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Discussion in 'Politics and Current Affairs' started by burgertime, Apr 20, 2010.

  1. hakr100

    hakr100 Android Expert

    Considered "socialist" by who, exactly? This is a fascinating concept you are presenting here, that the public's schools, fire, police, libraries, military, et cetera, are "socialist" because they are "collectively" controlled by the public.

    To take your posit a step farther, both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution must be "socialist" documents because they are both under the control of the "collective" of the people.

    Right?
     



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  2. Zenze

    Zenze Well-Known Member

    Socialism encyclopedia topics | Reference.com

    Now maybe my interpretation of this is wrong, but this is my understanding. Taking the example of roads, they are a good/service that is provided and paid for by the government. If roads were controlled in a capitalist manner then private companies would build and pay for the roads, and we would pay them for building the roads in some way versus paying for them through taxes. Same for schools, NASA, military, fire/police, etc.
     
  3. hakr100

    hakr100 Android Expert

    Zenze, your own cite states:

    "socialism, general term for the political and economic theory that advocates a system of collective or government ownership and management of the means of production and distribution of goods"


    We don't have that or anything close to that. If we did, then BP would be owned by the United States government on a permanent basis.
     
  4. Zenze

    Zenze Well-Known Member

    Later on:
    "In a broader sense, the term socialism is often used loosely to describe economic theories ranging from those that hold that only certain public utilities and natural resources should be owned by the state to those holding that the state should assume responsibility for all economic planning and direction. In the past 150 years there have been innumerable differing socialist programs. For this reason socialism as a doctrine is ill defined, although its main purpose, the establishment of cooperation in place of competition remains fixed."

    No, we obviously don't have pure socialism, very far from it. However, we do not have pure capitalism either.

    My argument is that these programs are run in a socialist fashion as opposed to a capitalist fashion.
     
  5. 3devious

    3devious Android Expert

    I would agree with you, Zenze. The Department of Transportation would try to pretend this is not the case because they hire private contractors to do much of the construction, but the way those projects are run mirror a purely government effort in many ways.
     
  6. hakr100

    hakr100 Android Expert

    Thank goodness. Imagine if BP were not under tremendous pressure from the government to clean up its mess. If we had "pure capitalism" there were be a few very very rich people at the top, and the rest of the masses would be huddled in poverty.

    Wait...that's where we are headed now, with modestly regulated capitalism. :D
     
  7. TheBeardedMann

    TheBeardedMann Well-Known Member

    Then why do we have such fat poor people with cell phones and cable?
     
  8. Crude

    Crude Android Expert

    Cable and cell phones are a necessity. The government will help you with this as well as housing a car and food.
    Oh I bet no one believes me? Ok....
    https://www.safelinkwireless.com/EnrollmentPublic/home.aspx
     
  9. Say "Hello!" to the nanny state! Where you have a right to refuse to work and live off the taxpayer. Where you have a right to free or greatly reduced housing (Section 8). Where you have a right to free food while you do nothing. Where you have a right to a cell phone and cable TV - along with the free TV - while griping that you are abused by the system. Welcome to the nanny state!
     
  10. IOWA

    IOWA Mr. Logic Pants

    Since when is cable a necessity? Niether are cell phones for that matter :rolleyes: I guess everyone should be entitled to cars too.

    Tapatalk. Samsung Moment. Yep.
     
  11. DrScrubs

    DrScrubs Well-Known Member

    Wow, California is not on the list? Surprising.

    Oh, and the whole idea is ridiculous. I can understand food stamps to a degree, but cell phones? Aish...let's have government subsidized gym memberships too.
     
  12. 3devious

    3devious Android Expert

    I would be for that, but the people who need them still wouldn't use them.
    Hey! I don't have to go, I have a note! Yes, that actually is my mom's handwriting, no I didn't tell her that it was some crazy kind of bootcamp where I would have to run through alligator infested swamps why do you ask? OK, OK, I'll go, too. No, I DO NOT have my fingers crossed behind my back... really, I don't.
     
  13. hakr100

    hakr100 Android Expert


    I know a totally disabled vet whose monthly stipend is tiny, yet he has to live on it. Without ongoing help from some of his friends, he would have been dead long ago. He has a cell phone from a governmental agency that provides X number of minutes a month. I think it is 75. The cost to the agency is much less than a wired phone would be.

    Would you like his address so you can take his cell phone lifeline away from him?
     
  14. DrScrubs

    DrScrubs Well-Known Member

    Exceptions to every rule. As a rule, cell phone are not a necessity. (A rule I just came up with anyways.)

    Besides your story is specifically about a military vet. That man should be taken cared of through the VA. As such it has nothing to do with a public government subsidized program for everyone who is income qualified to get cell service. In other words, fix the VA system. Not add a new social service.
     
  15. hakr100

    hakr100 Android Expert

    There are millions of americans in dire straits because of the Bush recession, americans who have lost their jobs, their homes, their health insurance, and their pensions. It costs next to nothing to provide some of them with a limited minutes cell phone for emergency use, for prospective employers to call, et cetera.
     
  16. IOWA

    IOWA Mr. Logic Pants

    Bush recession? More like clinton reccession. He's responsible for the real estate bubble, and then burst, which in turn played a very heavy role in the recession.

    And IMO vets should always be taken care. They put their lives on the line and we owe it to them. But your average joe? Na... they can work for it, or do without. Some people need to realize cigs/steaks/beer aren't necessities.

    Tapatalk. Samsung Moment. Yep.
     
  17. hakr100

    hakr100 Android Expert

    Whatever the righties need to do to convince themselves...they do.

    Sorry, right wing political talking points just don't do it.
     
  18. Oilbama says that Bush put us in a hole, then he gets a shovel and starts digging. Now that's what I call a shovel ready project!

    [​IMG]
     
  19. TheBeardedMann

    TheBeardedMann Well-Known Member

    Bringing a vet into this is not the same as an average Joe. I would go as far as to say vets are exempt from federal taxes for 3 times as long as they served.
     
  20. IOWA

    IOWA Mr. Logic Pants

    I'm not on the left or the right. Read my sig. I just care about facts, not useless and baseless propoganda/rhetoric you've garbled all over this thread hakr

    Tapatalk. Samsung Moment. Yep.
     
  21. hakr100

    hakr100 Android Expert


    "I'm not on the left or the right."

    Now that is funny. :rolleyes:

    "I just care about facts..."

    Even funnier. Thanks for the chuckles. :D
     
  22. TheBeardedMann

    TheBeardedMann Well-Known Member

    "To the right of Rush and to the left of God."
    --Dr. Michael Savage
     
  23. DrScrubs

    DrScrubs Well-Known Member

    Come on. Republicans can't have it both ways. If Obama is responsible for what is happening on his own watch and can't blame Bush, then Republicans really can't blame Clinton for a recession that happened in 2008 when Bush took over in 2000. That's
    folks.

    The solution isn't to spend ourselves into a deeper hole creating more safety nets. The solution is getting the economy going again so jobs come back. A cell phone is not necessary for a potential employer to contact you. Land line phone companies give really low discounts already for low income families. Between $5 - $10.

    While these are all very creative, they are useless to help our nation. Kids in elementary school come up with names to call people they don't like. Adults create solutions.

    If Obama's policies are just so distasteful to you, what do you suggest gets done to fix things? How about this economy? Republicans love the "free market" principle. And I admit that there are positives to it. But it is not a flawless principle. In modern economics the free market has been exposed to outsourcing jobs, threats of monopolies, corporations playing games with people's money, golden parachutes, outlandish bonuses etc. Clearly socialism is not the answer. But neither is pure "free market" economics. What are your suggestions then?
     
  24. IOWA

    IOWA Mr. Logic Pants

    Its people like you that ruined our polictal system. Why does it have to be one or the other :rolleyes:

    When you mature a bit, let me know homeslice.

    Tapatalk. Samsung Moment. Yep.
     
  25. Zenze

    Zenze Well-Known Member

    Couldn't have said it better myself.
     
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