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Mass Shooting at Navy Yard

Discussion in 'Politics and Current Affairs' started by Frisco, Sep 16, 2013.

  1. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra=
    Thread Starter

  2. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra=
    Thread Starter

    Do we need a "Mass Shooting" sub-forum here?
  3. dibblebill

    dibblebill Android Expert

    Maybe, but also queue both the NRA and the anti-"Personal Gun Ownership" groups to politicize the event before anyone's even had time to mourn their lost ones.
  4. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra=
    Thread Starter

    It's not about guns anymore than obesity is about spoons.

    But, having said that, I wish guns didn't have to exist.

    I have a concealed carry permit and do carry when in certain localities, but .. I don't know how to say it except that there is something really going wrong in the U.S. right now.

    A moderator will come along and find a thread with discussion about gun control to move this to, so I'd like to keep the thread about just this news item if possible.

    Might not be possible.
  5. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra=
    Thread Starter

    Discussion at the news forum (paraphrasing):

    - The shooter was black. Were all his victims white?

    - The shooter had to be working for a terrorist organization to get the
    logistics to do what he did.

    - He was a busted drunk, with dui history. Was all this about alcohol?
  6. dibblebill

    dibblebill Android Expert

    I'm not saying it was about guns, Frisco, I'm saying it'll be turned into a guns issue. Its a tragedy regardless. Of course it'll be made about race, alcohol, or something else stupid by uninformed commentors.
    Frisco likes this.
  7. JohnLaird

    JohnLaird Well-Known Member

    Another (rather large) piece of the puzzle...

    "The man identified as the shooter in the Washington Navy Yard slayings had been arrested in Seattle in 2004 for shooting out the tires of a parked car in what he described as an anger-fueled "black out.""

    "Seattle police said in a statement Monday that detectives later spoke with Alexis' father, who told police Alexis had anger management problems associated with PTSD, and had participated in rescue attempts on Sept. 11th, 2001."

    Navy Yard suspect arrested in '04 Seattle shooting | US National Headlines | Comcast

    Maybe if someone had intervened after his anger blackout in Seattle things could have turned out differently. He should have had an opportunity for treatment and should have been barred from owning a firearm back in 2004. The government dropped the ball on this.
    Frisco likes this.
  8. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra=
    Thread Starter


    It's becoming impossible to post about this case without bringing up access to firearms. This guy had a diagnosis... likely had to lie on the purchase form.

    Now queries about how/where he got the weapons seem prudent.
  9. SiempreTuna

    SiempreTuna Android Expert

    Apart from expressing horror and condolences to the families of those killed, it is impossible to say anything that is not political given the contention about guns in the US.

    Saw this and this today. The latter goes some way to explaining the former, IMO.
  10. dibblebill

    dibblebill Android Expert

    Really, this and Sandy Hill demonstrate how big of a problem we have with the way we treat mental 'illness' in this country and that should be a bigger issue to address, seeing how much stigma we attach to it and how much we discourage talking about or getting help for problems.
  11. Frisco

    Frisco =Luceat Lux Vestra=
    Thread Starter

    Interesting that you brought that up. Quick pop quiz: who was the President who basically emptied the mental health hospitals ("insane asylums") a few decades back? Bonus points for making a connection between that action and the gradual increase in mass shootings and other heinious crimes we're seeing in the U.S.

    I say "gradual" because I'm of the mind that it takes a generation or so for a political/social change to "take," making the kids and grandkids of those first impacted the ones we see doing the deeds caused by those changes.
  12. saptech

    saptech Android Expert

    Ronald Reagan. Thanks to Reagan we have alot of current issues his administration implemented. He believed in the old English myth, Robbing Da Hood, steal from the poor and give to the rich!
  13. unnamedny

    unnamedny Android Expert

    We live in capitalist country. It's all about money. If we ban guns, imagine how much tax money government will lose. If you enforce $500 fees on all gun licenses (background check, metal check, family background check, training etc.) again, government is going to have very hard time passing it and again there won't be as much tax money, because some will bail out on it.

    Every few months there is a mass shooting somewhere. How do you expect to stop it if no one changes any laws?
  14. Gmash

    Gmash Extreme Android User

    Haven't you heard? The solution is MORE guns!!!:rolleyes:

    You're right, though, it is all about money. Not so much tax money as lobbyist money.
  15. sntaylor

    sntaylor Android Expert

    I can't find any evidence of it, but am I right in saying there were no guns allowed in the navy yard or its the person I saw write this speaking rubbish? Was there people in the yard that were armed?
  16. copestag

    copestag Android Expert

    not sure of their specific policies..... I saw one report that stated the handguns involved were taken from security.... which begs the question of at what point did they know what he was about to do... there would be no security on the 4th floor of the atrium where the shooting took place.... so at some point, at the very least several minutes prior to the shooting, 2 security persons were attacked without triggering some kind of WTF is going on

    also reported the AR-15 that all the gun grabbing extremist freaks were screaming about was actually one left unattended by security personnel... it was not involved in anyway in the incident.... just some person scared of inanimate objects noticed it and had to scream ban all guns

    so we know security at least had weapons on premises... as far as any other type of weapon privs I would have to guess there were policies against any type of weapon..... however since security there is the equivalent of a WalMart door greeter they really dont have a way to monitor whats brought in
  17. SiempreTuna

    SiempreTuna Android Expert

    Apparently, staff are not allowed to carry weapons however the base has a lot of armed security staff.

    Seems strange to me that military guards would have civilian AR-15s: surely they would have the military versions (M4/16 etc). Maybe it's just a mis-identification issue.

    Desperately seeking some silver lining to this horrific incident, the fact that this guy was apparently able to arm himself with other people's guns and the fact the base was heaving with armed (and highly trained, unlike civilians) guards has to definitively knock on the head the insane notion that more guns are any kind of answer: more guns simply made a bad situation worse.
  18. chrlswltrs

    chrlswltrs Extreme Android User

    The biggest issue being ignored (other than another shooting with multiple victims in a defenseless victim zone) is the fact that he was on drugs that have known side effects of increasing suicidal/homicidal tendencies. Why does everyone in the media always want to focus on the gun, and not on the mind altering medication that the shooter was taking???? This guy, Lanza, Holmes, and other mass shooters were all on mind altering medication when they went on their killing sprees...
  19. chrlswltrs

    chrlswltrs Extreme Android User

    You are correct. Thanks to an executive order in 1993 by Bill Clinton soldiers, sailors, and marines can not carry any weapons on base unless they are on duty as security. It is pathetic! When I lived on base I couldn't even own a gun because of this completely absurd rule!
    sntaylor likes this.
  20. SiempreTuna

    SiempreTuna Android Expert

    FTFY ;)

    At risk of this turning into a re-run of the guns thread, it's because the guns are a primary part of the problem.

    A perfect example: around the same time 22 kids were murdered in a school in the US by someone with mental issues, in China someone with mental issues attached a school with the only weapon available to him, a knife. Both were horrible, hideous attacks that affected many kids, but in China, no kid died.

    Not one.
    ElasticNinja likes this.
  21. dibblebill

    dibblebill Android Expert

    "We know people on Seratonin Reuptake Inhibitors and other psychoactive drugs are more likely to go commit violent, homicidal crimes. We also acknowledge that we have a defficiency in how we view and treat (as humans) those that may be mentally ill or unstable. But that's not the primary issue at hand. We must address the much easier to politicize issue of guns, because its more visible and loud, and in our opinion, more dangerous."

    I'm sorry, but discussing how to try to mitigate symptoms will not stop the root cause of the problem. It'll only manifest with other weapons, hopefully not explosive in nature like Boston. You don't give someone JUST ibuprofen to treat cancer, if you actually want to fix the problem. You'd say its preposterous if a doctor did that, potentially malpractice. I'd rather not turn this into a gun debate, as there's a thread for that, and this'll go back and forth all day. We have a proven mentally unstable man on psychoactive drugs- should he have had guns? I'll not lie, he shouldn't have, but then, there's a lot of things here that shouldn't have happened prior to that as well, going back a few years from what I understand regarding him.

    EDIT: I am GLAD that you brought up the China example, though, I'll admit, because most people never bring that one up. Ever.
    chrlswltrs likes this.
  22. chrlswltrs

    chrlswltrs Extreme Android User

    SiempreTuna, you are right. Once the gun got past security it walked around wielding a deranged individual killing people who couldn't stop it.

    I sure hope that none of my guns ever decide to go on a killing spree and use me forcibly against my will to carry them... :rolleyes:

    Just so you can be better informed, I am a veteran so I know how military bases operate. Once you are past the checkpoint you are in a defenseless victim zone.
  23. chrlswltrs

    chrlswltrs Extreme Android User

    Not just his mental instability, but his past use of guns. He shot out someone's tires over an argument and shot through his neighbors wall for having music too loud. Even with all this he maintained his top secret security clearance. I don't know how that happened (since you can be denied a confidential level clearance just for having bad credit).

    There are some people that shouldn't have guns, but the honest law abiding citizens shouldn't be punished because of a few deranged people, the same as all law abiding citizens are not punished when drunk drivers kill people.

    This isn't about guns as much as the gun grabbing nut jobs want it to be though. This is about a crazy person on mind altering prescription drugs killing people on a base where our service members have been disarmed and unable to protect themselves, even though they risk their lives to protect this country.
  24. dibblebill

    dibblebill Android Expert

    To be fair, though, some of the groups grabbing their guns are theo nes grabbing them to 'defend' them. A lot of those FOR the private ownership of guns are crazy, too. I've heard a lot of bad arguments supporting gun ownership.

    Back to the discussion at hand, so it is confirmed that it was only one, and not three, gunmen?
  25. chrlswltrs

    chrlswltrs Extreme Android User

    Pretty sure that is the story now. Just like during Sandy Hook there were multiple shooters while the event was happening (caught on live video that time) and now there is only one dead gunman.

    Just like so many events we won't know the whole truth for decades though when no one cares anymore.

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