when the 2.3+new HTC Sense are integrated!
Google's also widened the API for straightforward calls (read: native support) for both front and rear cameras. I haven't combed the dev kit yet to see if H.264 support is native or not, so no comment on that at this time.
It will be very interesting to see what we get in this area when the 2.3+new HTC Sense are integrated!
SMARTPHONEPC
Well-Known Member
There really are no 3rd party apps yet that enable improved camcorder capture quality?
Its sensors must be capable of better audio-video quality right? It's not all an SD card limitation issue right? Has it been determined how much of the problem is EVO's hardware?
The original problems were certainly the terrible MPEG4 video codec coupled with a lackluster AMR audio codec.
HTC upgraded the SD/ED side to H.264, left 720p alone (I'm a few updates behind, so that may be moot) - and did that all on their own.
Hard to do, and shows real commitment on HTC's part, to add that sort of thing when it's missing from the essential infrastructure.
And there are no third party that really solve the problem, because they focus on features using existing infrastructure - and those infrastructure changes have been anticipated.
In other words - would you as a developer sink a lot of money today into a fancy, separately-licensed codec package or would you wait and see what comes for free with the OS tomorrow?
That HTC took any independent step is just way cool.
Once the codecs are sorted out for Android and implemented on our Evos, fully, then we'll know.
For those that lived through the first codec upgrade, it became immediately obvious that that alone vastly improved performance of the Evo's camera results.
As it stands, most believe that the it's the superior sensor on the iPhone (there is a megapixel myth - all things being equal, more megapixels=more noise (but things don't have to be equal) and then there's the fact that the iPhone is reported to have a superior lens.
At the end of the day - that may turn out to be inescapably true.
But - we're talking about tiny lenses that are never exciting in the first place and sensors that produce changes in charge and no picture until software is applied.
No one can predict with certainty how things will shake out. I'd expect things to go in iPhone's favor. It's only reasonable to believe that because they got a head start with quality, unless they drop the ball, they should always hold some lead.
But - how big a difference that will be in practical terms will remain to be seen with new software, most especially in the camcorder case.
So far, I'm using h.264/480p recording and not any 720p - the lower-res, better codec looks tons better.
HTC upgraded the SD/ED side to H.264, left 720p alone (I'm a few updates behind, so that may be moot) - and did that all on their own.
Hard to do, and shows real commitment on HTC's part, to add that sort of thing when it's missing from the essential infrastructure.
And there are no third party that really solve the problem, because they focus on features using existing infrastructure - and those infrastructure changes have been anticipated.
In other words - would you as a developer sink a lot of money today into a fancy, separately-licensed codec package or would you wait and see what comes for free with the OS tomorrow?
That HTC took any independent step is just way cool.
Once the codecs are sorted out for Android and implemented on our Evos, fully, then we'll know.
For those that lived through the first codec upgrade, it became immediately obvious that that alone vastly improved performance of the Evo's camera results.
As it stands, most believe that the it's the superior sensor on the iPhone (there is a megapixel myth - all things being equal, more megapixels=more noise (but things don't have to be equal) and then there's the fact that the iPhone is reported to have a superior lens.
At the end of the day - that may turn out to be inescapably true.
But - we're talking about tiny lenses that are never exciting in the first place and sensors that produce changes in charge and no picture until software is applied.
No one can predict with certainty how things will shake out. I'd expect things to go in iPhone's favor. It's only reasonable to believe that because they got a head start with quality, unless they drop the ball, they should always hold some lead.
But - how big a difference that will be in practical terms will remain to be seen with new software, most especially in the camcorder case.
So far, I'm using h.264/480p recording and not any 720p - the lower-res, better codec looks tons better.
SMARTPHONEPC
Well-Known Member
Any h.264/480p EVO samples that you feel exemplify this improvement?
You don't think Tegra2 based Android handsets coming Q1 will surpass iPhone4's lead?
-I'd be happier if the EVO camcorder capture quality was as good as the Samsung galaxy handsets..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fpg5ZzCKNo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw9XuLqxEmM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IUSrvxIIYk
You don't think Tegra2 based Android handsets coming Q1 will surpass iPhone4's lead?
-I'd be happier if the EVO camcorder capture quality was as good as the Samsung galaxy handsets..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fpg5ZzCKNo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw9XuLqxEmM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IUSrvxIIYk
There's a whole thread of Evo comparisons from last summer - I'll look it up and post back.
Here's the thing - the MPEG4 codec, common to other Android offerings, it NOT a motion-optimized compression scheme like h.264.
You can get pretty good MPEG4 vids - but only by having an insane bitrate, and so far, that's what Samsung's done. It's a losing proposition to go that way.
Here's the thing - the MPEG4 codec, common to other Android offerings, it NOT a motion-optimized compression scheme like h.264.
You can get pretty good MPEG4 vids - but only by having an insane bitrate, and so far, that's what Samsung's done. It's a losing proposition to go that way.
I do think H.264 will have support. I know a few big developers waiting on it.. There is a very slick video chat software being created to run on any phone and computer without software.
This thread goes into great detail, and shows comparisons on pages 2 and 3 that you might be looking for.
http://androidforums.com/htc-evo-4g/127093-forget-30fps-cap-fix-our-video-camera-first.html
EDIT and PS - (referring to Apple's lead in phone camera capability)
That's truly an advanced processor - and holds great promise.
The thing to note is that it comes down to the final integration.
Your high-quality Canon DSLR, just picking an example, doesn't use anything that fancy - it uses a specialized chip tuned for image processing - and good firmware.
Same with phones - the Tegra 2 will have an upper performance boundary that will surpass the single-core Snapdragon in the Evo. It will do on-board what other cell phones such as mine have to do via software.
The integration of the processor, memory, software, sensor and lens will dictate picture quality. I can therefore predict with confidence that you'll see Tegra2-based smartphones with great cameras - and dogs for cameras.
Apple started with the iPod, and extended the media experience to include video, and then added cell phone abilities to get the iPhone.
Prior to that, cell phone cameras were an easy-to-add slap-on affair that makers provided.
Here's what's really required to make a good cell phone camera - the corporate will on the part of the maker to commit to a highest-quality experience in that area.
http://androidforums.com/htc-evo-4g/127093-forget-30fps-cap-fix-our-video-camera-first.html
EDIT and PS - (referring to Apple's lead in phone camera capability)
That's truly an advanced processor - and holds great promise.
The thing to note is that it comes down to the final integration.
Your high-quality Canon DSLR, just picking an example, doesn't use anything that fancy - it uses a specialized chip tuned for image processing - and good firmware.
Same with phones - the Tegra 2 will have an upper performance boundary that will surpass the single-core Snapdragon in the Evo. It will do on-board what other cell phones such as mine have to do via software.
The integration of the processor, memory, software, sensor and lens will dictate picture quality. I can therefore predict with confidence that you'll see Tegra2-based smartphones with great cameras - and dogs for cameras.
Apple started with the iPod, and extended the media experience to include video, and then added cell phone abilities to get the iPhone.
Prior to that, cell phone cameras were an easy-to-add slap-on affair that makers provided.
Here's what's really required to make a good cell phone camera - the corporate will on the part of the maker to commit to a highest-quality experience in that area.
SMARTPHONEPC
Well-Known Member
Your post below is worth linking to:
http://androidforums.com/htc-evo-4g...p-fix-our-video-camera-first.html#post1183080
Why no bitrate control & codec control yet (not that it seemed to make that much difference in samples linked in):
Recording 720p 30fps Video Development - Page 15 - xda-developers
Will 2.3 really bring EVO improved camcorder quality (because its current state is dissuasive)?:
Recording 720p 30fps Video Development - Page 34 - xda-developers
For reference the video below shows the stark differences:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zruAaXHkiF4
http://androidforums.com/htc-evo-4g...p-fix-our-video-camera-first.html#post1183080
Why no bitrate control & codec control yet (not that it seemed to make that much difference in samples linked in):
Recording 720p 30fps Video Development - Page 15 - xda-developers
Will 2.3 really bring EVO improved camcorder quality (because its current state is dissuasive)?:
Recording 720p 30fps Video Development - Page 34 - xda-developers
For reference the video below shows the stark differences:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zruAaXHkiF4
We're not communicating somehow. The Evo has h.264 for 480p, not for 720p - yet. It's the first Android on the market to feature h.264 support. My post that you refer to was made before the changes occurred.
Your observation that bitrate nor codec made much difference in the samples on page 2 is rather surprising.
There have been no changes to 720p, it's not very good, I've already stated that in post #11, the first one you responded to - yet - you seem to be questioning that the (non-existent) changes in 720p recording aren't that good.
What phone are you using? What's your quest? I've seen you looking at the Evo for a good month, but seem to keep coming back to this same subject.
I'm only offering the facts on this development - I'm not selling anything, so what you want is up to your preferences. If you want a better camera on a phone that an iPhone, right today, I don't think you'll find it. You'll have to sacrifice Android and get stuck with iOS to get it.
If there were a perfect phone, I'd be right in line with you buying it.
BTW - the Evo display is 24-bit, not 16-bit, as you read.
Your observation that bitrate nor codec made much difference in the samples on page 2 is rather surprising.
There have been no changes to 720p, it's not very good, I've already stated that in post #11, the first one you responded to - yet - you seem to be questioning that the (non-existent) changes in 720p recording aren't that good.
What phone are you using? What's your quest? I've seen you looking at the Evo for a good month, but seem to keep coming back to this same subject.
I'm only offering the facts on this development - I'm not selling anything, so what you want is up to your preferences. If you want a better camera on a phone that an iPhone, right today, I don't think you'll find it. You'll have to sacrifice Android and get stuck with iOS to get it.
If there were a perfect phone, I'd be right in line with you buying it.
BTW - the Evo display is 24-bit, not 16-bit, as you read.
SMARTPHONEPC
Well-Known Member
My quest is for a convergence handset, ideally asap for the holidays but I may end up waiting for CES or possibly getting an EVO with 30 day return window.
Video-audio capture quality that isn't a bummer is important to me. Do you think the following camcorder quality is motivating?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jtg2NsVmK4
I have a gifted iPhone 3GS but much prefer Android & EVO's form factor (&someone has hinted they'd like this iPhone for Xmas) so iP4 is too much of a compromise. I checked out EVO on launch day but it wasn't until 2.2 that I felt it was compelling, then there were rumors of a Mecha-IHD in Nov-Dec with latest Snapdragon+HD display now with Tegra2 anywhere from Jan-Jun but it's all rumors until an official announcement perhaps early Jan.
If the EVO wasn't so SD card dependent & had camcorder quality closer to Samsung Galaxy devices I'd feel more persuaded to get it otherwise I definitely do prefer its form factor over any other Android handset on the market.
I did not know the specs were officially wrong in that it's display is 24 bit color. You referring to http://androidforums.com/htc-evo-4g/118348-evidence-htc-evo-4g-sports-24-bit-display-not-16-bit.html ?, good to know..
I totally hear you. By this time next year, we'll have seen some leaps that will have made these problems moot. Right now, you have to choose the best compromise from the makes available.
Sorry, but that's where it seems things stand with respect to your needs.
Sorry, but that's where it seems things stand with respect to your needs.
SMARTPHONEPC
Well-Known Member
Therein lies the dilemma.. post CES would likely be a more reasonable decision point but I'd have to ignore the holidays
In the not too distant future these issues should be resolved..
