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Nursing Home Staff Refuses To Perform CPR On Dying Woman

Discussion in 'Politics and Current Affairs' started by Gmash, Mar 5, 2013.

  1. Gmash

    Gmash Extreme Android User
    Thread Starter

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  2. SiempreTuna

    SiempreTuna Android Expert

    That really is horrific! That nursing home should be put out of business now. "It's our policy" is no defence.

    And that jobsworth should go to jail - she didn't just refuse to give CPR, she prevented anyone else doing it, too. That has to be manslaughter at the very least. The dispatcher even told her she wouldn't be liable.

    Gmash likes this.
  3. DonB

    DonB ♡ Truth, Justice and the American Way !! ♡ ™

    I moved the thread to P&CA and it will be best served here, cheers
    breadnatty08 likes this.
  4. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Extreme Android User

    It's a complete non-story. The woman who died had signed an agreement saying she did not want resuscitation. Why the media doesn't emphasize that is beyond me.
    Bob Maxey likes this.
  5. pastafarian

    pastafarian Pâtes avec votre foie

    This is probably not a legal issue, AFAIK no one is required to perform CPR. This could be the impetus for some legal reform. What it is is deeply saddening that an individual could stand by and let another die while possessing the skill to possibly prevent it. I know I couldn't regardless of any company rules.

    Another thing this should bring to light? Learn CPR...EVERYBODY! It's easy, free and you might save a life. My wish is that CPR be taught to every school child as soon as they are old enough. This way, eventually everyone will know how to do it.
    davoid and Gmash like this.
  6. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Extreme Android User

    In this particular case it's absolutely a legal issue. If nurse's in the nursing resuscitate patients, then they don't have an assisted living facility they have a skilled nursing facility which is subject to completely different rules/regulations. But, at the end of the day, the resident in question here agreed, in writing, that if anything happened to her the nurses would not try to resuscitate her. That is what she agreed to. If the nurse here had attempted CPR she would be guilty of assault.
  7. Gmash

    Gmash Extreme Android User
    Thread Starter

    Yeah, well some of us here are humans, Spock.
  8. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Extreme Android User

    Then enjoy your time in jail. Knowingly violating a DNR is assault or agg assault depending on the circumstances. Furthermore, people who are revived by such methods often face severe health consequences and feel that they would've been better off dead which is why they signed the order in the first place. So you've actually harmed the person by resuscitating them.
  9. SiempreTuna

    SiempreTuna Android Expert

    The story certainly didn't mention any DNR. That would certainly change things. You'd think the nurse would have mention it to the dispatcher ..
  10. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Extreme Android User

    Also, I just want to say that as a former 911 dispatcher, the dispatcher in this case was completely and totally unprofessional. Over the top unprofessional.
  11. jerofld

    jerofld Fixing stuff is not easy

    I also could not find any mention of a DNR. I'm also curious as to why the nurse would request EMS if the patient had a DNR? The authorities would have to be notified, I understand that for confirmation of death. But EMS would not have to be dispatched.
  12. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Extreme Android User

    The patient didn't sign a formal DNR. The nursing home she was living in was not a skilled nursing home and is not allowed to give medical services. She agreed to this when she moved in.
  13. pastafarian

    pastafarian Pâtes avec votre foie

    Not sure if this has relevance in this particular case, but I'll add it just the same-

    What does the law say about administrating CPR

    I've seen no mention of a DNR and this would certainly seem to eliminate liability unless the nurse wasn't CPR certified (???). Still, if you have the ability and can still stand back even while someone pleads for you to help? That's pretty cold in my book. I'm not calling for anyone's head on a platter, but I know I couldn't/wouldn't have done the same (and I am CPR/AED certified).
  14. jerofld

    jerofld Fixing stuff is not easy

    Ok, that makes sense and explains why the authorities are not seeking criminal negligence charges. There is simply no grounds in that case. It is still odd that she would actively prevent anyone else from performing it, outside of concern for a liability suit?

    So the issue will be if basic first aid and CPR training should be a trivial matter to implement and have a small, if not unnoticeable, increase in premium. Or, more than likely, it will be a stalled issue until the public forgets about it in a few days and be completely dropped there after.
  15. Gmash

    Gmash Extreme Android User
    Thread Starter

    Hopefully the publicity will be enough to put these heartless bastards out of business.
  16. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Extreme Android User

    I've not heard the part where she actively prevented anyone from performing CPR. The story is somewhat inaccurate as the person in question wasn't hired to be a nurse. She was hired for some sort of admin job (resident director or something).

    Having staff certified and required to perform first aid and CPR means, in the state they're in, that you have a skilled nursing home. This requires completely different compliance with a completely different set of regs which is more expensive. If I read the story correctly, this facility does have a skilled nursing wing or whatever, but this woman was not a resident there.

    The story is getting blown way, way, way, way out of proportion though. Stuff like this happens every single day. People regularly refuse to do CPR for any number of reasons. It's a non-issue.
  17. pbf98

    pbf98 Android Expert

    Seems familiar to the lifeguard in FL who was fired for saving someone just because the person was drowning out of is "coverage"

    He was eventually offered his job back but refused stating he shouldn't have been terminated in the first place.

    A human life is a human life, policies should not be put in front of someones life. If in fact the woman did not want to be resuscitated its one thing, and it should have been stated in the call. If its because she signed a contract to live there (like i have heard is some variations) its something completely different.

    I respect people's life decisions, even when it goes what I want. But policies that are just there to ensure greedy people don't sue is not someones decision, even if they sign knowingly (or unknowlingly) stating that they understand they will have no help until emergency responders get there
  18. davoid

    davoid Android Expert

    It sounds like an issue to me.
    Gmash likes this.
  19. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Extreme Android User

    In a city as big as London I can guarantee you it happens multiple times every single day. It wouldn't have been an issue if it wasn't for this dispatcher acting about as unprofessional as you possibly can.
  20. Gmash

    Gmash Extreme Android User
    Thread Starter

    The dispatcher was unprofessional? You are unbelievable. Let's hope it's not your mom laying there gasping for air next time. Nice Christian values, there.
  21. huh

    huh Android Expert


    but here is my two cents anyway...:rolleyes:
    If the woman had a DNR then by all means you DO NOT start CPR! I would be furious if someone didn't respect those wishes and did it anyway...

    If she did not have a formal DNR and was not given CPR strictly because she was in an assisted living facility as opposed to a skilled nursing facility..
    Then That is completely outrageous and unacceptable...

    CPR is not brain surgery ..nor does it require a medical degree to perform. In order to teach( or even work) in an elementary school at least here where I live you must be CPR certified.. as well as any community education programs..including the senior centers and adult education classes...Why in the world wouldn't an assisted living facility require it's staff to be CPR certified as a condition of employment? and how could having CPR trained staff automatically label anything a skilled nursing facility?
    the whole thing smells fishy to me.....
  22. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Extreme Android User

    Clearly you've never been a dispatcher. You've never done the job. The absolute last thing you do on a call is belittle the caller which is exactly what this dispatcher did. You never ever do that. Further more at one point she told the caller that the 911 center would assume all legal liability. She has no authority at all to do that and it opens both her personally and the center as a whole up to a ginormous law suit. She basically told the lady that she wasn't a good human being for just standing by. How is that professional at all?

    I've taken that phone call many, many times where someone refused to do CPR. You never ever belittle someone for that. You are not there. They may be looking at a loved one who has clearly been dead for some time. They may be traumatized by the entire situation and not want to intervene. Furthermore, CPR performed over the phone on the instructions given by a dispatcher is almost always fruitless. It almost never saves anyone's life. The person is usually too far gone and/or the caller doesn't have the training and/or despite their training gets flipped out in the situation and performs it wrong. Any dispatcher worth their salt knows that the primary purpose of having a caller perform CPR is to give the caller something to do. You are going to keep them on the line until an ambulance or rescue squad actually arrives and can provide ALS and you are trying to keep the caller busy so they don't completely freak out. It is very, very common for bystanders to not want to/refuse to perform CPR.

    This dispatcher took a stressful situation and made it worse. That is the cardinal sin of a dispatcher. Your job is to defuse the situation as much as possible before help arrives, not make it worse.
  23. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Extreme Android User

    What I'm reading is it wasn't an assisted living facility like people were saying earlier, but is actually an independent living facility.
  24. copestag

    copestag Android Expert

    will have to straddle the fence on this one...

    as a human being I would have felt obliged to do something


    there are many variables in play here......

    did she truely have a DNR..... if she did then any assistance provided would have been a felony... regardless of what a 911 dispatcher may say

    was this just company policy to avoid lawsuits...... sadly it may have been..... and if instead of giving free insurance to illegals we actually did some tort reform then we wouldnt be so worried about lawsuits

    also worth noting....... I havent heard a single report that said she had heart failure......... she was gasping for breath and stopped breathing....... in which case being currently certified and administering CPR under the new HOCPR guidelines would not have helped her anyhow........ since HOCPR (the currently recommended and sanctioned cpr method by any institution that matters) does not administer breathing assistance at all.... just chest compressions

    of course as I said....... being human I would have felt obliged to take whatever actions I felt necessary to save a life.... despite the consequences
  25. A.Nonymous

    A.Nonymous Extreme Android User

    Supposedly, the independent living facility is not licensed or required to be licensed by the state. The minute you have your staff perform medical services you are either assisted living or skilled nursing depending on exactly what you offer which means you must be licensed/regulated by the state at that point. Obviously there's extra costs for being licensed/regulated and the facility does offer those services in a different wing for extra cost. This woman and/or her family chose to forego that for the independent living side.

    My grandmother was living in one these independent living facilities when she passed. They are basically apartment complexes. The seniors live on their own and the center may provide them transportation to/from doctor's appointments or the store or help them coordinate that. They also may provide simple recreational activities like a common room or bingo or a class or something. That's about it.

    The one my grandmother was in provided a call button that the resident could push and someone from the front office (who was not a nurse) would call up and check on them if the button was pushed. The one she was in would call my mother if they got no response and my mom could either have them go up and knock on the door or she could come over and go up there herself. Additionally the one my grandmother was in would deliver newspapers every day and if they saw two newspapers that had not been picked up they would call my mother to make sure my grandmother was not out of town or something and, by policy, would only go into the apartment at that point with either my mother or someone she designated.

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