1. Check out our companion app, Forums for Android! Download from Google Play

Palm New OS better then Android? A true Ipod Challenger?

Discussion in 'Android Lounge' started by blakmagik01, Jan 8, 2009.

  1. blakmagik01

    blakmagik01 Guest
    Thread Starter

    Palm introduced the Pre today at CES and i must say, it looks slicker and sexier then Android. The icons are modern and have a gloss and the hardware is a bit sexier then the G1. What i found really interesting is the reaction from people, especially many of the commentators on the iphone friendly blog engadget. Iphone users loved the interface.

    article, pics, videos here http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/08/...s-video-and-huge-hands-on-gallery/3#c16471997

    here's something else to notice. Shares of Palm jumped 34% even though the the dow was down. Clearly some investors think it's a winner too. Google by the way was up only .99%

    Is Android in danger? I don't see any android phones on the way in the states. The interface though, nice is not slick, and the menus lack the sheen or gloss you see in OS's like Leapord or say Vista or even on the ipod, that i think wow people. It's a bit utilitarian.

    What do you think? is this a true competitor to the ipod? Is it going to leapfrog Android in the mobile OS wars?

    Does google need to take immediate steps to either update the UI or release a way to skin the UI, or both?


  2. While I have to disagree about the looks and layout of the phone (personal choice) I do agree the software is really nice looking and polished. But looks are not the only thing to consider so without using it I can't say one way or the other on if I would choose it and it's operating system over apple or android....

    As far as the OS wars I think you overlooked the most important thing OPEN SOURCE this is the draw to android for almost ALL the users and manufacturer draw would be simply FREE OS.....That being said however you also must take into consideration that this software is barley out of the beta stage give it time man and yes there are MANY android phones on the way but they will probably not hit until later this year my guess is most companies are waiting for a few things... android's cupcake update allowing more features to be used properly and for paid apps to have time to develop a following....
  3. atleastihaveMMS


    Dec 15, 2008
    wow...did NOT expect to be impressed by Palm this much, but I am.

    The OS is VERY sleek, very responsive.

    • High-speed wireless (EV-DO Rev. A or HSDPA, depending on version)
    • 802.11b / g WiFi
    • Integrated GPS
    • 3.1-inch 24-bit color 480 x 320 display
    • Dedicated gesture area below display
    • Slide-out portrait QWERTY keyboard
    • Exchange email support in addition to POP and IMAP
    • IM, MMS, and SMS messaging
    • High-performance browser
    • 3-megapixel camera with LED flash and "extended depth of field"
    • 3.5mm headphone jack
    • Bluetooth 2.1 + EDR with A2DP
    • 8GB of internal storage
    • USB mass storage mode
    • MicroUSB connectivity with USB 2.0
    • Proximity sensor for detecting when phone is near face
    • Light sensor to automatically dim display
    • Ringer mute switch
    • Removable rechargeable battery
    • 59.57 x 100.53 x 16.95mm closed
    • 4.76 ounces

    If I were to switch to Sprint ever (I have a company discount with them), I always thought I'd go with an htc phone, but seeing as all their current htc phones are WinMo, this would be MUCH better.

    edit: Seriously, no one else is posting in this thread? I'm still reading up on it, that's how impressed I am. Not just me, it's the general consensus online as well.
  4. blakmagik01

    blakmagik01 Guest
    Thread Starter

    in my experience that is not the reason the average consumer buys a phone. when i've been in the T-mobile store i've never heard anyone say they want a G1 because it's open source. Not saying it doesn't happen or your a liar or anything. It's just not my experience. That usually just buy a phone that does whatever it is they want, looks good, performs good, etc. If it does more of whatever that person wants becasue it's open source great but they aren't out crusading for open source. That seems to be more of an early adopter/techy guy approach. For example, Firefox is great and open source but i'd guess most people buy it for the simple reason that it does what they want.

    In the space of small electronics i don't think giving it time is a sound business strategy. They could find themselves behind because they didn't act fast enough.

    And Ipod and it's OS are the big dogs in the yard now and i think the major appeal, along with it being an ipod, is it's realatively clean, sleek, and approachable to the average user. And i don't think you can ever discount how important looks are to a consumer product. as for new android phones i know you're right. That said, i've never seen one that's coming out anytime soon. A new Windows Mobile phone seems to get announced every week.
  5. While I have to concede you are right as far as the impulse buyers and gotta have it people go... but those people who actually use the phones for purpose beyond the look what I have bit put research and thought into what they buy and why they buy it... We do look for things like open source or potential development.... As far as apple they were HUGE innovators NO one can deny it! but in just a few short years people are moving away from them for other choices and it's not because of a lack of clean sleek and refined software it's because of the limits the software has currently hit and will continue to hit in the future... As phones become more like PC's people will start to look for these kind of things more and more without question....
  6. blakmagik01

    blakmagik01 Guest
    Thread Starter

    That's exactly why i brought it up. I'm not even sold on the shape of the phone. i do like my physical keyboards though.
    PCMag says

    The Palm Pre: CES 2009's Hottest Product http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2338482,00.asp

    USA Today reported on it
    Palm's new Pre smartphone gets lots of good buzz

    Hell it could be a complete fail but it could provide competition and push the android developers and be a longterm win for Android users.
  7. blakmagik01

    blakmagik01 Guest
    Thread Starter

    maybe you're right. i don't know that in terms of handset sales whether people are actually moving away from the ipod. I don't have numbers though. But i'm not really talking about impulse buyers. I was talking about those that do research. I just don't think most of those people are buying because of open source. The housewives, business people, average female shopper? They just say it's cool. but like i said maybe this will make the Android guys push out some new innovative features.
  8. I think the best thing to do here is to agree we are both right.... we could go on and on and both continue to make very valid points from obviously different points of view but I will have to say the new linux kernel in the pre is a win but the fact it is not yet backwards compatible it a HUGE drawback for me!

    As per the article on PCMAG -

    "one thing that could bother a lot of devoted Treo users: offer backward compatibility for existing Palm apps. There's no SDK yet, but it will likely be announced soon. Palm reps told me that rewriting code for this platform should be trivial; that remains to be seen."
  9. blakmagik01

    blakmagik01 Guest
    Thread Starter

    i spoke to a someone at CES. No Android phones are there. The only android device was the tablet. He said, if there is an android phone that's going to come out this year nobody but insiders know about it. Did say the pre was all the buzz. I do get your backward compatibility point. I haven't had a palm since like the palm two so that never even occured to me.
  10. johnkzin

    johnkzin Well-Known Member

    Sep 28, 2008
    When Palm's OS is on multiple devices, including non-cellphone gadgets like tablets (GiiNii Movit Mini and Maxx) desk phones (forget the vendor) and netbooks, it'll be a threat to Android.

    Unless/until it's on those types of devices, and open source, I wont be interested in it.
  11. dkaufman1

    dkaufman1 Well-Known Member

    Oct 24, 2008
    Android Scientists
    The Lab
    Palm can surely resurrect itself, I have no doubt.

    Threats to Android or iPhone are a bit much right now. Android and iPhone have carriers and phones in the hands of consumers right now. They have huge leads on the market. iPhone is crushing the competition in many facets.

    Not sure what market the Palm is aiming for but they lost most corporate support in favor of Blackberry, and consumers have the aforementioned.

    My quick take is better late than never, but Palm needs to deliver the handset before a true judgement can be made.

    Interesting to note that Android's OS possibly due to "free and Open source" is being ported and considered for netbooks. History has shown only Palm tried to move their OS from a small screen to larger one. Windows and Apple never tried that move. Just an interesting side note.
  12. blakmagik01

    blakmagik01 Guest
    Thread Starter

    if you're interested it's up on their website already. Check the gallery for some nice pics.


    from what i hear it will be released on Sprint. no price final but i don't think it will be under $200 which could be a major downside from the Palm perspective and plus for other phone makers.

    You can anticipate that this will be on all Palm products as well so they are likely to have the OS on multiple carriers eventually.

    interesting note on netbooks. i was watching a tech analyst on cnbc and they were saying that netbooks aren't selling well relative to the rest of consumer products. Me personally i don't care about netbooks.

  13. There is a huge reason why netbooks don't sell well and everyone seems to over look it... if you have a desktop and you have a smart phone why bother spending money on a larger smartphone without the phone part.... Seriously why would any G1, Iphone, Blackberry, etc... users spend money on something they already have in their pocket?
  14. blakmagik01

    blakmagik01 Guest
    Thread Starter

    just to tack on to your point. I read an article about netbooks and the guy said it had not really caught on in the states but was more popular overseas. So maybe part of it is just the nature of the U.S. market but it's doing well somewhere else. Another thing is you have to think that as video and hd video becomes as common digitally as say, mp3 are (and digital music generally) people will may still want computers that have the power netbooks may not provide.
  15. sirgranitehead


    Nov 3, 2008
    Here's a couple reasons why I'm not worried about Palm fighting with Android:

    As some people mentioned, Android has a lot more potential than phones. Netbooks, tablets, GPS, Set top Boxes, hell, they could end up making android toasters.

    Palm is closed. Android is open. People do go buying Android phones because it is open source. The reason some above posters do not have that experience is because most of the time people don't realize that they're doing that. They see android cheaper than iphone or palm (cheaper because its open source). They will see more apps available on android than on iphone or palm (more because its open and w/o approval process). Stuff like that.

    Android is an operating system, not a handset. The Palm Pre will compete with the G1, sure, but Palm will mostly be competing with Apple and RIM here. Nobody else can make an iphone, a palm, or a blackberry, so they'll make an android phone (unless they make winmo, which will happen less and less)

    Google. Palm makes money only when people buy palm handsets. Google makes money when people buy Palm handsets, or iphones, or blackberries, or android phones, because Google makes money when people go online. Whatever smartphone you buy, Google profits, and that helps android.

    Here's a couple reasons I'm glad Palm got a slice of awesome:

    Competes with iphone. One, I don't like apple. Two, keeps apple from becoming so overwhelmingly popular that its hard for anyone to compete. By maintaining competition, it makes it easier for others to compete.

    Gives others a kick in the pants. Many people thought the G1 was ugly. It wasn't overly pretty because it didn't have to be. iphones are pretty, but they're expensive and only on AT&T and locked down solid by apple. The rest of the G1's competition wasn't that pretty, so it didn't have to be to get sold. Now there are other pretty phones. HTC and Samsung and everyone will need to get their pretty on to compete.
  16. not only that but it is possible that android being open source that it will be able to run other smart phone apps... Take into consideration that since the advent of Linux being used in some form on smart phones more and more smart phones are adapting to it...case in point PALM! now running on linux.... if they are all linux based and all closed source except for android eventually we will be able to run other apps from other smart phones making it untouchable....
  17. punkzanyj

    punkzanyj Well-Known Member

    Oct 20, 2008
    As someone who would consider a netbook, and is a G1 owner I'll tell you why - keyboard and screen size. It all comes down to comfort.

    The screen on the G1 is a great size for a smartphone, but not big enough to be a useful replacement for a PC/Laptop. If you fit an entire webpage on the screen, top to bottom, left to right, you can't read anything. To make it readable you have to zoom in, which means more scrolling. It means more work. It's like using a papertowel roll to look at your screen, you loose all peripheral vision, and thus it feels cramped, like you're missing something.
    A netbook is much more desirable. I type 60 words a minute, and you can't do that with a G1 typing with your thumbs -- there's a new medical condition, similar to carpal tunnel, but they're calling it "Blackberry Thumb" -- people are getting repetative stress injuries from using their thumbs to type.

    Simply put, trying to use a G1, Treo, Palm, iPhone as a replacement for a pc is just ASKING for an injury, and not a fun one. Netbooks bridge the gap between smartphone and PC/Laptop. That may not be a reality some people are willing to believe, but it will become more and more apparent the more people are trying to use their smartphone as a laptop.

    One thing I wonder if anyone has considered. Part of the achillies heal of WinMo is that it was created as a PDA, the software wasn't built for Data and phonecalls -- those were additions, and WinMo doesn' do so well because at it's core it's an organizer, not a phone, not a smartphone, and not a true PC replacement. Does/will Palm have the same handicap?

    GODMODE Well-Known Member

    I think the new PalmOS (webOs) and hardware looks damn nice. The OS reacts very nicely to finger touch, and it really smooth. The one thing that will make or break it is the App Store. Although, all the video I have seen on it only showcase how the interface reacts... I want to see the calendar, email, messaging, and so forth. The key elements, please :)

    What I really want to see is a full screen touch android phone. So far Lenovo is releassing one in China, but I would like some options for america. .. and now that there is going to be an on-screen KB the chance to get this done by other OEMs is ripe.
  19. dkaufman1

    dkaufman1 Well-Known Member

    Oct 24, 2008
    Android Scientists
    The Lab
    This type of article does not bode well for right now -


    I don't mind the "idea" of the article, but one of the first comments is how the G1 was barely mentioned (only 2 times) and could have easily tied a few times. It's a little dangerous when they compare a phone not out, a phone with gigantic market share and and an OS. Not really apples to apples, but we will certainly see more of these types of comparisons soon.
  20. johnkzin

    johnkzin Well-Known Member

    Sep 28, 2008
  21. Cryptic79

    Cryptic79 Well-Known Member

    Sep 10, 2008
    SharePoint Architect
    St. Louis, MO

    Johnkzin: 1
    Gizmodo's anal attraction to all things Apple: 0
  22. johnkzin

    johnkzin Well-Known Member

    Sep 28, 2008
    Thanks, punkzanyj ... if this forum had a "thanks" button/feature, I'd have just clicked that.

    The idea that netbooks are useless because you don't need a netbook if you have a desktop and a smartphone is pretty silly. For one, that same argument applies to laptops, and laptops are just fine as a market segment. And that right there tells you what a netbook's competition is: not smartphones and desktops, but laptops and UMPCs.

    Laptops have evolved into replacements for low-end desktops. It used to be that people routinely had both, because a laptop wasn't up to the task of fully replacing a desktop. Around 2000, that stopped being the case. Unless you're doing high end engineering/rendering/cad work, or high end gaming, a good laptop can serve as your only computer. So, what happened to the old "shuttle computer" concept of the laptop? A light device for taking notes, doing light tasks while mobile, but not something you'd use as a desktop replacement?

    That's pretty much the niche of the netbook. You might say "what about smartphones and MIDs". And I'd say: they're too feature limited, and in a lot of cases, they don't truly offer the full experience of a laptop or desktop. Ever try to add a tag in Google Reader, on your phone? Or add/edit a Gmail filter? I have yet to see a smartphone that can do those (not even the G1; I'm constantly having to mark Reader articles "keep unread" so that I can deal with them when I get back to my UMPC or desktop ... or leave an email unread so that I can "send as" one of my other email addresses) (as far as I know, no matter how much the newer smartphones say they give you the full/real web, they're lying, they just give you a better web experience that previous phones). Ever try to take an hours worth of meeting/lecture notes on your G1, Nokia E61i, Nokia N810, iPhone, or Blackberry? I've done it on an N810, but I had to use an external keyboard... and even then, it was rather limited. (I know, the N810 isn't a smartphone, it's a MID, but smartphone interfaces are even less functional than the N810's, so if you can't do it on an N810, you definitely can't do iton a smartphone). The G1 can do very light weight notes, but anything more is just "too much" ... and syncing those notes back to somewhere useful is a pain in the butt.

    With a netbook, with some adjustment, you can touch type on it. You can, in most cases, run desktop apps on it for things like note-taking, and you get the real web on it. You can hook it up to a KVM switch to use it like a light desktop. You can hook it up to a standard projector to make presentations. There are lots of sync options for getting your notes and such (anything the vendor didn't directly support) back up to your desktop.

    The idea that a smartphone displaces a netbook is absolutely silly. The real competition for netbooks is laptops and UMPC's. Both laptops and UMPCs tend to be MUCH more expensive than a netbook ($1200+ for a laptop or UMPC, $300-$900 for a netbook). And laptops are HUGE compared to a netbook.

    At first, I wasn't interested in a netbook at all. It was just "a tiny laptop". And "too big" compared to my N810. But over time I realized that instead of the EeePC being too big, the N810 was really "too small". The three things my N810 had that a good smartphone didn't were "800x600 4.8inch display", "real SSH+VNC", and "real web browser". Everything else was effectively a preference for one pocketable vs another. But over time, I found that it's small display/keyboard and lack of connectivity were too annoying. I didn't want to carry one tiny connected and limited use device (phone), and a second tiny device that was useful and non-connected, and then have to add a third device that was fully useful and merely small as opposed to tiny.

    So then I started to evaluate UMPCs and netbooks. Laptops are just too big (my gadget bag is big enough for a Samsung Q1 Ultra, or possibly and 8.9" netbook -- anything I buy will have to fit into that bag; it's a Maxpedition Colossus if anyone wants to look it up). I don't want to carry a big ol' laptop bag, or laptop backpack/etc. I want something small that I just sling over my back and barely notice. But it has to fit into my mobile device strategy:

    1. One pocketable device, which is always* connected, sync'ed for calendar/contacts/etc., and usable for quick and dirty work like checking web monitors for my servers, maybe making quick web console changes, and maybe text console changes via an SSH program. Ideally, it would have SSH+VNC support for GUI console access, and do tethering to support my next item. It must also be a phone of some sort (I could tolerate a VOIP-only device, if the quality is high enough ... but I have yet to use a VOIP service that didn't suffer from too many distortions), and it must have a physical keyboard (not going to debate it; virtual keyboards are just not accept able to me). (* always meaning "wherever there is a signal"; I don't expect it to be connected when I'm out in the high desert, or in a remote mountain valley)
    2. One medium size device, which can run real apps (fully featured web browser, fully featured Office apps, fully featured IM apps, fully SSH+VNC), with touch typing for comfortable typing at full speed. It has to be small enough to fit in my gadget bag, light enough that I don't notice carrying it in my gadget bag, and it has to have some form of internet connectivity (Idealy, internal PCI-Express-Mini card slot for native 3G/4G access; tethering through my phone is an acceptable alternative; an external data card is barely acceptable). It also has to be small enough for me to comfortably use it just in my two hands (not even on my lap), such as when I'm on a train or on the express bus that connects San Jose (where I live) and Santa Cruz (where I work). Last, it has to be able to display itself on a regular monitor some how (having a VNC server that I can somehow securely display on my desktop's monitor is fine).
    3. Any other device I carry must be able to fit in my gadget bag, and not need me to directly interact with it (except maybe to turn it on and off, and charging it). So, for example, if the lack of tethering on my G1 forces me to get a Cradlepoint router, then that's fine, because I can leave it in the bottom of my bag and not care about it. Whereas separating the first device into a MID and a dumbphone isn't acceptable because it means I'd have to touch both devices in order to get things done. Other devices that could fit into this category include the elusive, often demo'ed, but never released, bluetooth hard drives.
    4. Oh, and, the OS I use for the pocketable and netbook/UMPC must be open source. These days that's pretty much going to eliminate anyone othr than Symbian and Android on the phone, and Android, Linux, *BSD on the netbook/UMPC. If Android fixes a few things (full Gmail features, full Google Reader features, full Google Docs features, SSH+VNC, more IM features, SyncML client for Calendar) it would be ideal across the board. Otherwise, I'll probably end up with some Ubuntu version on the netbook/UMPC.

    My ideal would be:
    Pocketable: A slightly better Android phone ... something the shape of the AT&T Quickfire, with a tilt screen, running Android, with tethering and SSH+VNC support.

    netbook/UMPC:A convertible-tablet netbook running Ubuntu of some sort. I'd really love Ubuntu-UMPC on the Fujitsu Lifebook U820 ... if Ubuntu-UMPC was a little better polished, and the U820 had an internal PCI-Express-Mini slot for an optional 3G card. I'm really looking forward to the convertible tablet version of the Classmate 2go netbook, and the EeePC T91, once I find out what their linux versions wil be.

    What I'm using right now:
    Pocketable: The G1. It would be nice if I could get the VNC Viewer to do password authentication while tunneled through SSH/ConnectBot (it says it supports it now, but I haven't been able to get it to work), and if it did tethering (that issue might actually get me to switch back to my E61i for my pocketable).

    netbook/UMPC: Samsung Q1 Ultra running Ubuntu-UMPC. It has some rough edges, and limited battery life (2.25 hours). And its built in thumb keyboard has some shortcomings. Using this for a few months has pretty much shifted me towards wanting a convertible-tablet netbook (I like the touch screen tablet ability, but there are cases where I definitely want/need a bigger keyboard than a thumb keyboard; most UMPCs have a thumb keyboard instead of a real keyboard). And, overall, the UMPC category is priced higher than what options it gives you over the cheaper netbook category. This, I'm gravitating more toward the netbook afterall.

    A second idea, if Android gets those features fixed, would be a Redfly for Android device. Especially if they had a convertible-tablet version of their "netbook" like device. But this option heavily depends upon Android fixing those 6 issues.

    But, to get back to the original point: no, netbooks aren't the thing displaced by a smartphone nor desktop. MIDs are displaced by smartphones, IMO. Or, they will be as the smartphone continues to evolve (once the have real browsers, for example). The three current market segments I see are:

    • pocketables: smartphones and MIDs (or "MID-like", as the Nokia tablets are technically not true MIDs, as the term was defined by Intel... because they don't have Intel processors).
    • Netbooks and UMPCs: there are various ways to delineate these, but in my mind UMPCs (like the OQO, Sony UX, Samsung Q1/Q1 Ultra) are more expensive, and tend to be tablet oriented, with or without a physical thumb keyboard. Netbooks tend to be cheaper and mini-laptops (with or without a convertible-tablet format).
    • Laptops and Desktops: these days, laptops are really like "all one one" desktops... except they can be folded up and taken with you. The differences are obscure, unless you really need a high end desktop for either gaming or heavy computing work.

    If you need something bigger than a pocketable, but lighter/smaller than a desktop or laptop, then the netbook is not a lost category. And a smartphone will not satisfy your needs there. In that case, a netbook's competition will be an UMPC, and your main decision will be "do I need to go as big/expensive as a laptop, or can I get away with something smaller?"
  23. johnkzin

    johnkzin Well-Known Member

    Sep 28, 2008
    And before anyone suggests that this means you don't need a netbook:

    1) It shows that even Android has a few software shortcomings that aren't present in the OS's used in the two larger categories, because it would only be acceptable if Android fixes those shortcomings.
    2) It shows that even if the software problems were addressed, you still need the larger interface (display and keyboard, options for external display and keyboard, etc.).

    N3TWORK BURN3R Well-Known Member

    Sep 24, 2008
    Graphic Design/Help Desk
    Long Beach, CA
    If this phone ever arrives to Tmobile, im gonna grab one for sure. I simply love the look and responsiveness of the OS. It looks like a solid product for sure.
  25. Agreed but I am not going to let go of the G1 reason being that they are both running with the same Linux kernel this being said it's only a few tweaks away from running Palm apps on the G1 or future TMO Android phones... I just don't think most people are even taking into consideration that most phone dev are going with some form of Linux and it will continue to increase in that direction and the only open source so far is Android... this is going to be huge for Android......

Share This Page