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Update: 2.1 OS upgrade for Rogers HTC Magic+

Discussion in 'Rogers' started by RogersMary, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. sconnelly

    sconnelly Well-Known Member

    BTW, How many on this site have bothered to look at the Android OS updates specifications page?

    URL: Android 2.2 Platform | Android Developers

    I certainly cannot speak for all of you but OS 2.1 is not going to solve many of the inherent problems with Android. On the other hand OS 2.2 does solve some major issues.

    For instance, besides the finally fixing the BT hands free failure, Android OS 2.2 also finally solves the problem with loading apps on the SD card!

    But NO HTC Magic owner is ever going to see these fixes in an official release! Why? Because Android OS 2.1 IS THE LAST UPDATE you will ever see.

    Now, there is absolutely no technical reason why the Magic cannot be updated beyond OS 2.1. This is simply an economic decision on HTC's part and/or Rogers' part.

    Again, the fact that Google allows the hardware vendor to customize and/or essentially control which OS is installed on their phone is the primary reason for this OS fragmentation FAILURE across the board and affecting all carriers and eventually all phones!

    That said, you should all be directing, at least 70% of your anger towards Google! Pressure them to take control of OS updates! Why? Because it ain't gonna end with any HTC phone, or ANY carrier, and in any country.

    The next time you believe you have been victimized by Rogers, all you need to do is look at the SAME complaints in any country, any carrier, any phone. Yes, some phone have OS 2.1 but it is ONLY SOME PHONES!
     

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  2. sconnelly

    sconnelly Well-Known Member

    BTW, coincidentally, I just did a app update with the super excellent aTrackDog and I am noticing, so far, five apps that are taking advantage of the OS 2.2 - save to SD feature.

    One on my screen now is the latest version of Google Sky Map, version 1.5.2.

    As I previously stated, this is unfortunately a feature that no Magic owner will be able to take advantage of (if using the official Rogers' release).
     
  3. MagicAndroid

    MagicAndroid Newbie

    That's why I dumped the GT series and went to Forza.:p

    No seriously, the least the could do is say we don't know, we are doing our best, sorry no ETA but it's on it's way. Easier than it'll be spring, no mid year, no before the end of august, no.......

    To me a sign of professionalism is meeting deadlines. It's better to set ones that are to much than to little.
     
  4. sconnelly

    sconnelly Well-Known Member

    No offense intended, but I suspect you do not work in software or hardware manufacturing.

    Ideally, deadlines are met but in reality deadlines are never actually met.

    It has nothing at all to do with lack of professionalism. Rather, there are many stakeholders involved in any software/hardware process (developers, testers, management, etc.). For instance, if a bug is found, there is a review process; it is not a simple matter of the tester telling the program to "fix it". When a review determines that the 'fix' is important enough, it is given a priority and developers work on it accordingly. Once the fix is inserted into back into the software trunk/branch, the cycle repeats itself; and I am simplifying the process! Additionally, there are many other unanticipated delays.

    That ends your intro to software/hardware development cycles 101. :p

    But as far as telling consumers specific dates, that is pure marketing. Rogers' best bet is not to give dates, HOWEVER, there are many people in this group who DEMAND dates. Marketing is simply trying to appease the loudest ones with guesstimates that are released by management.
     
  5. Silvertag

    Silvertag Well-Known Member

    We won't see it from Rogers that's for sure but Vodafone UK is currently working with HTC to provide a official Magic & N1 version of 2.2 and is due this summer (summer ends in mid September).
     
  6. sconnelly

    sconnelly Well-Known Member

    Well, that clearly illustrates what I have been saying all along.

    #1. Android OS 2.2 is already available. Why doesn't EVERY, hardware capable, Android phone immediately have access to this update (like the iPhone)?

    Answer: Google leaves updates in the hands of each manufacturer so that they can customize the OS to work with their dissimilar hardware. This results in delays and additional costs to the carriers who request the updates.

    #2. Vodafone = $72 billion in revenue and 347 million subscribers
    Rogers Wireless = $4 billion in revenue and about 6 million subscribers

    It seems to me that the more money/subscribers a carrier has, the more likely they will be able to buy the upgrade from the cell phone manufacturer.

    I hate repeating myself BUT it all updates were controlled by and delivered from Google, this entire thread, and a few websites dedicated to this issue would be moot.
     
  7. j12n

    j12n Lurker

    My biggest problem with Rogers is that they make you sign a 3 year contract then provide 1 OS update. This is unacceptable.

    I've waited 12 long months for on OS upgrade, but have decided to root my phone and update it myself.

    Rogers has failed.
     
  8. sconnelly

    sconnelly Well-Known Member

    Name a cell phone provider that doesn't do that with the same product. Betcha can't!

    If no other Canadian carrier (or ANY U.S. carriers) have released a HTC Magic with anything beyond OS 1.6... just how is this Rogers' fault?

    IN FACT, you should all be thanking Rogers for likely being the first carrier to offer OS 2.1 for the Magic. Geezz... :thinking: :mad:

    Like I keep saying, the PROBLEM is really with Google for placing the responsibility of updates in the hands of the hardware manufacturers!

    Some of you are still not listening!

    P.S. On the bright-side, you can always wait for the various hacker groups to modify the the OS to work on the Magic.... unfortunately, no guarantee everything (i.e. camera) will function correctly.
     
  9. sconnelly

    sconnelly Well-Known Member

    OMG! Why do some of you persist in spreading false rumours?

    I just spoke with a colleague (who is in the know about Vodaphone) and there are NO PLANS to release OS 2.2 for Vodaphone. In fact, the current plan is on releasing OS 2.1 b/c . Currently Vodaphone Magic owners only have OS 1.6!

    As I stated in a previous message, Rogers will likely be the first to offer OS 2.x for the Magic.

    Why not OS 2.2? Because HTC only just completed the OS 2.1 update. There are no plans (that I am aware of) to do any further updates for the Magic! If you want OS 2.2 (or newer), then either install the next Magic hack or purchase an HTC Desire, or another Android phone. But the problem with updates will NEVER end with any phone, as long as Google continues this way.

    Some of you need to realize that HTC is in ultimate control of whether an update is offered.
     
  10. bunhead

    bunhead Member

    Yes rogers is a smaller company

    On the simple math of revenue vs subscribers I see rogers having just over 3 times the revenue per subscriber. I know that this is not what this thread is about but that is just frigging criminal!

    I am just saying....carry on.
     
  11. drifter136

    drifter136 Newbie

    Your understanding of simple math is trumped by basic economics. A smaller company NEEDS to make more money per sale than a larger company operating in the same industry. These stats don't specify net or gross revenue, but eyeballing the numbers indicates pretty clearly these a gross numbers before any costs are taken into consideration. I'd venture a guess that vodaphone's cost of operation is not proportionally higher than that of Rogers.
     
  12. sconnelly

    sconnelly Well-Known Member

    Also keep in mind that my numbers are just a guess! I pulled them out of my well.. never mind.

    I think it is a well know rumour (or fact) that due to the Canada's very low population density, telecomm providers actually make far less money compared to other countries.

    This conversation is just stupid. It is just as dumb as when some people cannot understand why cell phone usage is more expensive in Canada, compared to the U.S. Uh... duh! 300 million potential subscribers vs 30 million!

    Again... I am providing BS numbers! I am only illustrating a point!

    Like drifter136 stated, basic economics!

    Still, even after proving that Rogers is relatively small, compared to others... Rogers is still working at bringing you OS 2.x before, or at the same time, as other providers.

    Please people, don't believe me OR anyone else... check the facts for yourself.
     
  13. j12n

    j12n Lurker

    From what I know the US carriers have two year contracts. This is better by a third.


    Why can Cyanogen crank out updates continually while Roger+HTC take 6+ months? Maybe Rogers should hire Cyanogen to build their ROMs!

    The point you're missing is that we've crossed a Rubicon. My Android phone is not a "feature phone", it's a very sophisticated and compact computer. Would I allow Roger, Telus, etc. to dictate what OS and version I run on my laptop or desktop computer... No.

    I agree, I'd rather have Google managing my device updates. But I currently don't shell out $80 a month to Google. So Rogers can play the victim, but the buck stops at them.
     
  14. sconnelly

    sconnelly Well-Known Member

    Again, e c o n o m i c s !

    Canadian carriers determined that 3 years is optimal time for an acceptable ROI.
    Besides, there ARE 2 year contracts available, if you are willing to pay more for a phone.

    Must I answer this?

    The carriers CAN NOT AND DO NOT do the coding! HTC (et al) owns copyright on all their phone's specialized proprietary functions (i.e. the camera, etc.).

    I hope you can understand this key point.

    BTW, the Cyanogen mods often will not work with every feature on a particular phone, at least not immediately! Why, because someone (a hard core hacker) must reverse engineer all the proprietary phone code (or drivers). Such hacks are hardly acceptable by ANY carrier.

    Seriously..... :thinking:
     
  15. Silvertag

    Silvertag Well-Known Member


    http://www.vodafone.com/start/media_relations/news/group_press_releases/2009/vodafone_and_htc_unveil.html


    Vodafone or SFR France if you prefer (still the same) will get 2.2 it's no rumour. They announced it officially. I've rechecked SFR website and they updated a few notes since everybody was asking for updates.



    HTC is not providing the update. ok i said it.. now sue me it was not there when the announcement was made in all the way back june :rolleyes:..

    IT WILL COME FROM GOOGLE­.

    Either way it won't change a thing to what i said. Vodafone (SFR) HTC Magic will see 2.2. and so is their Nexus One

    (SFR is frenchy only no trans.)
    Froyo, la nouvelle version d'Android | Atelier SFR

    Here's a rough translate from Google.
     
  16. sconnelly

    sconnelly Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately, your statement clearly indicates that you are failing to understand how this should work.

    Questions:

    Do iPhone owners pay Apple for their OS updates?

    a) Yes
    b) No, they pay their carrier for only the wireless service. Apple provides OS updates for free, as part of the products natural product life.

    Correct answer b)

    Google is the villain here. In order to market penetration, and as a result, maximize their profits, they opened up Android to ANY and EVERY manufacturer to build phones built on their Android technology, and WITHOUT restrictions.

    Google believes they have absolutely no stake in whether or not a customer is able to get the latest OS update. Google only cares about maximizing the number of physical phones in use.

    Why? Because Google is using you, your phone, and your usage on that phone to make even more money by collecting usage data, etc. Did you know that?

    Just go ahead and ask them for yourself. Google's answer is for you to contact the hardware manufacturer of your phone. In turn, the hardware manufacturer will falsely blame your carrier for not requesting it.

    Why? Because there is no perceived vested interest in a hardware manufacturer to prolong the life time of a cell phone past the typical 6 month business model. If they are going to prolong a phone's life, they want to be paid to update an OS. As an example, HTC is making a lot of money, as a result of the Magic OS update.
     
  17. j12n

    j12n Lurker

    Canadian consumers pay some of the highest cell rates in the world. Rogers revenue per subscriber is off the charts... So no, I don't shed a tear for them.


    Really? Wow, ok you missed my sarcasm. My point was that a few "hackers" in their "spare time" can do what Rogers (21.28B Mkt cap) and HTC (478.33B Mkt cap) can't or won't do.

    The truth is the current model is broken. The carriers want to control everything but this isn't economical in todays world. Rogers shouldn't be in the cellphone business, they should be in the cellular network business. What hardware I use to connect to their network shouldn't be their concern.
     
  18. sconnelly

    sconnelly Well-Known Member

    You are misunderstanding. It is impossible for an Android OS to simply plug into any Android phone. As I said many times, there are proprietary features on each phone that the hardware manufacturer must integrate into their phones.

    So... the process is:

    Google RTM's OS
    Manufacturer integrates OS update with their custom code
    Manufacturer customizes phone for carrier
    Manufacturer releases phone to carrier for testing


    Thanks....
    I will send this link to my colleague, he had only considered Vodaphone UK. I will ask him to look into this unexpected development from HTC.
     
  19. sconnelly

    sconnelly Well-Known Member

    Please tell me which country, with a similar or lower population density, pay less than Canada's rates. What your are not doing is doing your own research.

    Really? I fail to see how this is relevant.

    I don't really mean to appear MEAN! But do I really need to explain AGAIN, why a major carrier cannot use a hackers phone mods??? :thinking: :thinking:

    Apple was able to maintain control of their phone and OS.

    They don't care! You are welcome to use your own hardware on most (or any?) Canadian network. Of course, your hardware needs to be compatible with one of the two primary signal types.
     
  20. Brewmasterii

    Brewmasterii Lurker

    Wow. I just logged in to see if the update was out yet and it feels like I stumbled upon a grade 6 brawl in the schoolyard.

    Anyway - Update not ready yet?
    No?
    OK, I'll check back in a week.

    Cheers everyone,

    Brewmaster.
     
  21. j12n

    j12n Lurker

    I was using your statistics:
    Vodafone = $72 billion in revenue and 347 million subscribers
    Rogers Wireless = $4 billion in revenue and about 6 million subscribers

    Some simple math shows:
    Vodafone makes $207 in revenue per subscriber
    Rogers Wireless makes $666 in revenue per subscriber

    Thats over 3X more revenue per subscriber. Not too shabby. If I wanted to start my own cellular company guess where I'd rather setup shop?

    Ok, I don't think you'll be able to comprehend this point so lets move on.


    True, but Google is not Apple. Google started the Open Handset Alliance to provide an open and collaborative OS for mobile phones. This is why Android will be the big winner in the end. Apple is a hardware company, so a better comparison is to Motorola or HTC. It would be in their best interest to provide the updates for their hardware.


    Not true. Why lock down the devices with codes? Why charge extra to tether my phone to my laptop? After all, I am paying for the data plan - don't they want me to use more data? And why are they trying to block Android users from rooting their phones?
     
  22. sconnelly

    sconnelly Well-Known Member

    Okay, I am done with the rest of this conversation. But I will answer the following questions for you.

    Because the carrier (all carriers do this) want to ensure that you are 'locked' with them. When you purchase your $50 Android phone, you do not actually own it until you completed your contract obligations. Locking the phone is one way they ensure this because they cannot always guarantee that you won't skip out on your contract. All (or most phones) are locked because it makes for simpler inventory.

    Actually, Rogers no longer charges for tethering. But why was it in place (and still is for some other carriers)? Because of limited bandwidth. The carriers simply do not have the infrastructure in place to support everyone using up their bandwidth limits. They rightly count out about - no greater than - 15% of their customers using all their bandwidth. I don't actually know the specific numbers but it is typically around such a value.

    Sorry for the basic answer but it is really simple. It is their network and so they can do as they please. You are only leasing access to it, so you must play by their rules.

    I think you are failing to understand just what 'rights' you get for your $80 a month.... basically, your rights are limited to the carriers SLA (Service Level Agreement). Please read it, if you have a few hours and a lawyer to interpreted for you. :)

    Gosh, I am surprised you didn't ask about the carriers filtering the internet (blocking ports, URLs, p2p, etc.).. again because they can and because of bandwidth.

    Bottom line, the carriers are all similar, everywhere, and in any country. Even those new Canadian carriers are similar (although they pretend to be vastly different). This is not to be misconstrued with they are all evil, but rather, they are all businesses, and they are in business to provide a service and in turn, make a profit. Nothing wrong with that.
     
  23. mjschmidt

    mjschmidt Android Expert

    Can we please get this thread back to discussion of the update itself, and specifically as a place for Mary to release info about the update, and for users to ask her questions about it?

    The secondary debate being had is certainly a valid one, which would probably be better served in a separate thread? (I'd even be happy to participate. ;-) )
     
  24. j12n

    j12n Lurker

    sconnelly, thanks for the debate. Unfortunately you defeated yourself with your own argument:

    - The carriers "don't care!" what hardware you use / "It is their network... you must play by their rules."


    So this brings me back to my main issue, the 3 year contract. What phone will last you 3 years? Maybe an iphone, only because Apple cares about you. My HTC Magic is 1 year old and already a relic. After the 2.1 update it'll be good for another 6 months tops before it's as useful as a toaster.

    Rogers is a very profitable business, and good for them - I'm glad. But the customer service simply is crap.
     
  25. MagicAndroid

    MagicAndroid Newbie

    I'm starting a new thread on this, I'd like in on the debate. Nothing beats a good, friendly, clean debate.

    Go HERE
     
    Akkuzo and mjschmidt like this.
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