The Gun Law Discussion

[pbf98]

I would like to see those stats too ^^

My household would be in those stats, as a kid from ages 0 - 8 i didn't know how to access any of the firearms in the house, but after age 8 when my father taught me the proper safety I knew how to get to them, and how to use them, and knew the only time that I could take them out was when my father told me to do so. I never once went into my parents closet and into the safe to take out my single shot 20 gauge when I was young, because I was taught the difference between right and wrong and I understood the consequences of disobeying. As well as knowing the consequences that could occur if I were to take it out without his supervision.

These stories shouldn't make you look down at gun owners, but instead make you want to use stricter parenting to have better disciplined children that know their rights and wrongs. Chances are if the kid found that gun, he had been shown it before my his parents, when he was shown it his parents should have told him what can happen if he plays with it, and what the consequences can be

 

[JohnLaird]

A gun should never be in the reach of children that do not have the knowledge of gun safety, let alone a loaded gun.

Every gun is loaded until you eject the magazine, lock the action back and stick your finger in the chamber. When you put it back down it becomes loaded again. That was what I was taught when I was growing up...maybe it's just a gun culture thing. I don't understand how those parents could be so stupid.

 

[PrinceCorwin]

Arguing with these pro gun control folks is pointless. Every time we point out how ridiculous their current argument may be, they simply set that argument aside and pick up another one. That is because they don't actually whole heartedly support those arguments... they simply jump on board any of them that are anti gun without considering them. This proves that their minds are already made up. They will NEVER be swayed because their stance is not based on logic, reason, deduction, or even on the safety of the innocent (we've shown that by proving how many innocents HAVE died because their was no good person WITH a gun to protect them) It is based on fear.

They are afraid of guns for whatever personal reason they may have. And it is a natural human tendency to resent others that are not afraid of something that they fear. It makes them feel cowardly. Kind of like taking away winner's trophies in school athletics so no one is made to feel inferior.

I totally get that. I'm deathly afraid of guns. I have a supernatural tendency for clumsiness and accidents. I know for a fact that if I handle a firearm for any length of time, I or someone else will get hurt accidentally. So I don't own one. But I accept my fear because I understand that my fear is simply an innate safety precaution of my own sub-conscience to protect me and others from my abject proneness to clumsiness. I embrace that fear and do not resent others who are able to handle guns efficiently and responsibly.

But their minds are not open to reason. It is like trying to explain to someone who doesn't want to exercise why they should. They will give you every excuse they can think of but the baseline reason is that they are lazy (I'm guilty!). All the excuses are simply a smoke screen to keep the conversation from focusing on that.

My point is this: Don't argue with them about all these dumb little reasons (which continue to multiply and manifest themselves daily in different forms) for gun control. It is all just to keep people misdirected from the true reason they oppose the right to bear arms... fear and low self-esteem (both of which I have, but I face them and deal with them without spite and resentment of others).

Think of their arguments like those of a lawyer. A lawyer doesn't say things that he/she BELIEVES. They say things that will have a positive EFFECT on their agenda, either prosecution or defense, depending on who's paying them. You can't convince a defense attorney that their client is guilty because they really don't care. Their true agenda is not to help or protect anyone... it is to be a successful lawyer.

So be mindful that these gun control "discussions" are a waste of time. Their true agenda does not get voiced in these debates. They seek to take away the guns because they are afraid. Period

BTW: the above statement about fear does not apply to politicians who are pro gun control. Their agenda is based on control and power (which, I guess is a form of fear). They simply present arguments for the fear filled commoners to latch onto.

Sorry for the rant... just can't take the rhetoric anymore. I mean to offend no one... intrigue but not offend.

 

[ItnStln511]

Arguing with these pro gun control folks is pointless. Every time we point out how ridiculous their current argument may be, they simply set that argument aside and pick up another one. That is because they don't actually whole heartedly support those arguments... they simply jump on board any of them that are anti gun without considering them. This proves that their minds are already made up. They will NEVER be swayed because their stance is not based on logic, reason, deduction, or even on the safety of the innocent (we've shown that by proving how many innocents HAVE died because their was no good person WITH a gun to protect them) It is based on fear.

They are afraid of guns for whatever personal reason they may have. And it is a natural human tendency to resent others that are not afraid of something that they fear. It makes them feel cowardly. Kind of like taking away winner's trophies in school athletics so no one is made to feel inferior.

I totally get that. I'm deathly afraid of guns. I have a supernatural tendency for clumsiness and accidents. I know for a fact that if I handle a firearm for any length of time, I or someone else will get hurt accidentally. So I don't own one. But I accept my fear because I understand that my fear is simply an innate safety precaution of my own sub-conscience to protect me and others from my abject proneness to clumsiness. I embrace that fear and do not resent others who are able to handle guns efficiently and responsibly.

But their minds are not open to reason. It is like trying to explain to someone who doesn't want to exercise why they should. They will give you every excuse they can think of but the baseline reason is that they are lazy (I'm guilty!). All the excuses are simply a smoke screen to keep the conversation from focusing on that.

My point is this: Don't argue with them about all these dumb little reasons (which continue to multiply and manifest themselves daily in different forms) for gun control. It is all just to keep people misdirected from the true reason they oppose the right to bear arms... fear and low self-esteem (both of which I have, but I face them and deal with them without spite and resentment of others).

Think of their arguments like those of a lawyer. A lawyer doesn't say things that he/she BELIEVES. They say things that will have a positive EFFECT on their agenda, either prosecution or defense, depending on who's paying them. You can't convince a defense attorney that their client is guilty because they really don't care. Their true agenda is not to help or protect anyone... it is to be a successful lawyer.

So be mindful that these gun control "discussions" are a waste of time. Their true agenda does not get voiced in these debates. They seek to take away the guns because they are afraid. Period

BTW: the above statement about fear does not apply to politicians who are pro gun control. Their agenda is based on control and power (which, I guess is a form of fear). They simply present arguments for the fear filled commoners to latch onto.

Sorry for the rant... just can't take the rhetoric anymore. I mean to offend no one... intrigue but not offend.

Great post! While you say you won't own a gun, I read that you are not arguing to disarm everyone. Is this correct? And yes, trying to have a sensible conversation with anti-gun people is pretty much impossible!

 

[ItnStln511]

I would like to see those stats too ^^

My household would be in those stats, as a kid from ages 0 - 8 i didn't know how to access any of the firearms in the house, but after age 8 when my father taught me the proper safety I knew how to get to them, and how to use them, and knew the only time that I could take them out was when my father told me to do so. I never once went into my parents closet and into the safe to take out my single shot 20 gauge when I was young, because I was taught the difference between right and wrong and I understood the consequences of disobeying. As well as knowing the consequences that could occur if I were to take it out without his supervision.

These stories shouldn't make you look down at gun owners, but instead make you want to use stricter parenting to have better disciplined children that know their rights and wrongs. Chances are if the kid found that gun, he had been shown it before my his parents, when he was shown it his parents should have told him what can happen if he plays with it, and what the consequences can be

I'm still waiting on them to post the statistics!

 

[JohnLaird]

I totally get that. I'm deathly afraid of guns. I have a supernatural tendency for clumsiness and accidents. I know for a fact that if I handle a firearm for any length of time, I or someone else will get hurt accidentally. So I don't own one. But I accept my fear because I understand that my fear is simply an innate safety precaution of my own sub-conscience to protect me and others from my abject proneness to clumsiness. I embrace that fear and do not resent others who are able to handle guns efficiently and responsibly.

I can respect that. I'm deathly afraid of heights even when it is relatively safe.

I see you are from League City, TX...if by that you mean just south of Houston and the Clear Lake area -and- you change your mind about firearms some day, let me know and send me a PM. Shooting can be about as safe (or more so) than crossing the street IF you follow the rules (even for a clutz). There is also an excellent, safe, indoor gun range called Arms Room that is very close to you. The staff is very good and offers training (every single employee there carries a gun in the store if that tells you anything).

 

[sntaylor]

BBC News - Working gun made with 3D printer

 

[pbf98]

I believe I saw something on that a few months ago, and just so happens that the gun falls apart after like 3 shots or something like that..

It isn't entirely hard to make a gun out of things you can find at a hardware store, just need a cylindrical tube that will hold a bullet, then something to use as a firing pin, then something to hold firing pin and release with enough force to set off the primer, and bam you have a gun, cheaper than buying a 3D printer.

I think to be able to see what we see (as pro gunners) you have to be subjected to all the scrutiny as us. We are just here minding our own business and then someone who doesn't like guns wants to take them away. Now I know its not going to happen just like that, but put it in a perspective you can relate to, you're using something as you're supposed to, and then someone that dislikes whatever said object is says that you can no longer use it or have it because they want nothing to do with it. If you don't like guns, don't get one. I am not harming anyone having my guns, so why are you wanting to take away my right to buy guns, I am not the one that went out and killed 20 children, neither is anyone on this forum that owns a gun. If you want to ban guns, you better want to ban pressure cookers, box cutters, and the other misc items used by insane people that do bad things.
Point is, the people that want to cause harm will cause harm no matter what they have to use to do it.

 

[Bob Maxey]

I believe I saw something on that a few months ago, and just so happens that the gun falls apart after like 3 shots or something like that..

It isn't entirely hard to make a gun out of things you can find at a hardware store, just need a cylindrical tube that will hold a bullet, then something to use as a firing pin, then something to hold firing pin and release with enough force to set off the primer, and bam you have a gun, cheaper than buying a 3D printer.

Yup, we called them Zip Guns. They are improvised from things you have lying around the house or prison cell. They have been around since the good old days.

 

[Bob Maxey]

BBC News - Working gun made with 3D printer

Something that I really never considered is this: (from the link)

"Donna Sellers, from the ATF, told BBC News that the 3D-printed gun, as long as it was not a National Firearms Act weapon (an automatic gun, for example), was legal in the US."

"She said: "[In the US] a person can manufacture a firearm for their own use. However, if they engage in the business of manufacture to sell a gun, they need a licence."

So what if we can print guns? Apparently, the ATF does not have an issue.

Except in Texas, apparently:

"Possession of a zip gun is a 3rd degree felony under the Texas Penal code 46.05. As such the penalty is imprisonment of 2-10 years and/or a fine not to exceed $10,000"

I'll leave printed guns to the experts and visit Gallensons just to be safe. My guess is there could be trouble or perhaps the numbers of printed guns will be minor and it is a bunch of worry over nuttin after all.

 

[chrlswltrs]

Something that I really never considered is this: (from the link)

"Donna Sellers, from the ATF, told BBC News that the 3D-printed gun, as long as it was not a National Firearms Act weapon (an automatic gun, for example), was legal in the US."

"She said: "[In the US] a person can manufacture a firearm for their own use. However, if they engage in the business of manufacture to sell a gun, they need a licence."

So what if we can print guns? Apparently, the ATF does not have an issue.

Except in Texas, apparently:

"Possession of a zip gun is a 3rd degree felony under the Texas Penal code 46.05. As such the penalty is imprisonment of 2-10 years and/or a fine not to exceed $10,000"

I'll leave printed guns to the experts and visit Gallensons just to be safe. My guess is there could be trouble or perhaps the numbers of printed guns will be minor and it is a bunch of worry over nuttin after all.

But what is classified as a "zip gun" under the law that is a felony to own? I'm assuming the ZiP gun (I really want one of these because it looks like soooo much fun to shoot) isn't?

And yes, under federal law anyone can make their own firearm, as long as they only keep it for themselves. Machining an AR15 lower (the part that has the serial number and is the part that requires a background check) from a block of steel is relatively popular. Any machine shop will make a 80% one (you have to drill a couple holes and cut out the mag well to finish it to keep it legal as far as making it yourself). Then you just have to add the upper and BCG.

 

[PrinceCorwin]

Great post! While you say you won't own a gun, I read that you are not arguing to disarm everyone. Is this correct? And yes, trying to have a sensible conversation with anti-gun people is pretty much impossible!

Yes, that is true... I won't own a gun but I want to disarm no one. An armed public is a free public

 

[PrinceCorwin]

I can respect that. I'm deathly afraid of heights even when it is relatively safe.

I see you are from League City, TX...if by that you mean just south of Houston and the Clear Lake area -and- you change your mind about firearms some day, let me know and send me a PM. Shooting can be about as safe (or more so) than crossing the street IF you follow the rules (even for a clutz). There is also an excellent, safe, indoor gun range called Arms Room that is very close to you. The staff is very good and offers training (every single employee there carries a gun in the store if that tells you anything).

Arms Room... been there... very nice. I shoot at a range with friends occasionally but I won't own a gun. I'm serious when i say that I'm supernaturally prone to accidents. lol

So, are you from around here?

 

[ItnStln511]

I believe I saw something on that a few months ago, and just so happens that the gun falls apart after like 3 shots or something like that..

It isn't entirely hard to make a gun out of things you can find at a hardware store, just need a cylindrical tube that will hold a bullet, then something to use as a firing pin, then something to hold firing pin and release with enough force to set off the primer, and bam you have a gun, cheaper than buying a 3D printer.

I think to be able to see what we see (as pro gunners) you have to be subjected to all the scrutiny as us. We are just here minding our own business and then someone who doesn't like guns wants to take them away. Now I know its not going to happen just like that, but put it in a perspective you can relate to, you're using something as you're supposed to, and then someone that dislikes whatever said object is says that you can no longer use it or have it because they want nothing to do with it. If you don't like guns, don't get one. I am not harming anyone having my guns, so why are you wanting to take away my right to buy guns, I am not the one that went out and killed 20 children, neither is anyone on this forum that owns a gun. If you want to ban guns, you better want to ban pressure cookers, box cutters, and the other misc items used by insane people that do bad things.
Point is, the people that want to cause harm will cause harm no matter what they have to use to do it.

Don't forget cars. They kill more people than guns.

 

[ItnStln511]

Yes, that is true... I won't own a gun but I want to disarm no one. An armed public is a free public

Thank you, and I can respect your opinion.

 

[mebrewsta]

I am always confused as to why these gun control nuts are all about removing firearms from the hands of law-abiding citizens, but say next to nothing about the state of mental healthcare in this country.

What do they expect with no sufficient healthcare for the mentally infirm? And having only the criminals in the country in possession of guns?

We'll become (if we are not already) a country oppressed by criminals and arms-wielding crazy people with nothing to lose. I mean seriously, what will our nation devolve into if we continue to allow the government to slowly step around and pick away at one of the most important provisions in our constitution?

 

[ElasticNinja]

I am always confused as to why these gun control nuts are all about removing firearms from the hands of law-abiding citizens, but say next to nothing about the state of mental healthcare in this country.

Well you know, healthcare reform (as with seemingly all reform), isn't palatable in the US. The government has no real direct role in healthcare (apart from paying), not much can be done as is.

What do they expect with no sufficient healthcare for the mentally infirm? And having only the criminals in the country in possession of guns?

Indeed, the root issues usually are with regards to poverty, mental health etc. Again, there is no will to address this. Can't give the poor money, might make them work less than 50 hours a week.

I
We'll become (if we are not already) a country oppressed by criminals and arms-wielding crazy people with nothing to lose.

In all fairness parts of the US are like that anyway.

I mean seriously, what will our nation devolve into if we continue to allow the government to slowly step around and pick away at one of the most important provisions in our constitution?

Well you know, constitutions can be changed. I don't see why the provision is that important anyway. The US could do with a new constitution in my opinion (as could a lot of governments), but sure what can one do?

 

[JohnLaird]

Well you know, healthcare reform (as with seemingly all reform), isn't palatable in the US. The government has no real direct role in healthcare (apart from paying), not much can be done as is.

Indeed, the root issues usually are with regards to poverty, mental health etc. Again, there is no will to address this. Can't give the poor money, might make them work less than 50 hours a week.

In all fairness parts of the US are like that anyway.

1. I think a lot of people do want reform...it's just that nobody can agree on how to implement it and what part of the taxpayer demographic gets to pay for it.
2. Solving root problems costs money. Again...someone has to pay for it and that is where it breaks down. Hard to do when congress can't even prevent sweeping automatic spending cuts (I'm referring to the "sequester"). I think another root problem that most people overlook is that there is no "gun culture" in New England and the northern US (or if there is one, it is small compared to the south). There is no training required for owning a firearm. It's a lot like purchasing a boat...there isn't any required training for it. Dangerous as hell though for someone who is careless, ignorant or stupid. I think if the current president could work with (instead of against) the NRA and help people get proper training some of the problems would go away or be mitigated (i.e. five year old shoots friend or family member because the irresponsible, untrained mother/father was careless and did not know that all firearms are loaded whether you *think* it is or not).
3. The media reports what they believe will be popular news...sadly negative events (i.e. mass shootings and accidents) are of more interest than positive ones. Don't assume that what is on the news is the whole picture. It isn't anymore.

 

[ItnStln511]

I am always confused as to why these gun control nuts are all about removing firearms from the hands of law-abiding citizens, but say next to nothing about the state of mental healthcare in this country.

Precisely!

 

[chrlswltrs]

Guess this pokes a hole in all the ignorant gun grabber's stories, and this article is from one of the most liberal newspapers in the country: Gun crime has plunged, but Americans think it's up, says study - latimes.com

Facts are facts, more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens means less crime. Less guns is job security for violent criminals.

 

[ItnStln511]

Guess this pokes a hole in all the ignorant gun grabber's stories, and this article is from one of the most liberal newspapers in the country: Gun crime has plunged, but Americans think it's up, says study - latimes.com

Facts are facts, more guns in the hands of law abiding citizens means less crime. Less guns is job security for violent criminals.

That's pretty impressive, coming from a liberal newspaper. I'm sure someone from the left will try and claim that the above mentioned fact isn't true.

 

[chrlswltrs]

That's pretty impressive, coming from a liberal newspaper. I'm sure someone from the left will try and claim that the above mentioned fact isn't true.

The LA Times is the left. Other than NBC you can't go much farther left. The fact is, the evidence is becoming so blatantly obvious that anyone who keeps denying it will be laughed into oblivion... just look at what is happening with even democrats saying Benghazi needs investigation instead of continuing to protect Obama/Hillary.

We are at a tipping point in this country and frankly in this world. The next year or so will determine if there is a global collapse and riots/wars everywhere or a move toward freedom and responsibility.

 

[ItnStln511]

The LA Times is the left. Other than NBC you can't go much farther left. The fact is, the evidence is becoming so blatantly obvious that anyone who keeps denying it will be laughed into oblivion... just look at what is happening with even democrats saying Benghazi needs investigation instead of continuing to protect Obama/Hillary.

We are at a tipping point in this country and frankly in this world. The next year or so will determine if there is a global collapse and riots/wars everywhere or a move toward freedom and responsibility.

I agree with you. However I also think that some on the left will, sadly, not be able to understand the facts. You're right about a possible global collapse. My last semester in college I had a professor say that he believes that there will be another Civil War in America within the next ten to fifteen years. And that was two years ago!

 

[pbf98]

I agree with you. However I also think that some on the left will, sadly, not be able to understand the facts. You're right about a possible global collapse. My last semester in college I had a professor say that he believes that there will be another Civil War in America within the next ten to fifteen years. And that was two years ago!

Is it gonna be pro-gunners vs anti-gunners?? That would be a sight

 

[ElasticNinja]

The LA Times is the left. Other than NBC you can't go much farther left.

As someone who reads European opinion pieces I must laugh. 'Left' is very much subjective, but the LA Times, leftist? Show me the articles calling for nationalisation, tripling welfare, etc.

We are at a tipping point in this country and frankly in this world. The next year or so will determine if there is a global collapse and riots/wars everywhere or a move toward freedom and responsibility.

Yes the Stormfront and Far left/right set say this every year. Europe is much closer to 'civil war' than the US, but it's not like it'll happen.