Should Apple Help the FBI Unlock a Phone with a Court Order

[Deleted User]

John Mcafee will hack it for them

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/02/19/john-mcafee-ill-hack-san-bernardino-terrorists-iphone

Yeah good luck with that one John

 

[dontpanicbobby]

Admin, Mods, and Guides are supposed to stay out of political conversations last I checked. It's been quite some time though and when I did last stray I got a pretty rapid PM abut it. So no PM then I guess you're fine. That being said...

Why the heck can't the FBI do it themselves? Do they not have tech support?

 

[dan330]

FBI don't pay enough to keep the really good tech nerds... they go into commercial sector where all the money is.

 

[Deleted User]

Admin, Mods, and Guides are supposed to stay out of political conversations last I checked. It's been quite some time though and when I did last stray I got a pretty rapid PM abut it. So no PM then I guess you're fine. That being said...

Why the heck can't the FBI do it themselves? Do they not have tech support?

The FBI can't remove the 10 passcode attempt check. To do that they would have to reverse engineer the iOS code, and recompile it. That probably infringes Apple's terms of use.

 

[jj14x]

Should the Government be allowed to tell corporations that security should be hackable by them? While I am no fan of the Apple I do commend them and their stance on the issue. They have told the FBI they will not assist in such behavior. I commend them as they are telling the Government OUR Clients come first.

This is tricky. I do value my privacy, but I also want to be safe. Part of me thinks that the Govt (with a warrant) should be able to get into a device (like they can get into a physical location), if that is to eliminate a credible threat. Problem is of course, that who will make sure that this will not be misused.

No OS is completely secure. Zero day exploits are brought to light fairly often. Apple themselves just fixed a fairly critical bug (CVE-2016-1730) in 9.2.1, that was reported in June 2013! So, hackers can likely get into your data. Microsoft/Google/Apple already can likely get into most of your data (since it is stored on their servers). So, why shouldn't the Govt (with a proper warrant)?

There is a book called three felonies a day. Apparently everyone commits multiple felonies per day without realizing. Selective enforcement would be an issue.

True! Think about red-light cameras, and all the complaints against them. Cities are doing that to make money (and hopefully to make roads safer) - yet, people complain - the folks that jump red lights and are ticketed. I don't get how that complaint/case makes it anywhere, yet it results in these cameras being taken down.

To be clear, I am not supporting either side. In the red-light scenario, the person DID break the law by jumping the red light - should the fact that it was caught by a machine versus an actual cop make any difference? Should the fact that the city probably did that to increase their revenue change the fact that the person broke the law?

I don't (as far as I know) store any illegal things on my phone (/cloud) - is it possible that I have something in my files that may break some 19th century law that everybody forgot to repeal? I don't know. Will I volunteer my data for inspection to anyone? No!

When I use any device, I use it with the assumption that the Govt can get into it. I do encrypt my data, but basically to protect it from the average Joe if I lose the media

Just some random thoughts

 

[kryptonyt]

Where is MacGyver when you need him?

 

[kryptonyt]

I heard a call in person say: Why not have Apple open this one phone and give it to the FBI ( reasonable cause ) But not give them the secret to opening all Apples ( New Techno-Worm )
But what if the Terrorist left the phone as a Ruse. Open the phone and lead everyone on a wild goose chase into the belly of the beast?
And what if someone wanted to really see if Apple is an ally and sends an iphone to the FBI with real data about the next 25 Terrorist attacks on US soil all equal to or worse than 911. Would all of the privacy fanatics still say STAND UP FOR PRIVACY or let the bombs land where they may? Or what about a super hack like on Mr Robot or Live Free or Die Hard? Lot's of stories about that type of terrorism these days. The head of Homeland Security last week on 60 mins said exactly that: " not worried about the bombs and bullets but the possibility that once inside your house anything is possible.
Just saying......

 

[Unforgiven]

The questions has been asked, and the previously ambiguous thread title (now changed) confused the point, of why this thread isn't in Politics and Current Affairs and has moderators both starting and participating in it.

The thread was started by a moderator after discussion among the us about the appropriateness of having this thread in the lounge where it will attract the most discussion. While we recognize it can be a politically charged topic, the discussion thus far has been both civil and lacking the usual divisive rhetoric that epitomizes typical P&CA threads.

The topic is also of utmost relevance to this forum, as it affects all smartphone users, whether iOS, Android, WinPhone, RIM (is that still a thing) or any other.

So, credit to our members for thus far having heated yet civil discussion on the topic. I think that is well within the site rules and welcomed in our community. I hope that adds a little clarification as to both the location and staff participation in the thread.

Any questions, drop me a line.

 

[Gmash]

I heard a call in person say: Why not have Apple open this one phone and give it to the FBI ( reasonable cause ) But not give them the secret to opening all Apples ( New Techno-Worm )
But what if the Terrorist left the phone as a Ruse. Open the phone and lead everyone on a wild goose chase into the belly of the beast?
And what if someone wanted to really see if Apple is an ally and sends an iphone to the FBI with real data about the next 25 Terrorist attacks on US soil all equal to or worse than 911. Would all of the privacy fanatics still say STAND UP FOR PRIVACY or let the bombs land where they may? Or what about a super hack like on Mr Robot or Live Free or Die Hard? Lot's of stories about that type of terrorism these days. The head of Homeland Security last week on 60 mins said exactly that: " not worried about the bombs and bullets but the possibility that once inside your house anything is possible.
Just saying......

This is the crux of the matter. How much privacy are we willing to give up to, not ensure, but give law enforcement a better chance of ensuring our safety?
I don't blame Apple for not wanting to set this precedent lightly, but at the same time, what if an attack happened and it was later revealed it could have been prevented with information on the phone in question? There's no easy answer.
Basically, we need new laws to be written either way that get rid of this gray area so Apple (or whoever) isn't put in this no-win situation.

 

[hiredgun]

What I am wondering is that if push really comes to shove can anyone really tell the FBI no?????

 

[psionandy]

Isn't that why you have a constitution... So that if push does come to shove someone CAN tell the FBI no!

 

[bcrichster]

Law Enforcement already has access to our phone bands & channels via the Stingray projects for one. For another, we need to save what privacy we have so I actually have newfound respect for Apple's resistance

 

[mrex]

i would abandon my iphone (any ios/osx) on the day apple start building backdoors...

and for sensitive files i use an encryption tool anyway... like i have something to hide, lol... more like personal things - like job applications or so.. nothing fancy, but...

 

[shalemail]

From what I've read, experts say it would only take Apple an afternoon at most to get into the phone. They're not claiming they CAN'T do it, just that they WON'T.

I have mixed feelings about this. The knee jerk reaction is to say "hell, no, Apple, don't cave in". On the other hand, why should a phone be special? The government can get a warrant to go through and take anything in your house, your computer, phone and internet records, etc. So why not the phone? If this is the one thing that becomes known to be inaccessible by the authorities will the pedophiles just keep all of their kiddie porn on their iPhones? Terrorists will have a safe place to plot their atrocities without using the dark web or encrypted IM apps. Apple will eventually do what the government wants, either voluntarily or otherwise. As much as I value privacy, I just don't see a rational argument why a phone should be excluded from a search warrant.

Thanks for the well thought out answer, and I didn't see anyone touch on this, you mention personal PC's and whatnot covered by a warrant. I think the fundamental difference here is this. All Iphones are encrypted by design. No PC's are, you have to ADD security either software as part of the OS or hardware (biometric). So I think in a case of the cops taking possession of your PC and you having it locked down tight who do they go to to unlock it? The company that you got your security software (or hardware) from? The manufacturer of the PC? (Or they pull the hard drive and do it forensically) (I am assuming that don't work with storage on your phone? I honestly don't know.)

With Apple being the largest producer of cellular phones and the predominant provider of "work phones" they want their security to be "unhackable". I can dig that. Apple has painted a HUGE bulls eye on their back on this. If they fold on this, then - what is it they say? Once the door is cracked, it get's flung open. And I want my privacy, to be sure. But there has to be a line, a set of circumstances, very black and white, very strict, that once crossed, once lives are at stake, once you have a kidnapped little kid that the clock is ticking on, there has to be a way to access this data. I see the need for that. As a parent, as a husband, as an American. There just has to be a very narrow set of acceptable reasons to unlock a locked phone.

 

[Crashdamage]

Let's put some perspective on this... as I said in post #2, whether "the authorities" - cops, 3-letter government agencies, whoever - can be granted access to your phone has been answered dozens of times already. YES. That's a given. It's not a question of privacy anymore.

The only thing that makes this case different is that the FBI says they need Apple's help to gain access that has already been approved. So, it is a question of Apple's right to refuse, IMO to maintain a reputation for security. Protests by Apple that they're protecting users are bogus.

The more I think about it, the more I think Apple must comply with the law and help protect lives. That's more important than protecting their reputation.

 

[dan330]

Let's put some perspective on this... as I said in post #2, whether "the authorities" - cops, 3-letter government agencies, whoever - can be granted access to your phone has been answered dozens of times already. YES. That's a given. It's not a question of privacy anymore.

The only thing that makes this case different is that the FBI says they need Apple's help to gain access that has already been approved. So, it is a question of Apple's right to refuse, IMO to maintain a reputation for security. Protests by Apple that they're protecting users are bogus.

The more I think about it, the more I think Apple must comply with the law and help protect lives. That's more important than protecting their reputation.

yeah.. I see what you are getting at...
hmmm.... I agree.

but something is making me apprehensive. my lizard brain is worried about it.

 

[Unforgiven]

Seems everytime I read something the story is changed a bit. My understanding is the proposed solution by the feds would enable a back door to all devices even if it was only implemented for the single devices. That sounds like a slippery slope. The other part that has been completetly muddied by both sides is whether or not they have all of the information already via other sources.

 

[shalemail]

It simply must be a case by case, as needed, only under "XYZ" conditions. Otherwise, no. Simple as that. There has to be a solution that helps catch the bad guys and does not leave EVERYONE open to be ... "backdoored" pardon my ...French?

Anyway, very very very slippery slope to open all phones, that must simply be removed from the options.

 

[codesplice]

Anyway, very very very slippery slope to open all phones, that must simply be removed from the options.

The trick, I believe, is that the method proposed by the FBI would inherently work on every other Apple device. As I understand it, there's not a way to build the hacked software package in such a way that it could only be used on the device in this case. Once that door is open, it can't be closed.

Yes, there are things that Apple and/or the FBI could do to minimize the risk of the exploit (because that's exactly what it would be) getting into the wild, but it would still essentially be a master key for all of these devices - devices which, I'll add, were specifically designed so that there would/could not be such a master key. Encryption that can be broken or otherwise circumvented is flawed, period.

In fact, it sounds like the fact that Apple could even load their modified software on a locked device is vulnerability in and of itself. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a future version of iOS requires user interaction on the device to load new firmware. I doubt that would make decrypting a locked device truly impossible, but it would make it significantly harder in the future.

The scarier part of the story, to me at least, is the precedent that such action might set - both here and abroad. Apple has pointed out that no other country has asked it to break its encryption in this manner. Yet. Apple is a multinational company - if Apple complies with the FBI request to do the feds' dirty work for them, how will Apple respond when agencies of other countries come asking for the same?

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the coming weeks.

 

[Gmash]

Another interesting thing to consider- Apple has vowed to appeal this all the way to the Supreme Court if necessary. Seeing how the Court has a vacancy the republicans refuse to fill, if it does go that far and ends up a 4-4 tie, this will be even more of a hot potato.

 

[Unforgiven]

...the Court has a vacancy the republicans refuse to fill...

Lets keep this out of PCA. Both parties have agreed across multiple administrations that the public good is not served by vetting a Supreme Court Justice in an election year. Not an opinion, a fact.

 

[Gmash]

Lets keep this out of PCA. Both parties have agreed across multiple administrations that the public good is not served by vetting a Supreme Court Justice in an election year. Not an opinion, a fact.

Umm, no, that is not a fact. Reagan had his confirmed. But I'll leave it at that.

 

[AZgl1500]

well, the holy grail of security got popped earlier this week.

Linux Mint's website was hacked and a fake distro put up...

it only lasted a few hours until the 1st guy who actually checked the MD5 code noted it was wrong.
then they shut the whole website down, until all signs of the hacker were gone.

I just now checked, and it is alive and well again.

http://www.linuxmint.com/download.php

MicroSloth has never, ever, admitted to being hacked, or wrong, and when they are notified, it takes them months, some times a year to publish a fix.

the Linux Mint boys doubled down 'right now' and fixed it over night.

 

[shalemail]

Good article here from BGR.
https://bgr.com/2016/02/24/san-bernardino-iphone-apple-fbi-consequences/

And the more I think about it, the more this keeps coming back.
If we live life in such a way that we believe that we have to change our life, our world to cater to a very small percentage of people in the world, what do we end up with? What I mean is, if we make it possible for any and all data to be searched, just because a small percentage of people might do bad things, is that fair to the 95% of people that don't do anything wrong? It would be like not selling guns cause 2% of gun owners are bad. Or not allowing international travel cause 2% of travelers are kidnapped, murdered, what have you.

Is this a free society or is it a free society up to and until it's no longer easy? I mean, there ARE OTHER methods of tracking, intercepting and disseminating messages and data and plans and communications. Things they are already doing as part of the patriot act. Oh by the way, at the time, the Patriot act was pretty controversial. They have a lot of options written into that.

I honestly don't know anymore, by nature I want to protect the innocent, the weak the powerless, but does that have to be at the expense of everyone?

 

[Curtis1973]

They work Chinese people at $1.82 an hour at 60-69 hour work weeks to make their iPhones. Make them unlock the damn phone.