Discussion in 'Politics and Current Affairs' started by FreakyLocz14, Jun 14, 2011.
Straight from Harry Reid's mouth!
YouTube - ‪Paying taxes is VOLUNTARY‬‏
According to the IRS, it is voluntary. Google "Is the US tax system voluntary?" and you'll get a link to the IRS site that talks about it and how people misunderstand what the term implies. I would link it but im on my phone. There's a common misconception to the term "voluntary" in this sitatuation. There's been several cases over this.
At the about.com section about taxes, they have a short description of what the "voluntary" part of the tax system means. I'm not sure how accurate it is or how well it describes it as I'm not well versed in this area. It made sense to me though when I read it.
Voluntary: done, made, brought about, undertaken, etc., of one's own accord or by free choice
Voluntary | Define Voluntary at Dictionary.com
"Voluntary taxation is a theory that states that taxation, naturally a coercive act, should be a voluntary act instead. The idea states that instead of people being forced to pay taxes by their government they should have the option to pay taxes. In this theory people control how much they pay and where they spend it. The theory is a part of Objectivist politics and many Libertarian ideologies. Studies show that individuals will give to government, paying voluntary taxes to support specific functions. Donations average 22 percent of an endowment to government, and 27 percent to private nonprofits, and are influenced by their cause, level, and perceptions of effectiveness and efficiency.
State lotteries are an example of a voluntary taxation system."
"The American federal income taxation system is sometimes called a "voluntary" taxation system. Marjorie E. Kornhauser writes, "Most people never pay their taxes voluntarily, in the ordinary sense of the word. Rather, they are generally anti-tax, in that they usually would prefer to keep any income they receive than pay it to the government in taxes. Voluntary, in the context of taxation, simply means that people do not have to be compelled to pay their taxes through actual enforcement actions by the state." The "income taxes are voluntary" argument has not prevented U.S. residents who did not file tax returns or pay taxes from being prosecuted and convicted for tax offenses.
Voluntary taxation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Finally, the income tax system is voluntary. That's because people are free to arrange their financial affairs in such a way to take advantage of any tax benefits. Voluntary does not mean that the tax laws don't apply to you. Voluntary means you can choose to pay less taxes by managing your finances in a way to minimize your taxes.
I have heard before there is no irs tax code that states you have to pay federal income tax.
What does voluntary really mean? It means that someone does someone on their own free will. You can't choose to pay less taxes unless a certain provision in the tax code that politicians, not the taxpayers, implement. You can't just pull a reason to deduct your tax burden out of thin air. You are involuntarily forced to pay taxes unless exemptions that you have no control over cover you.
Dont get bent out of shape over semantics. The rich have a lot more say in how much taxes they pay, than do the middle class, and even the poor.
define middle class and poor
47% of american pay little, or in most cases no taxes.
income under 33k pays 2.75% of the taxes and has an average tax rate of 2.59%
they are already paying nothing
Considering that federal income taxes are not the only source of taxation, my point stands. And, being under the poverty line, you dont pay federal income taxes, but, you do still pay, ssi, medicare, state taxes, local taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, gas taxes...
Now, the "middle class", are the ones that really bear the hardest burden. I am middle class, and I pay close to 50% of my income to the government, that is HARDLY "nothing".
I also want to point out to you, that, your response, had nothing to do with what you were responding to. My statement was that the rich have more control over the amount of taxes they pay, than do the middle class, or the poor. I am pretty sure you were the one that said the rich move, when states try to tax them at a higher rate. One example. Another example. My neighber has all his vehicles registered in another state, where he happens to own a second home. Why? Less taxes. Yet another example, when was the last time you heard of a poor man giving a charitable donation to decrease the amount of taxes they owe?
being under the poverty line you often get the ssi, medicae, state, local, ect back via the earned income credit.
And often, they dont. EIC is really not that much, until you start adding in children. Again, this is not the point of my arguement. That the rich have far more control over how much they pay.
i'll agree with that. by investing in property they get deductions
by giving to charity they get deductions. by buying large items for their they may get deductions.
sure they can pay less by spending money which helps the economy
or giving it away that helps the poor.
Ill just add, that giving money to kids in Zimbabwe, does not really help our economy, or our poor. And, there are many more ways for them to lessen their tax burden.
Every year people make the argument that taxes are voluntary so they don't pay. Every year they go to jail for not paying. The "taxes are voluntary" argument just doesn't work in reality.
and all those ways are open to the poor. anyone can claim the same deductions, well ok rich cant claim earned income
So, when you LITTERALLY live paycheck to paycheck, you are suppose to be able to give to charity in an amount that will reduce you tax bill? Or own a second home to "live" in, when in reality, you are just using it to save money on how much it costs to register your car, and vacation in? The poor can just pick up and move at the thought of paying higher taxes? The poor can afford to pay $1000 for a personal accountant to scourer for loopholes? The poor can take a 100 mile trip, to avoid paying sales tax on a new wardrobe? The ability is NOT there for the poor, to the degree it is for the rich. Wich, was the entire point of my arguement.
As for the little pointless end to your statement, they also dont pay ssi/medicare on all of their income.
being able to do something and being able to afford it are 2 diff things
the have the same rights as the rich in doing things
many poor people pay a very high percentage to do thier taxes.
they use those services that give your your refund on a card before the gov cuts the check. its usually at a high rate.
The Truth About Frivolous Tax Arguments - Section I
I would say that not being able to do those things means you have less control. To say you are free to do something, even though you actually cant means squat.
Yes, a lot of people get RAL's(wich is actually a loan, on your refund, and not the cost of the filing). AND yes, they do cost a lot. However, most dont. The actual filing at H&R Block? Less then $150 for their itemized filing. Less than $50 for a simple return.
simple returns are free via turbo tax online, and can be done at any library
itemizes are @ $50 for fed and $30 for state
come tax time i see many people using that RAL card
but thats another. people charge what the market will bear
cant wait 2 weeks for the refund, have we got a deal for you!
So, now you are going against your last statement?
nope, just showing what they could do to save money, instead of wasting it on the loan
The point is the rich have more control control over what they pay ON THEIR TAXES. And, most people don't get RAL's. You can get that card without the RAL. In fact, I beleive H%R Block, lets you deduct the cost of filing from your refund IF you have it set up on the card, even without the RAL. So, come tax time, when you see lots of those cards, it isnt necessarily because they got the loan.
and my point is the laws the rich use are available to everyone. its not exclusive to any income group
The law doesnt make it exclusive. Just the economics do. Again, the rich have more control over what they pay in taxes.