Why did HTC put a 16bit 65K color LCD on this device? Droid X has 18bit 24 million. Both phones $199

[EarlyMon]

I do think/hope that it is possible to do 24 bit color on the display with a software update. I really doubt the 16 bit limitation is in the hardware. In fact, seems like it'd be more difficult to make a display with only 5 bits per color channel as it's usually easier to work at the byte (8 bit) level than it is to "lop off" three bits from each channel. That just leads me to believe that the display is probably working at the 8 bit/channel level but the software that drives it is only running 5 of those.

Yep. An LCD display controller simply provides power to change each LCD subpixel element (think: aperture) to a pre-defined state. Given the nature of those chips in the supply chain, I agree - it seems it would be much more difficult to take that step backwards in hardware.

One example catalog page shows a single WVGA mobile LCD display controller being controllable as 16 or 24 bit - its product brief goes into a little more details (warning - it's a sales pitch).

Analog and Peripheral ICs - Toshiba America Electronic Components, Inc.

http://www.toshiba.com/taec/components/docs/ProdBrief/06I08_HSIOsolutns_ProdBrief.pdf

I _saw_ smooth color gradients, even if I couldn't reproduce it without 16-bit banding thereafter - I _saw_ it.

So - yeah, software. I won't even begin to guess why.

 

[EarlyMon]

Try putting this PNG (in the attached ZIP) in the same folder as your photos. It acts strangely. Sometimes it'll be banded badly but if you see the banding, pinch/zoom IN and then pinch/zoom OUT all the way (smaller than the screen) and let it pop back up to screen size. When you do that, it'll pop back to fill the screen and there will be no banding at all. It looks even smoother than it does on my 24 bit monitor. Then as soon as you touch it again to even flip back one photo and then come back to this one, it's banded again. At that point you can pinch/zoom in and then back out and no banding again. Weird: the display seems to be able to do 24 bit color but the gallery app looks like sometimes it displays 24 bit color and sometimes 16 bit.

Yeap. Totally weird. That said - there is a mobile technology for display controllers that takes a low data input - like, 16 bits, and performs various color dithering techniques to give the appearance of much higher-bit color schemes.

We may simply be hitting that sweet spot with whatever control signals result from our finger music.

Or, HTC has a bug preventing that feature from being deployed for all frames.

And just made me wonder - I wonder how many mobile displays out there that we're all convinced are 24-bit color aren't really faster, more compact, 16-bit architectures without an HTC bug such that no one really notices that that's what is really taking place - end-point color interpolation to mimic 24-bit color.

Hmmmmm.

 

[mrspeedmaster]

http://androidforums.com/htc-evo-4g...24-million-both-phones-199-a.html#post1016663

FWIW, the Droid X has a 24 bit display, which is 16.7 million colors.

Droid X has 24bit display but their software PhotoGallery app only shows 16 bit (65,000 colors)
See this chart:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2365918,00.asp

 

[Deleted User]

Droid X has 24bit display but their software PhotoGallery app only shows 16 bit (65,000 colors)
See this chart:
Is The iPhone 4's LCD the Best? - Color Depth | PCMag.com

That's a bug in the PhotoGallery that comes with stock Android 2.1, it's not a display bug per se, all other apps can show 24 bit just fine. Marking the entire phone down because of a single app is really rather lame. There are apps that can replace the stock app quite nicely.

That said, the above site shows the iPhone 4 as having a 24 bit display, but I can't find anything that officially says it has a 24 bit display, just blogs that have no reference, or reference another blog. The 3GS and the iPad have 18 bit displays. Could the iPhone 4 have an 18 bit display, too?

 

[Ayman250]

Guys you hav to realise a company is a company if if sounds too good to be rrue than it probably is. The Droid x like the evo are close in price, so the companies will both chean out on certain things, if the Droid x has touch screen anything like the original droid than I don't anywhere near it.

 

[EarlyMon]

That's a bug in the PhotoGallery that comes with stock Android 2.1, it's not a display bug per se, all other apps can show 24 bit just fine. Marking the entire phone down because of a single app is really rather lame. There are apps that can replace the stock app quite nicely.

Hey - I gotta stick up for the guy. All he said was the gallery app - I didn't see any slagging in what he wrote.

That said, the above site shows the iPhone 4 as having a 24 bit display, but I can't find anything that officially says it has a 24 bit display, just blogs that have no reference, or reference another blog. The 3GS and the iPad have 18 bit displays. Could the iPhone 4 have an 18 bit display, too?

No blog info is reliable.

All of these phones could have 16 bit displays and use post-processing - already available in chips, off the shelf today for mobile use - that give the appearance of being higher color.

Or - it's just exactly as the PC mag article says.

References or not, only insiders know for sure because there's lie, damn lies, statistics and then there's specs.

As long as it looks good, that's what we really care about.

The Evo, compared to others, could look better. That does seem to be a fact.

Whether it matters hugely, that does seem to be an opinion.

In my opinion.

 

[IOWA]

or a Samsung piece of garbage. EVO Rocks as is! No need for a gazillion colors.

Yeah, no need for more colors, that make the picture clearer, more vibrant and diverse. Hell, just to save energy, why don't we go back to Green & Black LCD.

 

[freeza]

Yeah, no need for more colors, that make the picture clearer, more vibrant and diverse. Hell, just to save energy, why don't we go back to Green & Black LCD.

Ah, I remember the days working with a green&black (matrix!!) command line macintosh!

 

[EarlyMon]

We could replace the displays with thermal printers and roll paper. That could become the basis for a new form of social art.

Or what would be really interesting - we could just replace the displays altogether and use pico projectors. Your phone could then have a clamshell formfactor, with the top part just acting as the projection screen - everything else, including touch input, would be in the bottom. Let the top also fold all the around to the other side of the phone - now your projector can go up 60 or 70" and you could still access your touch input. Buh bye, touchscreen, hello simpler, more reliable trackpad with completely superior display.

Somebody just now owes me for the idea.

PS -

http://www.microvision.com/technology/picop.html

 

[EarlyMon]

Guys you hav to realise a company is a company if if sounds too good to be rrue than it probably is. The Droid x like the evo are close in price, so the companies will both chean out on certain things, if the Droid x has touch screen anything like the original droid than I don't anywhere near it.

Or what they saved without a 4G radio, they put into a better display.

You tell me, then we'll both know.

 

[Ayman250]

I would rather have 4g than numbers on a benchmark app. They are both using similar cpusslowness on the evo if there is any will come from sense, which I am ok, with because sense us by far the best ui and blur is worse than normal android UI.

 

[mikeyandroid]

I installed Photoshop.com mobile and it displays both the red and gray gradients without banding every time, so it certainly looks like the display itself is 24 bit. I even got out my 10x loupe and examined the image under magnification: it definitely is not dithered. It's continuous tone color. Certainly looks to me like the hardware is capable of 24 bit color and it's just a matter of software.

I saw that table showing the Droid X as 24 bit hardware with 16 bit software and the Evo as 16 bit hardware AND software. Where did that come from and who came up with that? I think it might be pure conjecture because it looks wrong! I believe the hardware is capable of 24 bit.

Mike

 

[ARR22]

1. Any Evo vs. Iphone comparisons where the Evo doesn't come out on top is a conspiracy perpetrated by "biased Apple fanboys" who are "idiots" and should be boycotted.

2. Any Evo vs. another android phone comparisons where the Evo doesn't come out on top are based on tests that really don't matter in the real world and thus are "irrelevant".

3. Anyone who complains about "minor" issues such as light leakage, screen separation, poor battery, random reboots, grounding issues, unresponsive screen, or 30fps caps are either seeing things that aren't there or are just being "anal whiners".

4. Any Evo owner who has the nerve to post a thread about their personal experience or dissatisfaction with their Evo are "trolls" just trying to cause trouble because, afterall, this is an Evo forum.

5. Any Evo owner or Evo enthusiast who posts threads in the Evo forum detailing problems with the Iphone are one of the good guys.

6. Any Evo owner who posts an "I love my Evo", "Evo Rocks", "Evo FTW", or any other "feel good" thread should be thanked for the usefulness of their contribution to the forum.

Hopefully, this clarifies our position on the matter.

I guess im just a crazy anal person that is hallucinating. This was my phone before I exchanged it for a good one.

 

[mrspeedmaster]

I saw that table showing the Droid X as 24 bit hardware with 16 bit software and the Evo as 16 bit hardware AND software. Where did that come from and who came up with that? I think it might be pure conjecture because it looks wrong! I believe the hardware is capable of 24 bit.

Sorry to burst your bubble but it is PUBLISHED specs
Straight from sprint. Same with Incredible.

Again, published from the horses mouth:

Full Link:
Sprint Nextel Corporation - Investor Relations - RSS Content


This is was what was given to the medial outlet.

Main display: 4.3” WVGA (800x480) 65K colors

 

[IOWA]

Sorry to burst your bubble but it is PUBLISHED specs
Straight from sprint. Same with Incredible.

Again, published from the horses mouth:

Full Link:
Sprint Nextel Corporation - Investor Relations - RSS Content


This is was what was given to the medial outlet.

Published specs don't count.


/joke

 

[freeza]

I guess im just a crazy anal person that is hallucinating. This was my phone before I exchanged it for a good one.

ouchh

 

[Deleted User]

Yeah, no need for more colors, that make the picture clearer, more vibrant and diverse. Hell, just to save energy, why don't we go back to Green & Black LCD.

You kid, but.... you should read this and this

 

[IOWA]

You kid, but.... you should read this and this

Actually I have read those.

 

[EarlyMon]

Sorry to burst your bubble but it is PUBLISHED specs
Straight from sprint. Same with Incredible.

As someone mentioned -

References or not, only insiders know for sure because there's lie, damn lies, statistics and then there's specs.

Just like they said the hardware was was limited to 30 fps - and we now know that that's not true.

For the same whatever reasoning, their rendition of the thing is at 64k colors (this just just in, 2^10=1024=1k, 2^16=65536=64k - so it's already NOT 65k and never was) - however - I believe - without shouting, thanks - that one test is worth a thousand expert opinions.

Mike here looked at it with different software and a 10x loupe - objective methods that are fully repeatable. I believe him, because I wasn't nuts - with the gradient pix (earlier in the thread), I too saw the 16-bit banding disappear.

It was conjecture on Sprint's part that they've tried to limit the color for whatever purpose and that no one would catch them - neither was it conjecture on Mike's part that this is another false barrier. He's simply found a verifiable method for what two others of us have observed.

PS - Here's an oldie but a goodie:

Specifications subject to change without notice.

 

[IOWA]

As someone mentioned -



Just like they said the hardware was was limited to 30 fps - and we now know that that's not true.

For the same whatever reasoning, their rendition of the thing is at 64k colors (this just just in, 2^10=1024=1k, 2^16=65536=64k - so it's already NOT 65k and never was) - however - I believe - without shouting, thanks - that one test is worth a thousand expert opinions.

Mike here looked at it with different software and a 10x loupe - objective methods that are fully repeatable. I believe him, because I wasn't nuts - with the gradient pix (earlier in the thread), I too saw the 16-bit banding disappear.

It was conjecture on Sprint's part that they've tried to limit the color for whatever purpose and that no one would catch them - neither was it conjecture on Mike's part that this is another false barrier. He's simply found a verifiable method for what two others of us have observed.

PS - Here's an oldie but a goodie:

Specifications subject to change without notice.

I can't believe HTC was dumb enough to believe that no-one would put that blatant lie to the test.

 

[EarlyMon]

I can't believe HTC was dumb enough to believe that no-one would put that blatant lie to the test.

I believe it was something they did in product development that was a good idea at the time.

I noted from digging around and just seeing what I had on my stock rooted phone that some of the stuff was tagged "Incredible" - interesting, no?

So - suppose - just suppose - they put some part of Incredible's s/w into this beast to put it out to market quicker.

Remember when HTC was in trouble before for half-baked video drivers?

 

[Deleted User]

I believe it was something they did in product development that was a good idea at the time.

I noted from digging around and just seeing what I had on my stock rooted phone that some of the stuff was tagged "Incredible" - interesting, no?

So - suppose - just suppose - they put some part of Incredible's s/w into this beast to put it out to market quicker.

Remember when HTC was in trouble before for half-baked video drivers?

What hardware rev/screen do you have?

I suppose it's remotely possible that some versions are hardware locked to 16 bit, but later versions are not simply because of what display hardware was available at time of construction. It's no secret HTC is having trouble getting a consistent supply of screens for their devices, to the point they're considering going in to the screen manufacturing business themselves, just to ensure a supply for their own devices.

Even if HTC were forced to put 24 bit capable displays in future EVOs, they'd still only sell/drive it as a 16 bit display. It would be too hard and make no business sense to do otherwise.

 

[IOWA]

I believe it was something they did in product development that was a good idea at the time.

I noted from digging around and just seeing what I had on my stock rooted phone that some of the stuff was tagged "Incredible" - interesting, no?

So - suppose - just suppose - they put some part of Incredible's s/w into this beast to put it out to market quicker.

Remember when HTC was in trouble before for half-baked video drivers?

Yeah but that was before these phones got so graphic intensive.

 

[EarlyMon]

What hardware rev/screen do you have?

002, got it on 6/6 - and I'm pretty sure it's the Novetel display (looks fab, btw).

So, that torpedoes your conjecture on later revs.

I suppose it's remotely possible that some versions are hardware locked to 16 bit, but later versions are not simply because of what display hardware was available at time of construction. It's no secret HTC is having trouble getting a consistent supply of screens for their devices, to the point they're considering going in to the screen manufacturing business themselves, just to ensure a supply for their own devices.

Whoa, nellie!

Where did you get that HTC would start producing OLED displays of any sort whatsoever? Do you know what that costs? Do you not believe that they'd be insane to attempt it? HTC is in the integration for mobile designs business - they're not in the fab or foundry businesses.

http://www.htc.com/www/about_htc.aspx

Even if HTC were forced to put 24 bit capable displays in future EVOs, they'd still only sell/drive it as a 16 bit display. It would be too hard and make no business sense to do otherwise.

No, but if they were balls to the wall busy integrating a new phone with a larger display and a 4G and FM radio and 8 MP camera, then it would make perfect sense to take some shortcuts on the video display driver software and the video camera software - in fact, it would make sense to take any number of software shortcuts.

And clearly - the display is 24-bit, has been since the first hardware.

1. I've no doubt that they were on the hook with a deadline to Sprint.
2. I've little doubt that they knew they were subscribing to a full 2.2 update to stay competitive anyway within this year.
3. So - if you were in their shoes - why not meet deadline and as the market cools with new stuff coming out, release 2.2 with a bunch of performance improvements?

If that's all they've done, they were not too dumb at all, in my opinion.

 

[EarlyMon]

Yeah but that was before these phones got so graphic intensive.

You're prolly right.

That said - while I'll stick up for the local thinking of designers, I'll rarely not question their mgmt.